Confused about new Valiant Books series.

[1ForChrist]

I'm just starting to get involved with the New Valiant Universe. I see there are different Bloodshot books coming out X-O books, etc...

Are these books coming out concurrently or is it a new series that ties into the previous issues (meaning previous 2012 launch issues). Is this another DC New 52, then the Rebirth kind of thing?

Thanks.

[Phoenix8008]

It's not a universe reboot thing.

The way Valiant has been working it since the 2012 relaunch has been doing one series per 'story' that a writer wanted to tell. So, there was a Bloodshot series starting in 2012 which ran 25 issues, then ended. Then, after the mini-series 'The Valiant', there was a new series called Bloodshot Reborn which started under a different writer. It ran for 18 issues before ending/transferring into the mini series Bloodshot USA. There has been word that another title, Bloodshot Salvation, is going to continue the story after that, but it's not been solicited yet, so we don't know if it's going to be another mini series, or another ongoing series.

Same thing with Archer & Armstrong having 2 different series by 2 different writers. Same with Harbinger/Harbinger Renegade. Same with the first X-O series (#1-50) and the upcoming X-O series starting in March. They prefer to start a new title to get that new #1 issue for sales, but they aren't undoing the cannon or the universe or anything.

Here is a pretty good list of the titles they've put out (based on release order) including how many issues it ran, if it was a mini or an ongoing, and what other series it's connected to.

[Keith]

That page is awesome, Phoenix! Great work!

[Phoenix8008]

That page is awesome, Phoenix! Great work!

Thanks sir. I try and keep it fairly updated, but it's been a few months since I scoured it to make many changes.

[Shadowman99]

I think that a fairly simple way to understand what Valiant do with their comic titles is this:

Each comic is basically one consecutive story, so for instance 'Bloodshot' is the one and only Bloodshot comic.
The titles however are more like chapter headings in a book, so whilst there appear to be multiple titles concerning one character/group like with Bloodshot in particular, the titles are just ways of segregating significant overarching plots within the overall title, such as Bloodshot>Bloodshot and HARD Corps>Bloodshot Reborn>Bloodshot USA.

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be any easy way to immediately tell which subtitle is placed where in the overall story, so that's simply up to the interested individual to either ask someone who knows and can tell them the answer, or do a little online research and find out themselves.

One important thing to note, which I repeat considering other users having already said it only for the sake of emphasis, is that VEI have not yet to date rebooted the universe, any titles or any characters and the multiple titles per comic having nothing to do with reboots in any way.

[greg]

Good work Phoenix8008

[1ForChrist]

I think that a fairly simple way to understand what Valiant do with their comic titles is this:

Each comic is basically one consecutive story, so for instance 'Bloodshot' is the one and only Bloodshot comic.
The titles however are more like chapter headings in a book, so whilst there appear to be multiple titles concerning one character/group like with Bloodshot in particular, the titles are just ways of segregating significant overarching plots within the overall title, such as Bloodshot>Bloodshot and HARD Corps>Bloodshot Reborn>Bloodshot USA.

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be any easy way to immediately tell which subtitle is placed where in the overall story, so that's simply up to the interested individual to either ask someone who knows and can tell them the answer, or do a little online research and find out themselves.

One important thing to note, which I repeat considering other users having already said it only for the sake of emphasis, is that VEI have not yet to date rebooted the universe, any titles or any characters and the multiple titles per comic having nothing to do with reboots in any way.

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

[jmatt]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

[Phoenix8008]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

Agreed.

[Shadowman99]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

Agreed.

Yeah, I don't think it's particularly easy for new readers to understand the approach immediately, which I think from a sales perspective is an important part of the game: the easier and quicker you can make it for your customer to buy your product the better. I think the multiple subtitle approach is probably just confusing to new readers for the most part.

Probably, in say ten years time, I'll myself have forgotten which order these comics came out in and will have to spend time online figuring it all out again because it's not clear from just looking at the covers...

