What Valiant is doing right (and what not), imo

[krylox]

So... I just finished the Book of Death hardcover today. This is what I wrote about it in the published issue thread:

just finished the book of death hardcover. bod harbinger was the only one i buyed and read as a single issue and i remember liking it very much. but today, on a second and more slow and profound re-read... WOW. just wow. this is probably the best comic any incarnation of valiant has ever released and it had that superb rai #0 vibe to it. but from a storytelling standpoint it was much more emotional and complex/layered. i think this book is exactly what a lot of old school fans were always expecting from the new valiant: complex genre-storytelling for adults. as much as i loved it, it stood quite in heavy contrast with the rest of the book, which, at best, was nice to average. the main mini and the x-o story by venditti... sorry, i just don't get why this guy is still allowed to write for vei. it's so rough, so in your face, so superficial... but enough with the negativity. i would have gladly payed for this hardcover for the harbinger story alone. this issue alone is the definitive answer to the question "has valiant earned its place in today's comics market?": HELL YES.

i want more stuff like that. PLEASE!!!

and josh for president. obviously. (but i really loved the art and the colors too)

So, yes: I DO want more of this. And to increase the probability, I instantly subbed Rai, Bloodshot, Divinity II and 4001 at my lcs. I was basically out. I had quit singles for a year or so, and when I returned the only Valiant thing I re-subbed was Imperium. I still got some Valiant-trades from time to time and almost always picked up a new #1, but didn't feel the urge to follow any book on a monthly basis.
But here's the thing: As much as I want more Valiant comics to feel and read like the Book of Death Harbinger one-shot, I now understand that it's just not that easy to pull that off. And that it's not, or only partially VEI's "fault" the whole relaunch didn't live up to its full potential, yet. But let me lead with some things that Valiant Entertainment, in my opinion, has done surprisingly well since their relaunch in 2012.

THE GOOD:

The Management. I think it's a very competent and well assembled troop. Everything that comes out of VEI, be it product, pr, strategy etc feels like it's run by absolute professionals. The company is very visible in the online news-sites, they doing a lot of cons, had some really good pr-stunts going for them and have in Dinesh a sympathetic public face. They also seem to be very good business people. They have convinced investors to fund movies based on properties nobody outside (and really, only a small fraction inside) the comic/geek/pop-culture-community knows. They have presented themselves as the third option after Marvel and DC, as a company with a rich legacy, and they have overstated their potential in order to grab money at a time when everyone and their grandmother were looking for the next cinematic universe. It's good timing. But also capable salesmanship. In short: The company is now well funded and led by people who know what they're doing. Big, BIG plus.

The publishing plan. Nobody will take by-the-numbers-books from Valiant (except for the hardcore fans, and yes, there are quite a few on this board). It's easier to do average books at Marvel or DC, the hardcore fanbase of the characters who will buy whatever will gets published is at critical level, which keeps the book going, at least for a year or two. But this core base is too small with Valiant to guarantee a healthy print run. And weak comic material won't ever be translated to films either, so why publish it? Doesn't make sense for VEI. This is why they have changed their policy. I think it's a clever move.

The creators. A lot of people don't understand how hard it is nowadays to get top talent for your books. When Marvel and DC are releasing something like 150+ books combined on a monthly basis. When the well known names can earn a lot more on their creator owned books at a company like Image (AND create without any editorial interference AND keep all the media rights). When writers from the comic field are sought after in other media like tv. Etc etc. If you keep all that in mind, the creative rooster at Valiant is a pretty impressive one. I will be the first to admit, that not every dark horse turned in his best work. But Dysart, Kindt and Lemire are producing some of the best work in their careers, and that's saying a lot.

The roll out in 2012/2013. I think the first phase with X-O, Harbinger, A&A and Bloodshot was a very strong one. Creatively solid to excellent content and also very good sales.
Same goes for Valiant Next in late 2014. Ninjak, Imperium, Ivar, Timewalker and Bloodshot Reborn were strong releases and in Divinity VEI had finally started to explore new ground and break free from the endless rehashing and rebooting of old ideas. Divnity II and Faith are built on this ground and sales are once again starting to show an upwards trend. More importantly, comic readers not familiar with the original characters from 90s start to take notice of Valiant. They become more relevant.

