How is Valiant going to repair Jack?

[armlessphelan]

I just finished Shadowman End Times. I'd skipped it because the end of the ongoing was not great. The Ninjak arc was good, but Jack became so unlikable which is unfortunate because he was my fave VH1 character. The rest the character got was necessary and I'm wondering what exactly Valiant can do to make him a compelling lead. At this point, I feel a complete personality overhaul may be the only thing.

[TheeBaldMoose]

http://www.outrightgeekery.com/2016/10/ ... inverse-1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the Aric 1 shot, it mentions a surprise attack from the Deadside. Could this be lead by Shadowman? Can death be changed by the living? Could the Deadside be swayed, thus changing Shadowman's past, just like everyone else?

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[Zhuge1]

I just finished Shadowman End Times. I'd skipped it because the end of the ongoing was not great. The Ninjak arc was good, but Jack became so unlikable which is unfortunate because he was my fave VH1 character. The rest the character got was necessary and I'm wondering what exactly Valiant can do to make him a compelling lead. At this point, I feel a complete personality overhaul may be the only thing.

I dunno -- the fact that he's a damaged character makes him somewhat interesting. That said, I didn't totally care for Milligan's characterization of him (but in contrast, I didn't think Jordan fleshed him out that much at all in the first three volumes). In my opinion, the way to fix the situation going forward is to focus primarily on Jack in any upcoming books (the first 3 volumes focused more on Darque than anything else and introduced a bunch of side stories that weren't really explored; Deadside Blues went a bit into a piece of Jack's back story, but focused on the story of his interaction with the bully a bit over much; and End Times seemed more focused on Josiah than Jack. They also have to rebuild the supporting characters as most of them were destroyed or left in disarray throughout the series (Dox, dead; Alyssa, disillusioned after some sort of forced love connection; the other abettors in complete turmoil). The upside to Jordan's run on the book is that he left so many open threads that a writer could easily use some of those various subplots while working on building Jack's character.

[Thegreatmagnet]

Without getting too spoilery, Jack reappears in Ninjack in the Operation Deadside arc, and he's been like Master Darque's Vader, kicking *SQUEE* all through the Deadside for who knows how many years. Odds are, he's done an insane amount of terrible stuff that might torture him to think about. They give a little taste of those as backups in Ninjack. I think they should continue those backups in the ongoing to show the scope of how much Jack must atone for.
Beyond that, I think he needs training. We never saw him getting any training in the original series, so we never really learned his powers. The Abettors/Alyssa are gone, so I this Punk Mambo has to come in and teach Jack how to finally ride the loa. Maybe kick his *SQUEE* if he starts losing control. He needs to finally start to grow as a character.
Eventually I'd love to see him return to the Deadside and confront Master Darque for tricking him. It's high time we learned something about the Deadside, especially if it's a significant part of Shadowman's power set.

[Zhuge1]

Without getting too spoilery, Jack reappears in Ninjack in the Operation Deadside arc, and he's been like Master Darque's Vader, kicking *SQUEE* all through the Deadside for who knows how many years. Odds are, he's done an insane amount of terrible stuff that might torture him to think about. They give a little taste of those as backups in Ninjack. I think they should continue those backups in the ongoing to show the scope of how much Jack must atone for.
Beyond that, I think he needs training. We never saw him getting any training in the original series, so we never really learned his powers. The Abettors/Alyssa are gone, so I this Punk Mambo has to come in and teach Jack how to finally ride the loa. Maybe kick his *SQUEE* if he starts losing control. He needs to finally start to grow as a character.
Eventually I'd love to see him return to the Deadside and confront Master Darque for tricking him. It's high time we learned something about the Deadside, especially if it's a significant part of Shadowman's power set.

I'd love to see more about the Deadside, but I'd like to see them develop Jack for a while without reverting back to setting up another confrontation with Darque. The majority of the series (and his character) has been focused on that to the exclusion of everything else (including the training you mention and, ultimately, character development).

I think Punk Mambo should be a part of that training and guidance, but a guy as fragile as Jack needs more supporting characters around him to help shape/guide him.

