Book of the Geomancers: Broken?

[Shadowman99]

I'm a bit behind on my reading so I've only really just caught up with Book of Death and the 'Fall of...' one-shots. Looking over the threads related to the 'Fall of...' issues, a lot of people seem to be wondering how much VEI have "written themselves into a corner" having published the 'deaths' of the characters in those books.

What I'm wondering is that in BoD Tama read the prophecy of Gilad's final battle, and how Master Darque comes to rule both Live and Deadside.

Given that Gilad actually defeated MD and his (and the world's) fate deviated from the prophecy in the Book of the Geomancers, it doesn't seem logical to me that these 'Fall of...' issues, which are supposed to be 'from within the pages of the Book of the Geomancers', are any longer applicable to how Bloodshot, XO, Ninjak and Harbinger will in fact, eventually end.

Ergo, VEI haven't written these characters into any corners because the universe is still just as open as it was before the BoD event.

Also, I'm sure it was written back in the first A+A run somewhere that "the pages within the book of the Geomancers are ever-changing", supporting the possibility that the future is open to alternative paths.

What are other people's thoughts on this?

[Keith]

I'm a bit behind on my reading so I've only really just caught up with Book of Death and the 'Fall of...' one-shots. Looking over the threads related to the 'Fall of...' issues, a lot of people seem to be wondering how much VEI have "written themselves into a corner" having published the 'deaths' of the characters in those books.

What I'm wondering is that in BoD Tama read the prophecy of Gilad's final battle, and how Master Darque comes to rule both Live and Deadside.

Given that Gilad actually defeated MD and his (and the world's) fate deviated from the prophecy in the Book of the Geomancers, it doesn't seem logical to me that these 'Fall of...' issues, which are supposed to be 'from within the pages of the Book of the Geomancers', are any longer applicable to how Bloodshot, XO, Ninjak and Harbinger will in fact, eventually end.

Ergo, VEI haven't written these characters into any corners because the universe is still just as open as it was before the BoD event.

Also, I'm sure it was written back in the first A+A run somewhere that "the pages within the book of the Geomancers are ever-changing", supporting the possibility that the future is open to alternative paths.

What are other people's thoughts on this?

Awesome! Let's discuss this, because I have thought about it long and hard and have a different take. My thoughts (and sorry, spoilers are not being used as it would be a pain in the butt):

The Book of the Geomancer is still legit, there are just two different stories being told in it for two different purposes.

I base this on, seemingly, two different futures being told. There is the Darque Future that we see in the Book of Death main issues where Master Darque gains the powers of the Geomancer, conquers the heroes and villains, and then goes on to conquer the world and the Deadside. Then there is the Valiant Future (for lack of a better name) that is being told in the "Fall of" One-Shots that combined detail a different future and, seemingly, the one that comes to pass and leads us up to 4001 AD.

How did I come to this conclusion of two different futures?

Point A) The Darque Future basically spells out that it is aramgeddon, aka The End, aka Sauron gets the Ring, aka the big bad guy wins and the world never EVER recovers. The text makes it clear that Darque conquers the world and the Deadside, and then beebops back and forth between the two continually reconquering them. But, the Valiant Future never once mentions, in the four various stories, anything about Master Darque conquering the world. Not once. In those four stories we see a world that has both war and peace, joy and pain, Bloodshot living with Eskimos and Peter Stanchek heading up the Harbinger Foundation, the peaceful sunshiny fields outside the X-O Manowar Museum and the "Dark Matter Nuked" remains of King's Castle. The Valiant Future shows a world that has continued on, but definitely not one where Master Darque succeeded as seen in the Darque Future. And that leads me to ...

Point B) In fact, it is in those four Valiant Future stories we see mentions of events that tie back to past events (Bloodshot referencing what happens during and after Colorado, the deaths of Joe and Charlene, Aric fighting the Armor Hunters) and see events that influence the future we see in Rai/4001 (Ninjak creating the Spylockes, the launch of New Japan) The Valiant Future is rooted in the events of the past and causes the events of the future. The Darque Future? Only one mention of that past... when Kay died, see my reason why below. The rest of it goes careening off on it's own course that doesn't jive with what we see comes to pass.

So why the two different futures being told in the book?