[krylox]

THE NOT-SO-GOOD:

The creative deadlock, which started with the roll-out of Shadowman and ended with the last issue of Unity. Of course there were some nice, even great issues hidden in there, but all in all, from Summer of Valiant 2013 to the first issue of The Valiant in December 2015, the company didn't have a creative focus. At least, this is what it looked like from the outside and the numbers dropped accordingly.
In retrospect I understand that VEI wanted to unify the different characters and series into one coherent universe. But, I'm afraid this never really worked out. I have read people complain in other threads about the lack of cohesiveness in the valiant titles and I think there's something to it. Different genres, styles, histories and characters. Which can be a very good thing, if you're not trying to mash them up. With force. The best example of this is Unity. It read exactly like the top-down-editorial mandate it always was: Make those characters mingle. They even played the fact that it didn't feel organic in the first place into this "they don't want to, but have to work together" thing, which never really catched on. But there are great creative minds, who can make the impossible work. Unfortunately, VEI is still looking for this magnificent architect.

The missing architect. DC has Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison, the Marvel renaissance of the naughties had the Jemas/Quesada and later the Bendis/Millar era until Hickman took over 5+ years ago, and Valiant...? Venditti may be a quite capable writer on X-O (I found it always quite heavy-handed, but whatever) but a quick glance at his goodreads-page and his ratings and you'll see: No masterworks yet from this man. Still, he was the guy mainly trusted with Valiant's last big events: Armor Hunters and The Book of Death. While the former was kind of fun and managed to integrate all players from the Valiant universe to a certain degree, the second one is an complete failure: Everyone lese other than Gilad is just superfluous, but they still show up. Because, you know, it's an event. And they have to be there.
We all remember that the original Valiant only took of after what has to be one of the most clever plots in event/crossover history: Unity. Different eras and extremely heterogenous concepts and characters all of a sudden looked like a well-assembled mosaic. Again: The architect. Dysart would be an obvious choice. What he is doing with his corner of the Valiant universe is nothing short of impressive. But maybe he just doesn't want to be that guy. It looks like it, because now it's Matt Kindt who's doing the next thing: 4001. This might be the last chance at an "unifying effect". I'm pretty sure, if this turns out to be another lukewarm effort, the segregation of the Valiant universe into different little corners will be solidified for good.

The art. A big argument for first-time buyers is the artwork. And a lot of Valiant art was less than average. This posting is way to long already, so I'll keep this one short. While Valiant has some of the best covers in the industry, the interior art feels very much like a small publisher: uneven and sometimes downright unattractive. I have asked myself quite a few times, if Harbinger could have been much more of a hit, if not for Khari Evans very generic art. Putting a few different artist on the same book or changing them from one issue to the next one and then again... just to get it done may get you recognition from the distributor and the shops, but won't attract new readers to a title. I think this problem was also dealt with with Valiant Next and I feel that the art has never been as good as it is now, but I think this may have cost Valiant quite a few readers along the way. And it's something which sticks with them: Those guys don't have good art. Not a good thing, image-wise.

OK. That's it. A long one. Just wanted to sum up some of my thoughts on the recent state of things. And hopefully get into a conversation with you guys, which, ideally, could inspire the publisher for his further endeavours. And here I have to add one last thing. I really appreciated what DC was doing recently: Accepting that mistakes were made and they have learned from it. Not every critical fan is a troll. Some of us just want the company to live up to its full potential. While we don't have all the facts and background information, some things can be summed up in a pretty simple way: Does it excite us? Does it entertain us? Will we keep buying those comics?

I'm curious to read your thoughts.

[Elveen]

I can respect your thought out and intelligent posts. I agree with lots of what you wrote.

[jmatt]

I can respect your thought out and intelligent posts. I agree with lots of what you wrote.

I would agree. Venditti is hit and miss with me. AH was great, BoD less so. Evans and Gill don't work for me. Not bad, but not great. Just my opinion.

[buff-beardo]

Great post Krylox! Imo, I think you hit the nail on the head when you brought up the missing architect. However, I can't fault VEI for that. Seems to be like catching lightning in a bottle, once in a generation type of deal.