[TheeBaldMoose]

I just read an article regarding Ninjak #23. It will be a new arc that will begin in January called "The Seven Blades of Master Darque". Since we saw Jack earlier in Ninjak, we could end up seeing him again. This could go a long way in the "repair" of Jack, at least enough stir up enough interest for Shadowman to get a new book in Spring.... Maybe

[Zhuge1]

I just read an article regarding Ninjak #23. It will be a new arc that will begin in January called "The Seven Blades of Master Darque". Since we saw Jack earlier in Ninjak, we could end up seeing him again. This could go a long way in the "repair" of Jack, at least enough stir up enough interest for Shadowman to get a new book in Spring.... Maybe

I'd be interested if it's really a Shadowman book and not just another book about Darque. That said, I wouldn't have a problem reading more about Darque or in a book focused on him so long as it's billed that way. It'll be interesting to see how they handle things with those two in the Ninjak title.

And while they're figuring out how to handle him, it'd be nice if they'd put out another collected edition of more of the VH1 material

[Keith]

I just read an article regarding Ninjak #23. It will be a new arc that will begin in January called "The Seven Blades of Master Darque". Since we saw Jack earlier in Ninjak, we could end up seeing him again. This could go a long way in the "repair" of Jack, at least enough stir up enough interest for Shadowman to get a new book in Spring.... Maybe

Sounds good! In fact, I think Dinesh had mentioned the next Ninjak arc involving a return character of some sorts.

Is there a link for that article?

[TheeBaldMoose]

http://www.newsarama.com/31600-ninjak-e ... arque.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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[Keith]

http://www.newsarama.com/31600-ninjak-e ... arque.html

Nice, thanks!

Master Darque looking a foliage-esque there. Guess that's what time as a tree does for a feller.

[bygranddesign]

I think by breaking Jack down and providing this now torturous past -- (ironically) they have begun the steps to repairing the character.

I think they should eventually re-introduce him as seemingly normal. He has learned to suppress the Loa so deep inside him that he feels it is mostly gone ... but at night, the urge for violence begins to bubble up from deep within him.

In order to control his urges, he becomes obsessed with New Orleans nightlife ... and music becomes his way of suppressing the demons and the Loa (and its violent urges from manifesting). When music doesn't work ... he directs his violent urges and adrenaline rushes at the criminal underground of New Orleans.

They should bring back Nettie ... as someone who takes care of him and helps him to feel normal ... but also encourages to fufill his destiny ... and eventually is shown to be more than meets the eye.

These are the key things for me
-- Bring back Jack as less powerful (for the moment at least) and more of crime fighter - facing off against less mystical monsters and more monsters of the human variety.
-- Bring back music as an important aspect of his life. That is an important aspect of the character in VH1 and should be part of the re-booted character. Bring back the saxophone!
-- Bring back Nettie.
-- No Master Darque until the 3rd or 4th story arc. Like what has been mentioned previously, the characters are too tied together. Jack/Shadowman needs to stand alone for a little while.
-- New outfit design .. something he physically creates since he doesn't want the Loa to envelope him.

[TheeBaldMoose]

I think by breaking Jack down and providing this now torturous past -- (ironically) they have begun the steps to repairing the character.

I think they should eventually re-introduce him as seemingly normal. He has learned to suppress the Loa so deep inside him that he feels it is mostly gone ... but at night, the urge for violence begins to bubble up from deep within him.

In order to control his urges, he becomes obsessed with New Orleans nightlife ... and music becomes his way of suppressing the demons and the Loa (and its violent urges from manifesting). When music doesn't work ... he directs his violent urges and adrenaline rushes at the criminal underground of New Orleans.

They should bring back Nettie ... as someone who takes care of him and helps him to feel normal ... but also encourages to fufill his destiny ... and eventually is shown to be more than meets the eye.

These are the key things for me
-- Bring back Jack as less powerful (for the moment at least) and more of crime fighter - facing off against less mystical monsters and more monsters of the human variety.
-- New outfit design .. something he physically creates since he doesn't want the Loa to envelope him.
-- Bring back music as an important aspect of his life. That is an important aspect of the character in VH1 and should be part of the re-booted character
-- Bring back Nettie.
-- No Master Darque until the 3rd or 4th story arc. Like what has been mentioned previously, the characters are too tied together. Jack/Shadowman needs to stand alone for a little while.

