What makes a great Valiant collection?

[shaxper]

I was looking through the online collections posted on this site, and realized that we use a very specific definition for a solid Valiant collection here. The objective is to have everything ever printed with the name Valiant on it post-Magnus #1. Valiant newspapers, trade paperbacks, and alternate editions count, yet (for example) Gold Key Magnus, Solar, and Turok issues do not.

I guess this really falls into a three part question:


1. Have exclusive variant editions (V.V.S.S., Gold and Platinum editions) taken some of the fun out of collecting?

Instead of having our eyes and hearts on key issues in which something important happened, it's all about rare limited editions that have no particular content of interest. From the point of view of a fan who appreciates Valiant for its stories, this makes no sense. And from a collector's point of view, I find the fact that Action Comics #1, which now sells for a million dollars mint, was once available on newsstands nationwide for ten cents. It's the excitement and unpredictability of collecting. Instead, the limited promotional editions were never available to average joes unless we were willing to pay our local comic dealer $30-$100 for one, even as they were just being released.

It's not that I specifically object to the fact that these issues are collectible, but more that they're considered so much more collectible and important than regular Valiant issues (even pre-Unity).


2. How come we don't concern ourselves with the Gold Key issues?

From the perspective of a Valiant fan, It seems to me that a Gold Key Magnus #1 (the guy's true first appearance) would be far more worthwhile to own than an entire set of Valiant Voice issues. While it's true that the Gold Key Solar and Turok issues don't tie in as neatly to Valiant continuity as the Magnus issues do, these are still these characters' earliest appearances, and at least the Gold Key Magnus issues are referenced throughout the first Valiant Magnus run. How come we, as a community, don't put more emphasis on these issues?[/b]


3. If we're going to collect Trade Paperback reprints and newspapers, just because they're published by Valiant, how come we don't consider the very first Valiant pre-Magnus comics collectible?

Shouldn't the VERY FIRST Valiant comic(s) count for something?

[whetteon]

1. Two reasons. a. Because 10 years ago I couldn't afford them when I wanted them. b. I have them and you don't. I think that pretty much sums up all collections in this industry.

2. I didn't grow up with them and therefore I have no desire to own them. I wouldn't mind owning a Dr. Solar #1 or Magnus 4000AD #1 in the future just for sakes of having them but... eh *shoulder shrug*

3. They aren't super-hero, they have no continuity and their stories didn't originate from Shooter, Layton and BWS.

Anything else I can help you with?

[justin]

Shaxper,

I find the retailer incentive a great aspect to collecting. I am collectively trying to gather all Dell/Gold Key, Valiant VH1, VH2 and VH3 for my collection.

-a

[ckb]

I'll put in my $0.02 on #3: The pre-hero valiants are VERY collectable.

These were printed in large numbers, but were sold out of the hobby mostly. They were not taken care of. And no dealers care about them, so they don't show up.

Trying to put together a 9.4+ set is one of the toughest tasks I have ever undertaken. Some of the Nintendo Comics System run never shows up period.

There was a warehouse type find on the WWF magazine sized books, which makes them available in high grade. But the VIAB are very hard to find in high grade.

I care about completing this set more than the hero books. I will always be able to find the hero books.

There's someone on the board who has a whole long box from a store that was closing, but we could not agree on a price, and he wouldn't let me cherry pick what I need. Contact me if you change your mind.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

1. Have exclusive variant editions (V.V.S.S., Gold and Platinum editions) taken some of the fun out of collecting?

Yes. Absolutely. It infuriates me to no end that comics companies have, in the last 15 years, decided to become mini-Franklin Mints, manufacturing 'instant collectibles' with prices far greater than average cover price at the time.

It infuriates me because, being an irrational completist, I don't consider my collections complete until I have EVERY authorized variation, which forces me (because there's no way in HELL I'm going to pay more than cover price for ANY brand new book) to wait until the variant is on the aftermarket for a while and sinks back down to what it originally would have been cover price wise in the first place. Try as I have to convince myself that I don't *need* those variants, I've been unable to do so for the better part of 15 years now. And yes...it REALLY *SQUEE* me off.

And what's even MORE bothersome is that the companies have this mistaken idea that it's the RETAILERS who deserved to get 'thank you' copies of books, for 'supporting' the publishers....

