BoD #1 was the 1st appearance of *NEW* Female Hero

[FormerReader]

I think it counts as a 1st app. Cause Valiant just told us it was.

I don't think the market will agree. An appearance on one page (not to mention in the background) only makes it a cameo.

It shows the purposeful moves and far planning of Valiant.

I agree! I love the long term planning.

[Elveen]

I think it counts as a 1st app. Cause Valiant just told us it was.

I don't think the market will agree. An appearance on one page (not to mention in the background) only makes it a cameo.

It shows the purposeful moves and far planning of Valiant.

I agree! I love the long term planning.

I love the cameo vs 1st app discussion cause each side can bring up specific issues that proves their point cause the industry has no set guidelines.

I think this case is (might be) different cause Valiant said so.

We will see. Right know my vote is 1st because the dudes making the books said so. Kind like when Stone Cold Steve Austin says so. Same thing.

[agent_graves]

I think it counts as a 1st app. Cause Valiant just told us it was.

I don't think the market will agree. An appearance on one page (not to mention in the background) only makes it a cameo.

+1 1st-cameo (BOD #1)
1st-full* (4001 AD #1 Classified)

*Unless she appears at some point in the event, before her one shot...

It shows the purposeful moves and far planning of Valiant.

I agree! I love the long term planning.

+2

[nycjadie]

I think it counts as a 1st app. Cause Valiant just told us it was.

I actually like this move a TON! This is what gets attention and noise in today's market place.
And the good thing for VEI is that the books are good so anything they can do to get attention to their product is a win.

It's like Jack B in X-O #4. We all love that, this is no different.
It shows the purposeful moves and far planning of Valiant.

+1 all the way. It's a conversation. You may not love it, but it creates an opinion. I think it's brilliant, and far more ambitious than anything in the history of the big 2. You've got to give credit where credit is due.

[DirtbagSailor]

I say this;

Valiant said BoD #1 is the 1st appearance.

It's the 1st time those characters appear in print.

There may be better, more in-depth appearances to come, but they all will have been published nearly a year after BoD #1.

[Shadowman99]

I'm still unconvinced. I'm seeing things the same way as Jmatt here: unless the character has been given some context like having a name mentioned or having actually influenced the plot of an issue in some way then they're just background colour. Doesn't cut it as a proper 'first appearance' to me at all.

[BugsySig]

I think it counts as a 1st app. Cause Valiant just told us it was.

I actually like this move a TON! This is what gets attention and noise in today's market place.
And the good thing for VEI is that the books are good so anything they can do to get attention to their product is a win.

It's like Jack B in X-O #4. We all love that, this is no different.
It shows the purposeful moves and far planning of Valiant.

+1 all the way. It's a conversation. You may not love it, but it creates an opinion. I think it's brilliant, and far more ambitious than anything in the history of the big 2. You've got to give credit where credit is due.

I have to disagree. Pointing out an issue already out of print is a character's first appearance, while great for the marketplace and building good will and discussion amongst collectors, does nothing for current orders or future sales. Those are much more important for VEI as a company. Now you've potentially decreased demand for 4001 AD #1 as the first appearance of a major new character and/or the characters first eponymous #1 issue.

[FormerReader]

I say this;

Valiant said BoD #1 is the 1st appearance.

It's the 1st time those characters appear in print.

There may be better, more in-depth appearances to come, but they all will have been published nearly a year after BoD #1.

Marvel also said wolverines first appearance is IH#180. The market says otherwise.

Counter to this is IH#180, X-Factor #5, Man of Steel #17, Amazing Spiderman #299, New Mutants #86 (an ad at that). I think this book and whatever the next book the characters appear in will be Valiant keys, but the market seems to always go with the first full appearance.

[DirtbagSailor]

I say this;

Valiant said BoD #1 is the 1st appearance.

It's the 1st time those characters appear in print.

There may be better, more in-depth appearances to come, but they all will have been published nearly a year after BoD #1.

Marvel also said wolverines first appearance is IH#180. The market says otherwise.

Counter to this is IH#180, X-Factor #5, Man of Steel #17, Amazing Spiderman #299, New Mutants #86 (an ad at that). I think this book and whatever the next book the characters appear in will be Valiant keys, but the market seems to always go with the first full appearance.

This is, and is not, always the case entirely.

The market always for the book that they are most invested in and/or is the harder to find.

For example, 30,000 people buy Hulk #181, and then 5 guys say "Wait! What about #180????"

They collectively reply "ummm.... Yea. We already paid a LOT of money on #181 and don't really feel like losing that money right now. Thanks, but we're not looking to stop this party..."

Other cases exist where the cameo dominates.

The market will tell (as it does) but don't be surprised if it goes either way. I'm certainly going to write about it; but not until the next appearance is released. Then I'm going to toss these books into the pit of public opinion, and let the battle commence!

[FormerReader]

I say this;

Valiant said BoD #1 is the 1st appearance.