Yes, kind of like a Bat Man for Valiant! I would want Punk Mambo in your idea, someone that could help him get stronger... I'd even go so far as to say no Master Darque for quite some time, pushing out confrontations for some time People expect that, so don't give them what they want

[Thegreatmagnet]

Going back to training, I think it'd be cool if Master Darque had taught him some things while in the Deadside. They could include some of that stuff in backup stories as well.

[Zhuge1]

I think by breaking Jack down and providing this now torturous past -- (ironically) they have begun the steps to repairing the character.

I think they should eventually re-introduce him as seemingly normal. He has learned to suppress the Loa so deep inside him that he feels it is mostly gone ... but at night, the urge for violence begins to bubble up from deep within him.

In order to control his urges, he becomes obsessed with New Orleans nightlife ... and music becomes his way of suppressing the demons and the Loa (and its violent urges from manifesting). When music doesn't work ... he directs his violent urges and adrenaline rushes at the criminal underground of New Orleans.

They should bring back Nettie ... as someone who takes care of him and helps him to feel normal ... but also encourages to fufill his destiny ... and eventually is shown to be more than meets the eye.

These are the key things for me
-- Bring back Jack as less powerful (for the moment at least) and more of crime fighter - facing off against less mystical monsters and more monsters of the human variety.
-- Bring back music as an important aspect of his life. That is an important aspect of the character in VH1 and should be part of the re-booted character. Bring back the saxophone!
-- Bring back Nettie.
-- No Master Darque until the 3rd or 4th story arc. Like what has been mentioned previously, the characters are too tied together. Jack/Shadowman needs to stand alone for a little while.
-- New outfit design .. something he physically creates since he doesn't want the Loa to envelope him.

I like most of those ideas. I wouldn't be opposed to some actual "monsters" that he faces off with, but it needs to be a bit less forced than some of the things we've seen in the past. For example, the "Tremble" loa as an enemy just seemed awkward and forced (and uninteresting). So, perhaps a situation where Jack has enemies in New Orleans (like the soma drug dealers) or the Brethren, but also perhaps issues to deal with in the Deadside (Samedi). That opens the ability to explore both and flesh out the Deadside as well as supporting characters in New Orleans.

I like the idea of re-introducing Nettie, but at the same time I'd mix in Punk Mambo (but in limited chunks) and possibly even bring Alyssa back (although certainly not as a love interest -- use Jordan's characterization instead of Milligan's).

As far as the outfit goes -- I'd be fine with sticking to the version Zircher drew in the first arc.

[jmatt]

Yes, kind of like a Bat Man for Valiant!

Have you read VH1 Shadowman? That's kinda how he started off.

[armlessphelan]

I'd bring Alyssa back, but not as a supporting character for Jack. She could easily become an ally of Ninjak while Punk Mambo becomes a mentor of sorts to Jack. The brilliant thing about Valiant (and especially VH1) was that no one villain is intrinsically tied to any one hero. Hell, The Immortal Enemy is an Eternal Warrior villain, but his murder of Kay was the impetus for a massive shift in Bloodshot as a character. Dr. Silk is a major player in Rai.

I think that having the loa depowered might be the best thing. Punk Mambo saps away its wanga so that it doesn't overwhelm Jack or something.

[dornwolf]

I still kind of think we missed a step with Jack. I wish we had gotten at least a year exploring evil Shadowman or something.

[Shadowman99]

Oh man, just go and read the 'End Times' published issue threads for people's opinions on what should be done with Jack moving ahead, *so* many pages of reading on that topic

Still, I love a bit of Shadowman discussion so here goes...

I understand that some folk want to see elements of the former series restored to the new comic: there's no reason really why they can't be, like say the whole 'saxophone' thing, but really, that stuff's in the past - that's VH1 Shadowman. It's all right there in those comics if you want it. I think the important thing here is that we're moving ahead with a new character, so there's no real need to bring back any of the old stuff, like the music, the 'night time crimefighter' schtick, Nettie... Hell, VEI can do that if they want to, but it seems clear to me that they're more interested in creating a NEW character using an old name. I'm really not expecting or hoping to see any of the old stuff myself, which in a way is sad 'cos there's stuff about previous versions of the character that'd I'd love to see reinvented one way or another, but then again, I'm also excited to see what VEI can do with this character that's new and fresh, and exciting!