Ummm....last time I checked, it wasn't the couple thousand retailers who were the end users of these books....it was the MANY thousand CUSTOMERS who BOUGHT and READ the books that were. Without the CUSTOMERS, there would BE NO RETAILERS.....and yet, WITHOUT the retailers, there would, amazingly, still be customers! Fancy that!

So...sending out 'thank yous' to retailers for only doing HALF the job, and infuriating THOUSANDS of consumers in the process, doesn't seem a very smart way to run a business.

You want to do a variant as a 'thank you'? Do it unannounced, in equal numbers, like Legends of the Dark Knight #1....or even the 2nd Marvel issues of the past 7 years.

And this even spills into issues that you can't even GET as a regular issue, and have to be purchased as 'incentives'. Battle Chasers, Danger Girls, and Divine Right preludes come to mind, all of which were 'exclusives' of one company or another, all of which contained integral parts of the story, and all of which sold for more than the then current MSRP of the average book at the time, and were UNAVAILABLE as 'regular' issues until much later (if at all.)

For decades and decades, the industry didn't make 'collectibles'...they made entertainment. And...they made entertainment that EVERYONE had a potential chance of owning for 'cover price' when new.

2. How come we don't concern ourselves with the Gold Key issues?

This one's actually easy to discuss. Those books belong to an entirely different era, and while the character names and settings are basically the same, virtually everything else is different. That, and the fact that it's an entirely different company, which, for all intents and purposes, finished publishing nearly 20 years before 1991's Magnus #1. It's just not the same thing.


3. If we're going to collect Trade Paperback reprints and newspapers, just because they're published by Valiant, how come we don't consider the very first Valiant pre-Magnus comics collectible?

The reason those TPB's and newspapers are collected, again, is NOT because they have the Valiant logo on them...but because they refer to the superhero valiant universe. For example..lots of people don't conisder pre-Horror EC to be 'part of' a complete EC collection, though EC published comics for YEARS before W Gaines launched the horror line in late 1949-early 1950. Likewise, lots of folks don't consider 'Marvel' comics to inlcude anything published BEFORE FF #1 to be necessary for a complete collection (although they are DAMN cool!)

This website is one of those.

That said, there ARE people, even on this board, who collect the pre-super hero Valiant. It's just not within the scope of THIS website.

[cjv]

The way I look at it, there are multiple levels to collecting Valiant.

There is the collector who just wants to have every story line for VH-1. They will get ragged copies, tpb, whatever, just so they can read the entire universe.

At the next level is a collector who wants to have one of every regular comic, for collecting purposes. They aren't going to care about variants, they may or may not care about coupons or promos cut out of comics, etc.

Then we have the collector who wants to have one of each VH-1 issue put out - variants, golds, VVSS, etc. Some people will take this to the extreme and also want the glossy/regular Rai 0's, direct/newstand editions, etc.

Then we have the Valiant/Acclaim collector who wants to collect one of everything that Valiant and Acclaim put out, including VH-1, VH-2, VH-3, pre VH-1, etc.

ANd there are people in between as well. Some people may want all VH-1 and TPB's, but not variants. Some people want to include cards or promo items.

But ultimately it comes down to want *you* want. If you want something for what you consider a complete collection, go for it. If not, don't worry about it.

Chris

[x-omatic]

I was looking through the online collections posted on this site, and realized that we use a very specific definition for a solid Valiant collection here. The objective is to have everything ever printed with the name Valiant on it post-Magnus #1. Valiant newspapers, trade paperbacks, and alternate editions count, yet (for example) Gold Key Magnus, Solar, and Turok issues do not.

I guess this really falls into a three part question:


1. Have exclusive variant editions (V.V.S.S., Gold and Platinum editions) taken some of the fun out of collecting?

Instead of having our eyes and hearts on key issues in which something important happened, it's all about rare limited editions that have no particular content of interest. From the point of view of a fan who appreciates Valiant for its stories, this makes no sense. And from a collector's point of view, I find the fact that Action Comics #1, which now sells for a million dollars mint, was once available on newsstands nationwide for ten cents. It's the excitement and unpredictability of collecting. Instead, the limited promotional editions were never available to average joes unless we were willing to pay our local comic dealer $30-$100 for one, even as they were just being released.