[mkb28]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

Yep, I thought the same thing as I read his post.

[ShadowTuga]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

How many peeps will say "oh nevermind, whatever" and walk away from a Valiant book? Rethoric question, but this is real- it is confusing for new readers to know where to start.

[Shadowman99]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

How many peeps will say "oh nevermind, whatever" and walk away from a Valiant book? Rethoric question, but this is real- it is confusing for new readers to know where to start.

I don't know about you guys, but having into comics 'late' I'd never dream of getting into Marvel or DC books seriously because I just can't be bothered with the sheer number of multiple titles for just one character/group: it's way too confusing and off-putting for me.

Anytime I walk into a comic shop and see something interesting that I've not come across before I'll skip it every time if it's not a #1 issue because I just can't be doing with the hassle of having to chase something I'm already behind on.

I think to some degree that any comic that isn't a standalone series will always eventually succumb to 'reader confusion' once it starts linking to other comics in the universe or starts publishing under multiple titles/subtitles so to me it's a problem inherent to the medium, but unfortunate nonetheless.

[ShadowTuga]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

How many peeps will say "oh nevermind, whatever" and walk away from a Valiant book? Rethoric question, but this is real- it is confusing for new readers to know where to start.

I don't know about you guys, but having into comics 'late' I'd never dream of getting into Marvel or DC books seriously because I just can't be bothered with the sheer number of multiple titles for just one character/group: it's way too confusing and off-putting for me.

Anytime I walk into a comic shop and see something interesting that I've not come across before I'll skip it every time if it's not a #1 issue because I just can't be doing with the hassle of having to chase something I'm already behind on.

I think to some degree that any comic that isn't a standalone series will always eventually succumb to 'reader confusion' once it starts linking to other comics in the universe or starts publishing under multiple titles/subtitles so to me it's a problem inherent to the medium, but unfortunate nonetheless.

The times are completely different when people would see Detective Comics in its 400s/500s and jumped in because they wanted to read about Bats. X-Men and Spider are other examples: if it was REAL good, peeps would jump in, and chase the back issues, which were nowhere near as available as they are today. You can literally read every Uncanny X-Men book since its start, both in digi or collections.
Valiant could try to steer the wheel in the direction of yesterday: if the stories are good, who cares about numbers being high? In fact, as many point, it is a sign of stability. I personally LOVED when Rebirth put 'Tec and Action comics in their OG numbering.
But we're talking about Superman and Batman. Valiant can not compete with the staying power of these 2 alone.
So, what can be done? Renumbering and making these different volumes for each character that should have a steady ongoing title since day 1? Does that help in the long-term (which I think it's VEI'S goal- to stick around for years and years and years)? We are precisely talking about how confusing it is, and its only 5 years.
Ten years from now, if there's not a "Veiverse guide" easily accessible to anyone, the mess will be so much bigger.

So.. what is more confusing? Having hundreds of back issues that share the exact same title or dozens of different series to search, that are connected to a character, yes, but must be read in a very precise chronological way to make any sense to a newbie?

My answer is obviously, the latter, IMHO.

[Phoenix8008]

Seeing the cover for the upcoming new X-O series sparked a question in my mind that pertains to this thread's subject matter. First, here's the cover I'm talking about:





So, I had been thinking it was strange that VEI was starting a new X-O series, with no new/additional subtitle (like adding Renegade to Harbinger). Looking at this cover though, I saw it for the first time as maybe 'X-O Manowar: Soldier'. But I remember from the marketing for this story that they talked about Aric going from SOLDIER to GENERAL to EMPEROR to VISIGOTH. This morning I thought: What if they are making it four separate mini series?! X-O Manowar: Soldier #1-4, then X-O Manowar: General #1-4, and so on. They've talked about this being an ongoing series with plans for a year or more or story, so I really hope that's not the case. That would be even more confusing that just having a new X-O Manowar(2017) series with no additional subtitle besides the year designation. Time will tell I guess.