I think one thing people are really mostly agreed upon is that Jack's power set needs establishing, and I like the idea (whoever suggested it) that Punk Mambo can become Jack's new ally, train him how to control the Loa and eventually become a badass with all this necromantic power and whatnot, I think that could be a cool way to get the character back on its feet. As for future plotlines, well, I guess we'll just have to see when it comes to it. Personally I'd love a super-dark horror tone to the comic, not dissimilar to Britannia #1, but I doubt that's what VEI are gonna provide when it comes to it, so hey, let's see what happens instead.

Could also be interesting to see what kind of supporting characters VEI give Shadowman in future stories, and how they shape the character that he is, and becomes. Vditti did a great job of this with Aric in XO Manowar in my opinion, and I can only hope for something of a similar quality in future Shadowman comics. Jack is bound to have a more-or-less ongoing beef with Darque over the coming years, so that'll be fun to watch play out, and there's potential for the antagonist here to shape the protagonist, as we've already seen during End Times and Ninjak. Surely Sandria's gotta return at some point as well? I agree with Zhuge1 however - we could easily manage 2 or three arcs without anything to do with the Darques in to start with, to get Jack up and running under his own steam. And what about potential monsters/demons/ghosts etc that Shadowman could face off against? There's gotta be any amount of potential there.

Anyway, I've always loved a good Shadowman comic (and hated a few bad ones too), so I'm pretty much always psyched for seeing what comes next for the character

[Watchtower]

I think by breaking Jack down and providing this now torturous past -- (ironically) they have begun the steps to repairing the character.

I think they should eventually re-introduce him as seemingly normal. He has learned to suppress the Loa so deep inside him that he feels it is mostly gone ... but at night, the urge for violence begins to bubble up from deep within him.

In order to control his urges, he becomes obsessed with New Orleans nightlife ... and music becomes his way of suppressing the demons and the Loa (and its violent urges from manifesting). When music doesn't work ... he directs his violent urges and adrenaline rushes at the criminal underground of New Orleans.

They should bring back Nettie ... as someone who takes care of him and helps him to feel normal ... but also encourages to fufill his destiny ... and eventually is shown to be more than meets the eye.

These are the key things for me
-- Bring back Jack as less powerful (for the moment at least) and more of crime fighter - facing off against less mystical monsters and more monsters of the human variety.
-- Bring back music as an important aspect of his life. That is an important aspect of the character in VH1 and should be part of the re-booted character. Bring back the saxophone!
-- Bring back Nettie.
-- No Master Darque until the 3rd or 4th story arc. Like what has been mentioned previously, the characters are too tied together. Jack/Shadowman needs to stand alone for a little while.
-- New outfit design .. something he physically creates since he doesn't want the Loa to envelope him.

I definitely like a lot of these ideas, but I'm a bit concerned with just hoisting him onto Nettie or Punk Mambo.

As I've noted in other threads, Jack's big problem right now is a lack of willpower. The Official Handbook attributes his first corruption as the result of suddenly losing Dox's guidance, and attributes his brief maintenance before End Times as the result of his love for Alyssa. All throwing him onto Nettie or Punk Mambo does is shift him onto yet another dependency. And sure, VH1 Jack was always unhinged, and always had someone like Nettie to keep him from going over the brink, but he'd always fight. VEI Jack submits, and that's what really needs to stop.

I understand that some folk want to see elements of the former series restored to the new comic: there's no reason really why they can't be, like say the whole 'saxophone' thing, but really, that stuff's in the past - that's VH1 Shadowman. It's all right there in those comics if you want it. I think the important thing here is that we're moving ahead with a new character, so there's no real need to bring back any of the old stuff, like the music, the 'night time crimefighter' schtick, Nettie... Hell, VEI can do that if they want to, but it seems clear to me that they're more interested in creating a NEW character using an old name. I'm really not expecting or hoping to see any of the old stuff myself, which in a way is sad 'cos there's stuff about previous versions of the character that'd I'd love to see reinvented one way or another, but then again, I'm also excited to see what VEI can do with this character that's new and fresh, and exciting!