It's not that I specifically object to the fact that these issues are collectible, but more that they're considered so much more collectible and important than regular Valiant issues (even pre-Unity).

The inventory is broken up into different sections. Because everyone doesn't collect the same. It is only in order of most points.
There are the following sections.
1) Regualr Issues
2) Incentives, Variants, Sendaways & Promos
3) Reprints & Trade Paper backs
4) V.V.S.S.
5) Valiant Voice

If you look you can have 100% of one and not concern yourself with the others. You just will not have the most points.

[magnusr]

1. Have exclusive variant editions (V.V.S.S., Gold and Platinum editions) taken some of the fun out of collecting?

Not in the Valiant case as they were giving them away to the fans.

2. How come we don't concern ourselves with the Gold Key issues?

I do...

3. If we're going to collect Trade Paperback reprints and newspapers, just because they're published by Valiant, how come we don't consider the very first Valiant pre-Magnus comics collectible?

I do, but just as for Gold Key, it is not at all the same priority as the core titles. They are on a secondary level. The reprints do relate to the primary level, so they feel more important.

Next question: How about grade? My very nearly complete collection is mainly reading copies. I'm not a grader but I doubt there's many NMs in there and I've never cared. Before CGC I wondered if NM comics could really be found. That's actually a point for the variants - these at least are always taken good care of. Anyway, since story is so central for most of us, what's the point of slabbed comics? I have bought a few and traded one away. It's fun to have, and maybe that answers many of your questions. Apart from reading the comics and making sure to have them all, there's also the aspect of things that it is fun to have. Of course, in collecting you want as unique items as possible and grading helps qualify the objects. And there's also the monetary aspect. There is a reward in knowing that theoretically you can get your money back one day...

Most of all, what makes a great collection is the collection that its owner enjoys and can show to friends and have them enjoy as well without jealousy.

/Magnus

[cinlach@aol.com]

here's my take on it.
i'm in this thing for the stories first and foremost. which takes out the wwf and nintendo comics almost immediately. i have no interest in reading about mario, wario or whoever the hell else is running thru all those books. i actually have a nintendo book that a buddy of mine gave me for christmas. i've never opened it once.

as for the variants (gold logos, vvss, etc.), i love the gold logo books because they were truly given away to the fans. they're limited and they make me remember a time when comic companies actually appreciated their fans and took care of them (thanks jon hartz!). however, the vvss books weren't given away. they were sold. and while i understand that they were produced in numbers much more limited then the gold logo books they are ultimately simply autographed copies. granted, they are direct from the source copies, with the numbering and the cool imprinted seal. but for me, if i want a book signed i'll just wait until that creator shows up and then i can have any book i want signed. besides, i think those things are stupid expensive. before i'd spend that much money on one of them i could do a lot, i mean a lot of filling on my other books.

now on to gold key/whitman...these books do count for me. they're the reason i read valiant in the first place. when i was little my grandmother used to take me every friday to a local department store. they had these whitman sampler comic packs there and i'd get one every week. sometimes i'd get star trek or daffy duck. sometimes i'd get trogg and the sky gods or turok, magnus and solar. i loved those things when i was a kid and unfortunately i didnt take good care of them and now they're gone.

for me i guess i collect what i have an almost emotional attachment to.
the gold logos and old gold key/whitman books give me the warm fuzzies and the vvss just doesn't. that doesn't diminish their value in my eyes but it's just not something i feel like i need to have right now. once i complete my regular run (23 issues away!) and fill in my golds and stuff we'll see if my thoughts have changed.

[lobo]

1. Have exclusive variant editions (V.V.S.S., Gold and Platinum editions) taken some of the fun out of collecting?

Yes. Absolutely. It infuriates me to no end that comics companies have, in the last 15 years, decided to become mini-Franklin Mints, manufacturing 'instant collectibles' with prices far greater than average cover price at the time.

It infuriates me because, being an irrational completist, I don't consider my collections complete until I have EVERY authorized variation, which forces me (because there's no way in HELL I'm going to pay more than cover price for ANY brand new book) to wait until the variant is on the aftermarket for a while and sinks back down to what it originally would have been cover price wise in the first place. Try as I have to convince myself that I don't *need* those variants, I've been unable to do so for the better part of 15 years now. And yes...it REALLY *SQUEE* me off.