[krylox]

Thanks guys. Let me also add that regarding the last bulletpoint about the art is not a very important one, for me at least it isn't. We all remember how crude VH1 art was in some places. Compared to that, VEI was always WAY ahead. But you know the saying: They come for the art and stay for the story.

Also, just to make it clear one more time: I think the comics Valiant puts out RIGHT NOW have never been more exciting. If they manage to address some of their weaknesses in the next phase I can see them taking off for good.

I know this is a controversial thought, and probably just not very realistic in the first place, but have you noticed that Grant Morrison doesn't have any new book at the rebirthed DC? Just saying.

Morrison writing X-O.

Morrison + Dysart + Kindt cooking up the most crazy and emotional and meaningful trans-time&dimensional-universe-wide event ever created. Of course, at the end of it three lost heroes from another Valiant Dimension cross over into the VEI universe... HAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I got carried away. But what do you guys think about Morrison?

And if you read this Dino: Give it a thought. And give the man a call

[Sven the Returned]

OP said Dysart should be the achitect. A writer who basically does great deep character portraits/analysis. I am not sure why he should be the achitect based on his streenghts as a writer.

[Keith]

Thanks guys. Let me also add that regarding the last bulletpoint about the art is not a very important one, for me at least it isn't. We all remember how crude VH1 art was in some places. Compared to that, VEI was always WAY ahead. But you know the saying: They come for the art and stay for the story.

Also, just to make it clear one more time: I think the comics Valiant puts out RIGHT NOW have never been more exciting. If they manage to address some of their weaknesses in the next phase I can see them taking off for good.

I know this is a controversial thought, and probably just not very realistic in the first place, but have you noticed that Grant Morrison doesn't have any new book at the rebirthed DC? Just saying.

Morrison writing X-O.

Morrison + Dysart + Kindt cooking up the most crazy and emotional and meaningful trans-time&dimensional-universe-wide event ever created. Of course, at the end of it three lost heroes from another Valiant Dimension cross over into the VEI universe... HAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I got carried away. But what do you guys think about Morrison?

And if you read this Dino: Give it a thought. And give the man a call

While I can appreciate that Morrison is a big idea man and capable of crafting epics, I think (imo, based on my reading experience with him - basically Batman run and Final Crisis) that he writes stories that make sense... to him. I would not want him turning the Valiant Universe into some meta-commentary on whatever Grant was obsessing over at the current moment. But that's just me.

Honestly, I do think there is an architect at work, Valiant just isn't putting a public face to it. And that may be one person or a team effort, I'm not sure. I think the one reason "architects" have become a thing in comics these days is after the complete *SQUEE* show the bigger companies have done with maintaining continuity and resulting reboots. It's like they are saying "no, seriously, we have a plan this time" after years of just throwing the proverbial darts at the story dartboard.

[krylox]

I agree it has become a more common thing to talk about architects, maybe in a way also influenced by the whole "golden age of television" thing, where showrunners are now the new, all-seeing-and-knowing gods of the broader picture, while the day-by-humans in the writing room are just producing the storybeats and -bites.
However, we all have, at one time or another, dreamed about Jim Shooter bringing back the magic to the universe he created. I don't think it would be anyone's dream nowadays, his best times are definitely behind him, but a strong authorial voice would be a lot more than just a guy supervising continuity-issues. It would add a distinct style and gravitas to the Valiant Universe and bring in that something special we all mention and seem to be missing from time to time, without being able to pinpoint it.

And I totally agree Dysart could be that guy, probably even more so than Morrison, who doesn't have any kind of connection to Valiant in his past. But frankly, I can't imagine that Dino and company haven't offered him that position, yet. It's obvious they like him and his work and so do the fans. The fact he didn't become the architect by now probably means that he doesn't want to be that guy. He seems perfectly fine with overseeing his little corner of the universe and doing that as best as anyone could hope for.