Simple. The Darque Future Tama relays in Book of Death is an allegorical warning from the Gilad of the future to the Gilad of the present day. "Stop Master Darque from stealing David's powers, or it's all over." The story conveniently tells present day Gilad Who (Master Darque), What (a corrupted Geomancer more powerful than the world's heroes and villains combined) When (After Kay dies, along with the additional signpost of nature going on the attack), as well as spells out the consequences both for the world and potentially himself. Future Gilad sending Tama back in time served various purposes - like getting her away from the Immortal Enemy in the future - but it also made sure to get her and the Darque Future warning in place to defeat Darque taking David's powers. The Valiant Future is what then comes to pass because Master Darque was stopped.

Now then, what about the images of the future that we saw in BoD #1? Those seemed to be true, and Valiant has indicated we will see some of these things come to pass. That is tricky, but I try to justify them as the allegory is wrapped in a cloak of fact... but not sure how to better articulate it. These images will be part of the Valiant Future but that's where I fumble for an explanation as to why they are part of the warning.

Whew... that was a lot... sorry if I went on too much, but like I said, I've been pondering this one for some time now.

[Brapbrap]

^this is correct, there is some true future in the Book of Death series (basically anything that comes before the divergence point of Darque taking over) and all of the fall of stories are completely canon (only FoH is open to interpretation)

-Gin-Gr fleet will still happen
-Archer & Renegades will still happen
-Bloodshot: Dinosaur Hunter will still happen (backed up by BOD:FOB)
-Helix and Sunlight on Snow romance will still happen
-Aric's child will still happen (backed up by BOD: FOXO)
-H.A.R.D. Corps massacre will still happen (backed up by BOD: FOB)
-Outcast will still happen
-The Visitor will still happen
-The Torment will still happen
-Ninjak and Livewire romance will still happen (backed up by Unity)
-Unity team with Punk Mambo, Quartz and the weird psiot twin will still happen
-BEAST BRIGADE will still happen (especially since bloodhound is in the previews for Bloodshot Island
-Bleeding Monk will still die (backed up by BOD:FOH)
-The tumult will maybe still happen

[Nameless7]

Is it canon? let's look at Bloodshot. In the BoD he eventually dies sometime way into the future (maybe even past 4001 as he has apparently gone through a civilization or two) and is still himself (unachanged); that is in his original body.

**Spoilers
But in 4001 (coming this summer) he clearly has a different body (nanite body of some kind). So something is now different because that does not correlate with the BoD issue. And remember the 4001 promo material clearly says that these will be the heroes of today so we can assume that this is the same bloodshot we know and love (and not some other Bloodshot).

[Keith]

Is it canon? let's look at Bloodshot. In the BoD he eventually dies sometime way into the future (maybe even past 4001 as he has apparently gone through a civilization or two) and is still himself (unachanged); that is in his original body.

**Spoilers
But in 4001 (coming this summer) he clearly has a different body (nanite body of some kind). So something is now different because that does not correlate with the BoD issue. And remember the 4001 promo material clearly says that these will be the heroes of today so we can assume that this is the same bloodshot we know and love (and not some other Bloodshot).

I think you need to re-read the solicit for the 4001 AD issue:

Centuries ago, Bloodshot was the man called Ray Garrison. Now, in the year 4001
A.D., Ray Garrison is no more…but the nanites that once thrived inside him endure still. With their master long since gone, the microscopic machines that once drove
Bloodshot through every firefight, healed every wound, and calculated every outcome have one final directive left to execute…but what could it possibly be?
And how will the forces of the future react when the infamous man-turned-machine called Bloodshot returns to fight another day?

That clearly states that Ray Garrison is dead, just like we saw in Fall of Bloodshot.

[cray_ws]

Is it canon? let's look at Bloodshot. In the BoD he eventually dies sometime way into the future (maybe even past 4001 as he has apparently gone through a civilization or two) and is still himself (unachanged); that is in his original body.

**Spoilers
But in 4001 (coming this summer) he clearly has a different body (nanite body of some kind). So something is now different because that does not correlate with the BoD issue. And remember the 4001 promo material clearly says that these will be the heroes of today so we can assume that this is the same bloodshot we know and love (and not some other Bloodshot).

I think you need to re-read the solicit for the 4001 AD issue:

Centuries ago, Bloodshot was the man called Ray Garrison. Now, in the year 4001
A.D., Ray Garrison is no more…but the nanites that once thrived inside him endure still. With their master long since gone, the microscopic machines that once drove
Bloodshot through every firefight, healed every wound, and calculated every outcome have one final directive left to execute…but what could it possibly be?
And how will the forces of the future react when the infamous man-turned-machine called Bloodshot returns to fight another day?

That clearly states that Ray Garrison is dead, just like we saw in Fall of Bloodshot.