Heehee.... there goes Zephyr, wanting his cake and eating it to!
I'm pleased to see that you are actually considering the option of paying cover price for a new release!

Variant comics, produced purposely or by mistake, will almost always go for a premium. Those who want one will have to pay the going price, and complaining about the cost at the same time while emptying your wallet for the purchase is in bad taste. Nobody is holding a gun to your head making you buy these variant 'collectibles'. Life will go on if you don't own it. Irrational completionist indeed!

For the record, I really enjoy collecting the Valiant 'color' variants and I have a ton of them to show for it. The VVSS and even the trades don't excite me and I don't actively go out searching for them. I do own a few VVSS issues only because they were available very cheap at the time. I have complete runs of the regular books and that is completionist enough for me.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Variant comics, produced purposely or by mistake, will almost always go for a premium. Those who want one will have to pay the going price, and complaining about the cost at the same time while emptying your wallet for the purchase is in bad taste. Nobody is holding a gun to your head making you buy these variant 'collectibles'. Life will go on if you don't own it. Irrational completionist indeed!

Who said anything about being forced to buy them by anything other than my own irrational completist mentality? I thought I already said that. Pretty sure I did. Yes, life WILL go on if I don't own it. That's why I said I was an 'irrational completist', try as I might to not be. Soooooo.....what's your point?

And NO, variants DO NOT almost always go for a 'premium' (whatever that means to you, I assume over cover price, though it can mean ANY amount over the current market value for the 'regular' book), because the VAST MAJORITY of variants produced are 'worthless' in terms of selling for a 'premiuum' over their regular counterparts. They sell for the same, and even less in some instances.

So no, there's no 'cake and eat it to'...I don't empty my wallet to pay those premiums...never have, never will. You totally missed the point....yes, I will pay the 'going price' for one...WHEN and IF the 'going price' is equivalent to what it SHOULD have cost as a regular issue at the time of original release. I DO NOT...repeat, DO NOT...pay the 'MSRP' for variant comics, PERIOD, under ANY circumstances, at the time of release, UNLESS said variants are the same price as the regular issus. I AM one of those 'voice your dissatisfaction by simply choosing not to purchase' kinds of people, so I don't fall under your 'complaining about the price and then paying it anyways' comment.

If, however, a particular variant manages to maintain or surpass it's MSRP in actual market value, and I have the opportunity to pay LESS THAN current market value, I will do so, and sell it on eBay. That's just smart business.

Read it again, you missed the entire point. The vast majority of variants (for example, any of the Vampirella Royal Blue, limited to 100 copies, original MSRP $59.95...which I routinely buy from Harris for $15-$20 each..because that's current MARKET value) are worth less, and usually MUCH, MUCH less than the 'MSRP'.

....JUST LIKE those Franklin Mint 'collectibles'....

[lobo]

Variant comics, produced purposely or by mistake, will almost always go for a premium. Those who want one will have to pay the going price, and complaining about the cost at the same time while emptying your wallet for the purchase is in bad taste. Nobody is holding a gun to your head making you buy these variant 'collectibles'. Life will go on if you don't own it. Irrational completionist indeed!

Who said anything about being forced to buy them by anything other than my own irrational completist mentality? I thought I already said that. Pretty sure I did. Yes, life WILL go on if I don't own it. That's why I said I was an 'irrational completist', try as I might to not be. Soooooo.....what's your point?

And NO, variants DO NOT almost always go for a 'premium' (whatever that means to you, I assume over cover price, though it can mean ANY amount over the current market value for the 'regular' book), because the VAST MAJORITY of variants produced are 'worthless' in terms of selling for a 'premiuum' over their regular counterparts. They sell for the same, and even less in some instances.

So no, there's no 'cake and eat it to'...I don't empty my wallet to pay those premiums...never have, never will. You totally missed the point....yes, I will pay the 'going price' for one...WHEN and IF the 'going price' is equivalent to what it SHOULD have cost as a regular issue at the time of original release. I DO NOT...repeat, DO NOT...pay the 'MSRP' for variant comics, PERIOD, under ANY circumstances, at the time of release, UNLESS said variants are the same price as the regular issus. I AM one of those 'voice your dissatisfaction by simply choosing not to purchase' kinds of people, so I don't fall under your 'complaining about the price and then paying it anyways' comment.