[eschnit]

I consider myself a better collector than creative critic, so while I value opinion that adds up to me, mine isn't as meaningful. That said, everything OP wrote makes sense to me. Dysart tried his hand with Harbinger Wars and it worked well to me. Kindt has impressed with Divinity, Ninjak, he seems more than capable of pulling off integrating the universe well. He's getting his chance with 4001, right? Fingers crossed. What about Lemire? Anyway, thanks for the post. I think Jody Houser could be a sleeper. I sense she's hungry, capable, and about to get a shot with Shadowman. Dinesh and crew seem to know what they're doing. I guess I'd add, don't underestimate what an actor can bring to the table. Hugh Jackman's Wolverine was invaluable. I'm not sure Bloodshot is enough of a character to work with in that regard. Matt Damon as Jason Bourne or Arnold as The Terminator, not as meaningful, though super successful. Peter could work similar to Tobey Maguire with Spider-Man. Will be interesting to see it all play out. And yeah, agreed, Venditti is solid, but not the architect, see BoD. And yeah, the art has something left to be desired. Though some of the covers are off the charts. LaRosa needs to be a staple as long as possible imo

[Psiot X]

I don't agree with the comments regarding the art being less than stellar. I don't know what you are reading vs. what I am reading though as I can't buy everything. If you think the art in Bloodshot Reborn, RAI, Imperium, or Ninjak is bad we will never agree. I have not caught up with Unity yet but the early collections are good. Each book has a great style for the stories being told. In particular, I feel Valiant titles make better use of colors than books from other companies in crafting the whole picture. Colorists rarely get the respect they deserve but they color what we see. The only book where I frowned at art might have been Doctor Mirage as it didn't click with me though I liked where they went in story.

I don't yet agree with the idea that the Valiant Universe needs one big architect. First they are a smaller line of titles. Second, I do not want them to be like Marvel and DC. Third, editorial has killed DC and Marvel titles for their bigger aims. Right now, the Valiant line reminds me of the late 80's and early 90's (the last great hay day) where the titles were more self concerned and there was enough freedom for writers to do their own thing in each title with loose connections between them all keeping crossovers and such as an open opportunity for cool. They don't have to worry so about what everyone else is doing. Each title is focused on a point that's self contained within the pages rather than making me jump between a bunch of different books I am not interested in. That's absolutely perfect to me...

Look at Harbinger Wars and Armor Hunters. Those are the best comic book events and crossovers to happen in comics in recent years. Compare that to Marvel's AXIS (the most reviled event in recent years. How long has it been since Marvel or DC had a really great and loved event.) I think the BOD big mistake was trying to incorporate everyone where they weren't needed like something Marvel or DC would try when they should stick to smaller and more focused ones where they are immensely strong and reader satisfaction high. Rather than one big event they could do wonders with a couple of smaller ones happening at once and loosely connected and they are already equipped to do it.

Forgive me. There is one last point I would like to make and i am not the best worded fellow all the time. It's not strongly related to your comments but I feel it need be written. Marvel and DC with all their flash are so focused on keeping everything connected for their big cross media cinematic enabled universe that the comic books read like something being written off of a handbook they can't change for fear of being kicked by movie director X or line editor B like a secretary being dictated to rather than writers that actually love what they are doing and are free to have fun with it. I don't want Valiant to forget that they are a comic book company and slave everyone to a cross media franchise blue print.

But that's just me man.

[krylox]

Hey Psiot X. You make some very interesting and valid points, there.

If you think the art in Bloodshot Reborn, RAI, Imperium, or Ninjak is bad we will never agree.

We do agree on those titles, maybe except for Evans on Imperium (also the fact that he's the fourth regular artist on the series doesn't help either). But you're right, and I have pointed this out: Right now the art on Valiant titles is, generally speaking, very good. I also agree about the coloring, with BOD Harbinger being a perfect example of the awesomeness colors can bring to a story.

I would disagree that the events and crossovers at Valiant are not editorial-dictated. In fact, I feel that's exactly the problem. I would also add that right now, if feels like the authors are finally able to break free from the old formulas, which were implemented at the relaunch, where you would basically had the same stories from the 90s retold in a "modern" way, ergo: a reboot.
When I am talking about an architect, I don't talk about a strong editorial imput but about more creative freedom and a sharper vision for the whole line. Maybe you're right, and this kind of forced cohesiveness has been overdone recently, especially since the introduction of the cinematic universes. Marvel's (or: Hickman's) Secret Wars was still a pretty impressive take on the old "company-wide" crossover-model. I don't read too much DC or Marvel nowadays, so I can't comment on other examples.
However, the distinctiveness of the original Valiant may be something which is not repeatable, maybe even not desirable? As long as we get books like Imperium and Bloodshot Reborn I don't really mind. But it won't make it easier for Valiant as a certain kind of brand to be recognizable for a broader audience. And I still long for that original "Unity"-feel... call me nostalgic.