Go back and re-read the solicits for all of the BoD issues, including the 'Fall' one-shots. They painted a very drastic picture which never really became true. I'm in agreement with Shadowman99 that the BoD storyline is no longer applicable. But I will say that only a select few things that weren't directly part of the storyline remain applicable to the upcoming 4001. Most cameo appearances or innuendo regarding the future.

Unless the Book of Death itself evolves and reveals new futures, it's pretty much a dead storyline.

[Keith]

Go back and re-read the solicits for all of the BoD issues, including the 'Fall' one-shots. They painted a very drastic picture which never really became true.

Actually, that's a very good point. The Fall of X-O solicit was completely different than what the story turned out to actually be. Don't judge a comic by it's solicitation seems to be an appropriate play on the classic saying. I guess it would be better to wait and see how the story actually plays out before stating definitively based on advertisement.

I'm in agreement with Shadowman99 that the BoD storyline is no longer applicable. But I will say that only a select few things that weren't directly part of the storyline remain applicable to the upcoming 4001. Most cameo appearances or innuendo regarding the future.

Unless the Book of Death itself evolves and reveals new futures, it's pretty much a dead storyline.

So it looks like we have 3 saying it's not canon and 2 saying it is. Hopefully more pitch in to the discussion, because I'm enjoying the poop out of it.

[Brapbrap]

Go back and re-read the solicits for all of the BoD issues, including the 'Fall' one-shots. They painted a very drastic picture which never really became true. I'm in agreement with Shadowman99 that the BoD storyline is no longer applicable. But I will say that only a select few things that weren't directly part of the storyline remain applicable to the upcoming 4001. Most cameo appearances or innuendo regarding the future.

Unless the Book of Death itself evolves and reveals new futures, it's pretty much a dead storyline.

all the press releases for Book of Death say it is canon, the only part that is possibly non-canon is the one recurring scene of a giant unity team fighting darque in the future and the stuff about cities flooding and being reclaimed by nature. i dont know how you can say it is not canon when we are already seeing things that were set up in BoD and the fall of one shots (Faith is becoming the worlds most popular hero just like in FoH, bloodhound is in the next bloodshot arc and was teased in BoD #1, Harada is trying to build a space elevator like the completed ring in FoH, we have seen Ninjak control the cells in his body just like in FoN;, we know there are spylockes in 4000ad and there origin is presumably the same as in FoN, we know livewire is linked to new japan and in FoN she says she helped build it, trill came back just like in BoD #1 and FoXO, Archer is now friends with Faith which can lead to the Archer & Renegades team up in BoD #1)

if its a dead timeline then why are they going out of their way to set up events that we saw in the fall of one-shots and in BoD #1?

[Shadowman99]

Go back and re-read the solicits for all of the BoD issues, including the 'Fall' one-shots. They painted a very drastic picture which never really became true. I'm in agreement with Shadowman99 that the BoD storyline is no longer applicable. But I will say that only a select few things that weren't directly part of the storyline remain applicable to the upcoming 4001. Most cameo appearances or innuendo regarding the future.

Unless the Book of Death itself evolves and reveals new futures, it's pretty much a dead storyline.

All the press releases for Book of Death say it is canon...if its a dead timeline then why are they going out of their way to set up events that we saw in the fall of one-shots and in BoD #1?

I think this is an important distinction to make: I think that the Book of Death comics are canon, but what I'm much less sure of is that their content is to be relied upon as 'set in stone' indication of things that are to come in the future of Valiant comics.

I'm sure that some of the events will certainly come to pass otherwise I don't think there'd be any point in VEI seeding them in the first place, but I don't think it should be taken for granted that each and every one of them will. As I said in my first post, considering that the prophecy within Tama's Book of Geomancers was incorrect and failed to transpire regarding Master Darque conquering Liveside and Deadside, by that logic, the 'Fall of...' issues don't necessarily contain an absolutely certain future. So, the events portrayed within the 'Fall of...' comics can certainly be considered canon per se (if the Book of the Geomancers is viewed as a true parallel to VEI's actual plot plans!), but I don't think that their content regarding future universe events should be taken for granted as guaranteed.

Man, I'm enjoying mulling this one over

I'm also super intrigued to know how VEI plans to reintroduce Master Darque back into the universe in the future. There's no way he's been permanently 'defeated' is there?

[Nameless7]

Ok so here is another take on this whole thing. I think the BoD books were canon at the time they came out. However the events of Book of Death itself showed us that the Book of the Geomancer's contents could be altered - as Gilad was able to do by preventing Darque from wining this round.