If, however, a particular variant manages to maintain or surpass it's MSRP in actual market value, and I have the opportunity to pay LESS THAN current market value, I will do so, and sell it on eBay. That's just smart business.

Read it again, you missed the entire point. The vast majority of variants (for example, any of the Vampirella Royal Blue, limited to 100 copies, original MSRP $59.95...which I routinely buy from Harris for $15-$20 each..because that's current MARKET value) are worth less, and usually MUCH, MUCH less than the 'MSRP'.

....JUST LIKE those Franklin Mint 'collectibles'....

I did not miss your point at all Zephyr.... I just like yanking your chain. Its so easy to wind you up. I always like reading through your wordy retorts, they make it impossible for anyone to miss your point.

My remarks were very general and not solely directed at you. Bottom line was that too many people participate in this hobby of collecting and reading comics that like to *SQUEE* and complain about 'issues' that seem very trivial to the rest of us.

[shaxper]

Whoa, this topic sure took off!

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but my computer was down with a pretty bad virus for the last day and a half.

I think you all have excellent points, and I'm truly excited to see that there are fans of the old Gold Key issues here.

I think, as a big fan of story and a moderate fan of collectibility, my policy is generally that anything that was once available on the stands (or, in the case of send away issues, affects continuity or storyline) are fair game. I don't bother with gold emblems and VVSS issues, just because I don't see any point to it other than being a completist or making an investment (and Valiant investments are awfully risky right now).

As a result, I DO have three copies of the blue Rai TPB (how cool that there are only 5,000 copies of something I found for cover price in a regular comic store!), and if I ever found a copy of the legendary Bloodshot platinum issue, I'd be all over it. I suppose if someone offered me a VVSS Rai #9 or a Gold A&A #0 for cover price, I'd take it; but I'm certainly not looking.

With Gold Key, I think those Magnus issues, however different in style, ARE essential to the V1 Magnus titles. You won't know who Dr. Noel, Danae, the Wolfpack, Malev 6, or T1 are without them. Leeja and Senator/President Clane are reintroduced, but everything else continues from those issues as if you'd read them. Plus, I truly LIKE the original Magnus title better. Magnus is still my favorite Valiant title overall, but nothing beats Russ Maning's work.

That being said, I collect Doctor Solar just because. I love the Valiant Solar, so I find it amusing. The stories aren't that good and don't affect the Valiant title. I've also never touched Turok in either universe. I don't find him interesting.


As for the nintendo titles, I have no desire to collect them all, but I do think it would be something to own the very first comic published by Valiant, regardless of quality and creative staff, since I have such high regard for what the company did.

[DJSpecter]

As for the extreme complete collection, does anyone bother to get ahold of the Acclaim Classics Illustrated? Wow, those were a waste of money.

-Dave

[magnusr]

As for the extreme complete collection, does anyone bother to get ahold of the Acclaim Classics Illustrated? Wow, those were a waste of money.

-Dave

Got the art for one that was never published. Have tried to find the real CI issue since. It's quite interesting to see how they've recreated the art from an old comic.

/Magnus

[Brett]

Just a thought:

The Dell/Gold key books are eliminated because they are set in the Valiant universe but are not Valiant books.

The NES/WWF books are eliminated because they are Valiant books but are not set in the Valiant universe.

The VH2 books are in even though they are not really Valiant books and are not really set in the Valiant universe.



I'm just being difficult though. I pretty much agree with what this site encompasses.

[greg]

Just a thought:

The Dell/Gold key books are eliminated because they are set in the Valiant universe but are not Valiant books.

The NES/WWF books are eliminated because they are Valiant books but are not set in the Valiant universe.

The VH2 books are in even though they are not really Valiant books and are not really set in the Valiant universe.



I'm just being difficult though. I pretty much agree with what this site encompasses.

Actually, if I really wanted to "do it my way, and my way only"...
There wouldn't be any Acclaim books on this website.
They have a company, a website, and employees...
they should be advertising their own books!

The "universe" featured on this site would
start with Magnus #1 and end with X-O #68...
but who am I to be judge, jury, and executioner...




Hey, wait a minute...