I'd still rather have this as issue #51, but I'm not trying to fight that battle here again. I know the arguments for both sides, and I know I'm on the losing side (between my wishes and what the publisher is just gonna do anyway, not necessarily on the losing side of the argument between the different camps of fans and what we each prefer concerning longer continuous series' vs. multiple shorter series').

[greg]

Those are the names of the arcs. X-O Manowar #11 is already announced. They aren't doing #1-#4, #1-#4, etc.
http://valiantuniverse.com/2016/12/05/v ... -in-march/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Phoenix8008]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

How many peeps will say "oh nevermind, whatever" and walk away from a Valiant book? Rethoric question, but this is real- it is confusing for new readers to know where to start.

I don't know about you guys, but having into comics 'late' I'd never dream of getting into Marvel or DC books seriously because I just can't be bothered with the sheer number of multiple titles for just one character/group: it's way too confusing and off-putting for me.

Anytime I walk into a comic shop and see something interesting that I've not come across before I'll skip it every time if it's not a #1 issue because I just can't be doing with the hassle of having to chase something I'm already behind on.

I think to some degree that any comic that isn't a standalone series will always eventually succumb to 'reader confusion' once it starts linking to other comics in the universe or starts publishing under multiple titles/subtitles so to me it's a problem inherent to the medium, but unfortunate nonetheless.

I agree that eventually there is going to be some level of reader confusion no matter what you do. But I wanted to address your point of staying away from longer running series and only getting things that are starting at a #1 issue, because I was there 32 years ago!

I had loved Spider-Man as a kid. I have a polaroid pic of me in the back yard in my Spider-Man Halloween costume. I loved the 'Spider-Man and his amazing friends' cartoon I grew up with. I saw comics here and there (in the grocery stores on those godawful spinner racks that destroyed them!), and was interested, but I saw all the Spider-Man titles were in the hundreds of issues already. So I stayed away. Until my sister won a comic book at a school fair. She didn't want it, so she gave it to me: Web of Spider-Man #1!



I started collecting this series as my first foray into comic books. I loved the stories. I've always been more story driven than art or gimmick driven. I ran into a problem though: Crossovers. Multi-title crossovers were my undoing. In order to have the whole story I had to start getting the other Spider-Man titles as well. And once I had started getting them, well, I had to try and get what I could of their back issues as well.

My point is this: Even if you only start at getting a new series at a #1, you may well get hooked into that character enough to be willing to expand out to other series that are already ongoing, even if they have longer runs of back issues. Or you may like the interactions with other characters seen in the series you are collecting enough that you become willing to expand further into the shared universe itself and pick up other titles in general. Again, even if some of the other series are already ongoing with a bit of a run already established. Comics are like an infectious disease. Once you let them into your life, they'll just fester and grow to consume more of it!

[Phoenix8008]

Those are the names of the arcs. X-O Manowar #11 is already announced. They aren't doing #1-#4, #1-#4, etc.
http://valiantuniverse.com/2016/12/05/v ... -in-march/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GOOD.

Thanks for the link Greg, I hadn't seen that page before detailing in that way. I figured it was likely the names of each story arc, but at this point I couldn't put it past them doing each arc as it's own mini-series. Look at how they're doing Bloodshot recently for proof of that. We still don't know if BS:Salvation is going to be an ongoing or another mini-series (unless that's been announced somewhere already that I've missed).

[Sunlight on Snow]

Thanks, was a little confused about the mulitple Bloodshot comics and thinking it was like an Amazing Spider-Man comic with Spectacular Spider-Man and Web of Spider-man all out concurrently and not connected in anyway besides Spider-Man.

And here we see the peril in the mini-series story arc paradigm: new reader confusion.

How many peeps will say "oh nevermind, whatever" and walk away from a Valiant book? Rethoric question, but this is real- it is confusing for new readers to know where to start.