In other words I guess the Fall of books are valid and canon - BUT they can be altered because that fact (the alteration of the future that is) is also canon.

All I know is that I love the fact that I care so much about what is happening (and will happen) in the VEI universe!

[hunter_peterson]

Ok so here is another take on this whole thing. I think the BoD books were canon at the time they came out. However the events of Book of Death itself showed us that the Book of the Geomancer's contents could be altered - as Gilad was able to do by preventing Darque from wining this round.

In other words I guess the Fall of books are valid and canon - BUT they can be altered because that fact (the alteration of the future that is) is also canon.

All I know is that I love the fact that I care so much about what is happening (and will happen) in the VEI universe!

Unless the false part of the Book was always there and by sending it back he just completed the time loop. I think everything except the Darque stuff is canon, and even that might be based off of a future conflict. Gilad just made sure everything happened like it was supposed to, with Darque being defeated. He'd done it already.

[Shadowman99]

Ok so here is another take on this whole thing. I think the BoD books were canon at the time they came out. However the events of Book of Death itself showed us that the Book of the Geomancer's contents could be altered - as Gilad was able to do by preventing Darque from wining this round.

In other words I guess the Fall of books are valid and canon - BUT they can be altered because that fact (the alteration of the future that is) is also canon.

All I know is that I love the fact that I care so much about what is happening (and will happen) in the VEI universe!

This is exactly what I'm getting at

Great that you're digging the Valiant dude

[Shadowman99]

Ok so here is another take on this whole thing. I think the BoD books were canon at the time they came out. However the events of Book of Death itself showed us that the Book of the Geomancer's contents could be altered - as Gilad was able to do by preventing Darque from wining this round.

In other words I guess the Fall of books are valid and canon - BUT they can be altered because that fact (the alteration of the future that is) is also canon.

All I know is that I love the fact that I care so much about what is happening (and will happen) in the VEI universe!

Unless the false part of the Book was always there and by sending it back he just completed the time loop. I think everything except the Darque stuff is canon, and even that might be based off of a future conflict. Gilad just made sure everything happened like it was supposed to, with Darque being defeated. He'd done it already.

Whoa... Nice line of thought!

It'd be one heck of a sucker punch from VEI though, as I'm sure the BoD 'event' was supposed to be the resolution of this conflict between Darque/Gilad: can you imagine if in the future VEI go "Ha! Tricked you! The book foretold of a future event all along!"

[hunter_peterson]

Ok so here is another take on this whole thing. I think the BoD books were canon at the time they came out. However the events of Book of Death itself showed us that the Book of the Geomancer's contents could be altered - as Gilad was able to do by preventing Darque from wining this round.

In other words I guess the Fall of books are valid and canon - BUT they can be altered because that fact (the alteration of the future that is) is also canon.

All I know is that I love the fact that I care so much about what is happening (and will happen) in the VEI universe!

Unless the false part of the Book was always there and by sending it back he just completed the time loop. I think everything except the Darque stuff is canon, and even that might be based off of a future conflict. Gilad just made sure everything happened like it was supposed to, with Darque being defeated. He'd done it already.

Whoa... Nice line of thought!

It'd be one heck of a sucker punch from VEI though, as I'm sure the BoD 'event' was supposed to be the resolution of this conflict between Darque/Gilad: can you imagine if in the future VEI go "Ha! Tricked you! The book foretold of a future event all along!"

In a meta way, Book of Death would have been a warning for Book of Death.

[Shadowman99]

Ok so here is another take on this whole thing. I think the BoD books were canon at the time they came out. However the events of Book of Death itself showed us that the Book of the Geomancer's contents could be altered - as Gilad was able to do by preventing Darque from wining this round.

In other words I guess the Fall of books are valid and canon - BUT they can be altered because that fact (the alteration of the future that is) is also canon.

All I know is that I love the fact that I care so much about what is happening (and will happen) in the VEI universe!

Unless the false part of the Book was always there and by sending it back he just completed the time loop. I think everything except the Darque stuff is canon, and even that might be based off of a future conflict. Gilad just made sure everything happened like it was supposed to, with Darque being defeated. He'd done it already.

Whoa... Nice line of thought!

It'd be one heck of a sucker punch from VEI though, as I'm sure the BoD 'event' was supposed to be the resolution of this conflict between Darque/Gilad: can you imagine if in the future VEI go "Ha! Tricked you! The book foretold of a future event all along!"

In a meta way, Book of Death would have been a warning for Book of Death.

Absolutely!