[Keith]

I'd argue the original Valiant benefited just as much from the insane speculator market of the era as they did from the creative vision. People weren't just buying those books because they kicked *SQUEE* story-wise... Many bought them because they were Valiant, and those went up in price.

[krylox]

I'd argue the original Valiant benefited just as much from the insane speculator market of the era as they did from the creative vision. People weren't just buying those books because they kicked *SQUEE* story-wise... Many bought them because they were Valiant, and those went up in price.

True. But this is the hen and egg thing. Because, for something to become "hot" in a speculative market, you need a hook. Since neither the creators, nor the characters were "hot" in the beginning, it must have been something different which sparked the craze.

But really, this not my point. The comparisons between vh1 and vh3 have been done to death. One shouldn't look into the past for answering the questions of today's market. It is a whole different market and situation. The competition is far more brutal. It has become almost impossible to lure creators into work-for-hire contracts where they actually create NEW stuff (which is a good thing imo) instead of rehashing the old. I get that. Maybe it wasn't all that different in the 90s, when the Marvel top stars wanted to create for themselves and founded Image comics. And Valiant was a very special situation because it was led by a creator/author in the first place. Aside for being a more old-school guy, for whom work-for-hire was the norm, Shooter also saw his personal gain (and a lucrative opportunity) in creating that universe.

The more I write and think about it, the more my respect for the VEI mgmt grows. Maybe the status quo IS the very best that can be achieved regarding creating a work-for-hire shared-universe-concept in OUR age?

[ShadowTuga]

Thanks guys. Let me also add that regarding the last bulletpoint about the art is not a very important one, for me at least it isn't. We all remember how crude VH1 art was in some places. Compared to that, VEI was always WAY ahead. But you know the saying: They come for the art and stay for the story.

Also, just to make it clear one more time: I think the comics Valiant puts out RIGHT NOW have never been more exciting. If they manage to address some of their weaknesses in the next phase I can see them taking off for good.

I know this is a controversial thought, and probably just not very realistic in the first place, but have you noticed that Grant Morrison doesn't have any new book at the rebirthed DC? Just saying.

Morrison writing X-O.

Morrison + Dysart + Kindt cooking up the most crazy and emotional and meaningful trans-time&dimensional-universe-wide event ever created. Of course, at the end of it three lost heroes from another Valiant Dimension cross over into the VEI universe... HAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I got carried away. But what do you guys think about Morrison?

And if you read this Dino: Give it a thought. And give the man a call

Would it be crazy money to get Grant Morrison?
(exhales)

Morrison on literally anything Valiant would be glorious!

X-O would be a perfect fit, imho. Crazy space stuff, time-travel, and all that, but with a HUGE heart, which to me is the click of X-O: his sense of being forever lost.
I know we're dreaming here, but man, how freaking cool and attention-grabbing would be a mini by Morrison on X-O?

[Keith]

The more I write and think about it, the more my respect for the VEI mgmt grows. Maybe the status quo IS the very best that can be achieved regarding creating a work-for-hire shared-universe-concept in OUR age?

+1

When you're a small boat in a harbor dominated by two huge battleships and many medium sized destroyers competing for the same space, not being sunk is an achievement.

Plus, think how many other shared "superhero" universes have been attempted in the past 5 years, and how many of them are still publishing.

[Ricomortis]

The more I write and think about it, the more my respect for the VEI mgmt grows. Maybe the status quo IS the very best that can be achieved regarding creating a work-for-hire shared-universe-concept in OUR age?

+1

When you're a small boat in a harbor dominated by two huge battleships and many medium sized destroyers competing for the same space, not being sunk is an achievement.

Plus, think how many other shared "superhero" universes have been attempted in the past 5 years, and how many of them are still publishing.