I've seen you make this point in a couple other threads, and to an extent I even agree, but there's two points to consider.

First, Valiant has clearly made an effort to try to restore its heroes while still leaving them open to new twists and paths, no doubt helped by CEO Dino being an original member of this very forum. Even Dr. Mirage, one of the most radical of Valiant's redesigns so far, still has Hwen as a ghost and the lovey-dovey romance between him and his wife. VEI Jack takes almost nothing from VH1 Jack, which is bizarre given just how popular VH1 Jack was.

But okay, maybe VH1 Jack doesn't work nowadays, so he needs to be completely revitalized. In theory, that's fine. But that leads to my second point: if you're going to strip the character and start fresh, you need to be able to replace what you took out with something that's at least as sufficient, if not more so. And Valiant so far hasn't. We know little of this new Jack beyond the tragedies he's been forced to endure, and as a result he is, even now after all these years, still in a state of flux. You say his powerset needs to be stabilized, but so too does his character.

[bygranddesign]

I understand that some folk want to see elements of the former series restored to the new comic: there's no reason really why they can't be, like say the whole 'saxophone' thing, but really, that stuff's in the past - that's VH1 Shadowman. It's all right there in those comics if you want it. I think the important thing here is that we're moving ahead with a new character, so there's no real need to bring back any of the old stuff, like the music, the 'night time crimefighter' schtick, Nettie... Hell, VEI can do that if they want to, but it seems clear to me that they're more interested in creating a NEW character using an old name. I'm really not expecting or hoping to see any of the old stuff myself, which in a way is sad 'cos there's stuff about previous versions of the character that'd I'd love to see reinvented one way or another, but then again, I'm also excited to see what VEI can do with this character that's new and fresh, and exciting!

I've seen you make this point in a couple other threads, and to an extent I even agree, but there's two points to consider.

First, Valiant has clearly made an effort to try to restore its heroes while still leaving them open to new twists and paths, no doubt helped by CEO Dino being an original member of this very forum. Even Dr. Mirage, one of the most radical of Valiant's redesigns so far, still has Hwen as a ghost and the lovey-dovey romance between him and his wife. VEI Jack takes almost nothing from VH1 Jack, which is bizarre given just how popular VH1 Jack was.

But okay, maybe VH1 Jack doesn't work nowadays, so he needs to be completely revitalized. In theory, that's fine. But that leads to my second point: if you're going to strip the character and start fresh, you need to be able to replace what you took out with something that's at least as sufficient, if not more so. And Valiant so far hasn't. We know little of this new Jack beyond the tragedies he's been forced to endure, and as a result he is, even now after all these years, still in a state of flux. You say his powerset needs to be stabilized, but so too does his character.

Yeah I agree

They stripped an essential element from the character (music) and replaced it with nothing.

But its an element that didn't need replacing. I'm baffled by the VEI's choice not to have music be an important part of the character and I'm equally baffled by fans that think its 'ok'.

A couple of years ago, when JMS was developing a Shadowman movie script he talked about the cool aspects of the character and how the setting of New Orleans and Jazz music were the things he was most excited about.

Jazz/music is ingrained in New Orleans culture ... it should be an essential part of Jack.

The idea that fans think the saxophone is somehow 'dated' or Jazz is 'uncool' is why I think it is so sooo perfect.

It brings the character some uniqueness and substance.

I don't want Jack updated as a New Orleans rapper ... or a boy band wannabe.

I want him in a dingy club playing to 5 drunk people playing dirty sax

And i'm not saying we need to be hit over the head with it ... it could be something that is added to the character slowly.

Maybe Punk Mambo or Nettie gives him an instrument to help him soothe the monster inside him ... and eventually over 25 issue run you see him progressively getting better at playing it.

It can be done in a way that is subtle and interesting ... and provide character progression.

[Psiot X]

As a counter point, sometimes it's easier to sell damaged goods. What will make for a compelling story? I am not always looking to idolize the characters I read. I want to be entertained and intrigued. I want to see a good writer look it over and take Jack somewhere rather than having him be cardboard likable. Starting from a broken point sometimes makes that easier.