I don't know about you guys, but having into comics 'late' I'd never dream of getting into Marvel or DC books seriously because I just can't be bothered with the sheer number of multiple titles for just one character/group: it's way too confusing and off-putting for me.

Anytime I walk into a comic shop and see something interesting that I've not come across before I'll skip it every time if it's not a #1 issue because I just can't be doing with the hassle of having to chase something I'm already behind on.

I think to some degree that any comic that isn't a standalone series will always eventually succumb to 'reader confusion' once it starts linking to other comics in the universe or starts publishing under multiple titles/subtitles so to me it's a problem inherent to the medium, but unfortunate nonetheless.

The times are completely different when people would see Detective Comics in its 400s/500s and jumped in because they wanted to read about Bats. X-Men and Spider are other examples: if it was REAL good, peeps would jump in, and chase the back issues, which were nowhere near as available as they are today. You can literally read every Uncanny X-Men book since its start, both in digi or collections.
Valiant could try to steer the wheel in the direction of yesterday: if the stories are good, who cares about numbers being high? In fact, as many point, it is a sign of stability. I personally LOVED when Rebirth put 'Tec and Action comics in their OG numbering.
But we're talking about Superman and Batman. Valiant can not compete with the staying power of these 2 alone.
So, what can be done? Renumbering and making these different volumes for each character that should have a steady ongoing title since day 1? Does that help in the long-term (which I think it's VEI'S goal- to stick around for years and years and years)? We are precisely talking about how confusing it is, and its only 5 years.
Ten years from now, if there's not a "Veiverse guide" easily accessible to anyone, the mess will be so much bigger.

So.. what is more confusing? Having hundreds of back issues that share the exact same title or dozens of different series to search, that are connected to a character, yes, but must be read in a very precise chronological way to make any sense to a newbie?

My answer is obviously, the latter, IMHO.

When it comes to shared superhero comics there will always be confusion and someone asking where to start reading, what is essential, and what not? This cannot be avoided at some point and I don't see any difference between the Big 2 and Valiant although the confusion may be caused by different things - constant reboots vs. changing titles vs. switching genders. For a new reader it will always be better to start reading with a #1 issue than a much higher number. Then once you're more invested in a series and character (no matter the title and numbering) a little research has to be done anyway. If the guy at your LCS doesn't know about the release and reading order then the internet will be your friend.

[Shadowman99]

I started collecting this series as my first foray into comic books. I loved the stories. I've always been more story driven than art or gimmick driven. I ran into a problem though: Crossovers. Multi-title crossovers were my undoing. In order to have the whole story I had to start getting the other Spider-Man titles as well. And once I had started getting them, well, I had to try and get what I could of their back issues as well.

My point is this: Even if you only start at getting a new series at a #1, you may well get hooked into that character enough to be willing to expand out to other series that are already ongoing, even if they have longer runs of back issues. Or you may like the interactions with other characters seen in the series you are collecting enough that you become willing to expand further into the shared universe itself and pick up other titles in general. Again, even if some of the other series are already ongoing with a bit of a run already established. Comics are like an infectious disease. Once you let them into your life, they'll just fester and grow to consume more of it!

I know what you mean: I actually had exactly that happen with Valiant. I first went out and bought Shadowman #1 and loved it. As I recall, I think I got talking to Phantom and he told me a bit about the rest of the Valiant universe and I did a little 'net research myself, and I started picking up comics that started from #1 following the release of Shadowman, which I think was Bloodshot, Harbinger, and later Quantum and Woody and Eternal Warrior. I enjoyed these other comics and eventually decided that I wanted to read everything that Valiant put out so picked up a few back issues of the only two comics I hadn't yet read (XO and Archer and Armstrong) and was set!

Not sure I appreciate the negative connotations of your disease analogy however; for me comics are an easy hobby and are nothing but a good thing, no matter how many more comics I find myself wanting to read these days