[Psiot X]

The more I write and think about it, the more my respect for the VEI mgmt grows. Maybe the status quo IS the very best that can be achieved regarding creating a work-for-hire shared-universe-concept in OUR age?

+1

When you're a small boat in a harbor dominated by two huge battleships and many medium sized destroyers competing for the same space, not being sunk is an achievement.

Plus, think how many other shared "superhero" universes have been attempted in the past 5 years, and how many of them are still publishing.

As an aside, I still hate that Project Black Sky went no where.

[Tele-Viper]

Keep Grant Morrison away from Valiant!

[dornwolf]

Keep Grant Morrison away from Valiant!

I'd also say Geoff Johns as well. Or at least post-Flashpoint Johns. I find too much of a "GRAND" Architect is annoying. It leads to "things will NEVER be the same" story telling that Marvels fallen into. Civil War II changes everything...till fall when another thing changes everything.c

[krylox]

Thanks guys. Let me also add that regarding the last bulletpoint about the art is not a very important one, for me at least it isn't. We all remember how crude VH1 art was in some places. Compared to that, VEI was always WAY ahead. But you know the saying: They come for the art and stay for the story.

Also, just to make it clear one more time: I think the comics Valiant puts out RIGHT NOW have never been more exciting. If they manage to address some of their weaknesses in the next phase I can see them taking off for good.

I know this is a controversial thought, and probably just not very realistic in the first place, but have you noticed that Grant Morrison doesn't have any new book at the rebirthed DC? Just saying.

Morrison writing X-O.

Morrison + Dysart + Kindt cooking up the most crazy and emotional and meaningful trans-time&dimensional-universe-wide event ever created. Of course, at the end of it three lost heroes from another Valiant Dimension cross over into the VEI universe... HAHAHAHA!

Sorry, I got carried away. But what do you guys think about Morrison?

And if you read this Dino: Give it a thought. And give the man a call

Would it be crazy money to get Grant Morrison?
(exhales)

Morrison on literally anything Valiant would be glorious!

X-O would be a perfect fit, imho. Crazy space stuff, time-travel, and all that, but with a HUGE heart, which to me is the click of X-O: his sense of being forever lost.
I know we're dreaming here, but man, how freaking cool and attention-grabbing would be a mini by Morrison on X-O?

EXACTLY! But let's make at least a maxi out of the mini... Come on, VEI, that's doable!

[Psiot X]

From a few days ago...

...Look at Harbinger Wars and Armor Hunters. Those are the best comic book events and crossovers to happen in comics in recent years. Compare that to Marvel's AXIS (the most reviled event in recent years. How long has it been since Marvel or DC had a really great and loved event.) I think the BOD big mistake was trying to incorporate everyone where they weren't needed like something Marvel or DC would try when they should stick to smaller and more focused ones where they are immensely strong and reader satisfaction high. Rather than one big event they could do wonders with a couple of smaller ones happening at once and loosely connected and they are already equipped to do it. ...

Today. The Variant Cover:




...

[Captain Craig]

The OP is very well thought out. Like another said I'd argue the "art is bad" narrative. While true, some books are better than others for me the art on most is above average to really good.

I also don't wholly support the "VEI needs an architect" narrative either. I'd argue that a level of sameness actually bogs down a swath of books by Bendis or Johns even, at times. Collaboration with someone who is the tie breaking vote, sure but just one guy dictating direction over a number of books isn't always a good thing. For a singular event that can work, has worked but monthly...nah.

As an aside, I still hate that Project Black Sky went no where.

I second that.

[Tim]

The Good: Everything Venditti, Swierzynski, Van Lente, and Dysart built.

The Bad: Everything that Lemire and Kindt ruined.

[ShadowTuga]

In a nutshell, my opinion:
the creators have a DC/Marvel playground, but everyone is sort of working like they were at Image.

Tighter connections between ALL the titles.

The books are still the best shared universe right now, imho, but it needs to feel like we're reading an actual shared universe, aside the Harada/PRS connection. Why not make a story that makes you get ALL of the titles to read it properly? VEI fans are for the most part, All-In.
I think we would love seeing ALL of the characters in a big unifying story.