[Zhuge1]

As a counter point, sometimes it's easier to sell damaged goods. What will make for a compelling story? I am not always looking to idolize the characters I read. I want to be entertained and intrigued. I want to see a good writer look it over and take Jack somewhere rather than having him be cardboard likable. Starting from a broken point sometimes makes that easier.

I think that's a good point. And, I think there would have to be some aspect of that for the next writer to take on. Jack's been through quite a bit, so it would stand to reason it's going to take time for him to come to terms with everything and rebuild himself somewhat. I'm just hopeful that whoever takes over will take on those issues and really spend some time developing him as a character. I just wouldn't want to see another Milligan type run where we get some backstory, but it feels forced and awkward, and ultimately everything falls flat as the writer tries too hard to lay the ground work for future storylines.

That happened during the first run with Jordan -- he created a ton of stuff (the Brethren, the soma drug, the backstory on Darque; the backstory of Sandria and Marius; Samedi; Jaunty; the abettors; the whole notion of necromantic energy; etc.). Then Milligan expanded further with Jack's bully backstory; Josiah being alive; the "voodoo land"; Punk Mambo; the "senior" abettors; etc. The problem is both introduced so much that they never really got around to fleshing much out and left a lot of unresolved or unused threads.

I'd like to see someone come in and introduce some interesting stories, but ultimately, keep them focused and devote a good bit of time to Jack and the supporting characters. Venditti's run on X-O has been great because in the initial story arcs, he wrote a great story, but also gave you a sense of who Aric was -- what his strengths were as well as his faults. He wrote him as if he were a real person despite the fact that he was in such an usual story setting. I think the same can be said of Archer and Armstrong (at least the first few volumes) -- there was an interesting story, but during it, you got a good sense of who the characters were. In Shadowman, sometimes the stories felt like an old 80's era Marvel comic where the characters can be introduced by a big splash page showing them all with a narration box that includes their character name and perhaps a sentence describing their powers. That is to say, the characters seemed very "cardboard" and fake. I don't think we ever got a sense of who Dox really was or what his motivations were. We didn't find out anything about Alyssa (and to further the sense of her "cardboard-ness" she was randomly thrown in as a love interest by Milligan despite there being no real good reason for it). We know nothing about Jaunty other than he was perhaps working with Josiah (at least in Milligan's run). Contrast that with the first few volumes of Archer and Armstrong, and we are introduced to a number of characters, many of whom are just in flashback (like Ivar), and we're given a good sense of who they are, what their motivations are, and what their personality traits are.

[Shadowman99]

I think by breaking Jack down and providing this now torturous past -- (ironically) they have begun the steps to repairing the character.

I think they should eventually re-introduce him as seemingly normal. He has learned to suppress the Loa so deep inside him that he feels it is mostly gone ... but at night, the urge for violence begins to bubble up from deep within him.

In order to control his urges, he becomes obsessed with New Orleans nightlife ... and music becomes his way of suppressing the demons and the Loa (and its violent urges from manifesting). When music doesn't work ... he directs his violent urges and adrenaline rushes at the criminal underground of New Orleans.

They should bring back Nettie ... as someone who takes care of him and helps him to feel normal ... but also encourages to fufill his destiny ... and eventually is shown to be more than meets the eye.

These are the key things for me
-- Bring back Jack as less powerful (for the moment at least) and more of crime fighter - facing off against less mystical monsters and more monsters of the human variety.
-- Bring back music as an important aspect of his life. That is an important aspect of the character in VH1 and should be part of the re-booted character. Bring back the saxophone!
-- Bring back Nettie.
-- No Master Darque until the 3rd or 4th story arc. Like what has been mentioned previously, the characters are too tied together. Jack/Shadowman needs to stand alone for a little while.
-- New outfit design .. something he physically creates since he doesn't want the Loa to envelope him.

I definitely like a lot of these ideas, but I'm a bit concerned with just hoisting him onto Nettie or Punk Mambo.

As I've noted in other threads, Jack's big problem right now is a lack of willpower. The Official Handbook attributes his first corruption as the result of suddenly losing Dox's guidance, and attributes his brief maintenance before End Times as the result of his love for Alyssa. All throwing him onto Nettie or Punk Mambo does is shift him onto yet another dependency. And sure, VH1 Jack was always unhinged, and always had someone like Nettie to keep him from going over the brink, but he'd always fight. VEI Jack submits, and that's what really needs to stop.

I understand that some folk want to see elements of the former series restored to the new comic: there's no reason really why they can't be, like say the whole 'saxophone' thing, but really, that stuff's in the past - that's VH1 Shadowman. It's all right there in those comics if you want it. I think the important thing here is that we're moving ahead with a new character, so there's no real need to bring back any of the old stuff, like the music, the 'night time crimefighter' schtick, Nettie... Hell, VEI can do that if they want to, but it seems clear to me that they're more interested in creating a NEW character using an old name. I'm really not expecting or hoping to see any of the old stuff myself, which in a way is sad 'cos there's stuff about previous versions of the character that'd I'd love to see reinvented one way or another, but then again, I'm also excited to see what VEI can do with this character that's new and fresh, and exciting!

I've seen you make this point in a couple other threads, and to an extent I even agree, but there's two points to consider.

First, Valiant has clearly made an effort to try to restore its heroes while still leaving them open to new twists and paths, no doubt helped by CEO Dino being an original member of this very forum. Even Dr. Mirage, one of the most radical of Valiant's redesigns so far, still has Hwen as a ghost and the lovey-dovey romance between him and his wife. VEI Jack takes almost nothing from VH1 Jack, which is bizarre given just how popular VH1 Jack was.

But okay, maybe VH1 Jack doesn't work nowadays, so he needs to be completely revitalized. In theory, that's fine. But that leads to my second point: if you're going to strip the character and start fresh, you need to be able to replace what you took out with something that's at least as sufficient, if not more so. And Valiant so far hasn't. We know little of this new Jack beyond the tragedies he's been forced to endure, and as a result he is, even now after all these years, still in a state of flux. You say his powerset needs to be stabilized, but so too does his character.

I definitely agree with you that today's Shadowman takes extremely little from previous versions of the character. To me it seems only to resemble previous incarnations is in name alone, literally 'Jack Boniface/Shadowman'. I think in some ways that's one thing that makes it extremely easy for me to separate VEI's character from any previous versions, which is why I typically find the idea of revitalising anything from the past comics redundant. You definitely make a good point with your discussion on Dr. Mirage - key aspects of that comic have been maintained and revitalised in a way that works in a modern market and they've done a damn good job of it - somehow, with Shadowman, this just hasn't happened One thing that could be interesting to see is, in the event that VEI resurrect and revitalise anything from the previous versions of the comic, what it is that they choose and how they do it. More importantly, what it adds to the story and character. On the flipside of that it could easily be argued that this could also be achieved by introducing new elements to the comic, although what they might be is obviously at the behest of the creative team. I have a feeling that 'The Abettors' may have been an attempt at this, although that's a card that's apparently no longer in play

The powerset needs establishing, without a doubt, and I've certainly discussed the need to establish Jack's character in the past too, I'm definitely in agreement with you there

I'm baffled by the VEI's choice not to have music be an important part of the character and I'm equally baffled by fans that think its 'ok'.

For me at least, this comes down to 'music' being absolutely attributed to VH1 Jack Boniface. Fans are currently interfacing with an entirely new version of the character so there's no fundamental requirement for 'music' to be a theme or for it to influence the character's personality. That's just one fan's take on it, I'm sure there are many other opinions on the topic

I can also understand other fans' nostalgia resulting in a yearning to see this former theme restored to the current version of the comics: that does make sense to me, it's just not something I sympathise with. Having said that, using the sax as a way of calming Jack/soothing the Loa to tip the scales of control, and having him genuinely improve his playing as a course of practice over the years is an idea I like quite a lot It actually adds something to the story and in an interesting way, like you say, rather than just being shoehorned in for no other reason that to pander to nostalgia.

As for not selling cookie-cut 'likeable' characters; I'm sure VEI could do it if they got the right writer in. Dysart did a great job with more or less the whole Harbinger stable, and Quantum and Woody have their fans, so I'm sure it could work for Jack under the right pen

[FormerReader]

Valiant needs to hire Bob Hall and retcon the whole mess. Problem solved.

[Shadowman99]

Valiant needs to hire Bob Hall and retcon the whole mess. Problem solved.

Suddenly Jack grows his hair long, picks up a sax, and the rest is history...