It's the 1st time those characters appear in print.

There may be better, more in-depth appearances to come, but they all will have been published nearly a year after BoD #1.

Marvel also said wolverines first appearance is IH#180. The market says otherwise.

Counter to this is IH#180, X-Factor #5, Man of Steel #17, Amazing Spiderman #299, New Mutants #86 (an ad at that). I think this book and whatever the next book the characters appear in will be Valiant keys, but the market seems to always go with the first full appearance.

This is, and is not, always the case entirely.

The market always for the book that they are most invested in and/or is the harder to find.

For example, 30,000 people buy Hulk #181, and then 5 guys say "Wait! What about #180????"

They collectively reply "ummm.... Yea. We already paid a LOT of money on #181 and don't really feel like losing that money right now. Thanks, but we're not looking to stop this party..."

Other cases exist where the cameo dominates.

The market will tell (as it does) but don't be surprised if it goes either way. I'm certainly going to write about it; but not until the next appearance is released. Then I'm going to toss these books into the pit of public opinion, and let the battle commence!

A cameo will have some value, but I cannot think of a single instance where the cameo is the book people go after. The first full appearance book is always the more expensive book followed by the cameo as far as I know. If I'm wrong please correct me. I still picked the 1:60 up as a Valiant key, but I'll obviously be looking to pick up the first full appearance.

[nycjadie]

Eternal Warrior 4
X-O 4

[DirtbagSailor]

Gobbledygook #1 vs TMNT #1

[DirtbagSailor]

Malibu Sun #13 vs Spawn #1

[FormerReader]

Eternal Warrior 4
X-O 4

Good points. I think in both cases this occurred after the DMG cash infusion correct. Prior to this the books were less sought after then Rai #0 and Shadowman #1.

[FormerReader]

Malibu Sun #13 vs Spawn #1

Come on now man. Spawn #1 had a massive print run. You're right, but that is an extreme instance. 4001 A.D. is not going to have a 1,000,000 print run.

[Keith]

Eternal Warrior 4
X-O 4

Good points. I think in both cases this occurred after the DMG cash infusion correct. Prior to this the books were less sought after then Rai #0 and Shadowman #1.

Not back in the 90s.

[FormerReader]

Eternal Warrior 4
X-O 4

Good points. I think in both cases this occurred after the DMG cash infusion correct. Prior to this the books were less sought after then Rai #0 and Shadowman #1.

Not back in the 90s.

Couldn't remember.

[nycjadie]

I think the cameo/first appearance will continue to spur on debate and conversations. I love it. Not sure I feel strongly one way or another, but it's fun collecting them. I think it's cool that the BoD is a series that will play out for years to come. I can't think of a similar book. You could argue GS X-Men 1 is that for Uncanny and the X-Men universe of books. Maybe. Other series tried to pull together inconsistent storylines (e.g. Crisis). Nothing comes to mind that is quite like this. That's why I think it's innovative.

[Phantom]

Just think, I put this senerio before you hypotheticaly.

In a few years time, this is a really hot character.
The first appearance is a head and torso in a panel of 25? other charactors. Not even in the foreground, just a very small background figure. No name., nothing.

Or an apperance, speculating, name mentioned, info on on ccharacter multiple images inncluded in story?

It's a cameo. Cookie. To show how valiant plans ahead.

When is John Constantines hellblazer first appearance? The random guy that the artist usefdto draw in a trenchcoat in background panels? (As the story goes.) Or swsmpthing
37?

[nycjadie]

Both!?

[Elveen]

I think it counts as a 1st app. Cause Valiant just told us it was.

I actually like this move a TON! This is what gets attention and noise in today's market place.
And the good thing for VEI is that the books are good so anything they can do to get attention to their product is a win.

It's like Jack B in X-O #4. We all love that, this is no different.
It shows the purposeful moves and far planning of Valiant.

+1 all the way. It's a conversation. You may not love it, but it creates an opinion. I think it's brilliant, and far more ambitious than anything in the history of the big 2. You've got to give credit where credit is due.

I have to disagree. Pointing out an issue already out of print is a character's first appearance, while great for the marketplace and building good will and discussion amongst collectors, does nothing for current orders or future sales. Those are much more important for VEI as a company. Now you've potentially decreased demand for 4001 AD #1 as the first appearance of a major new character and/or the characters first eponymous #1 issue.

Here is the flip side. Valiant currently has ZERO back issue heat. They had some for a sec with Divinity, and DBS is trying his best to get some going (great job DBS) but they NEED some book that can get some spec heat. They need it as a company to create interest in the line.

I think this type of thing can totally drive sales as peeps (specs or whatever) think.... "they snuck a 1st app in before, maybe they will do it again". They NEED some of this.

I don't want Valiant to become what was Black Mask was for a hot min. All (or 75%) spec driven and then..... "crickets" (I know it's not a great comparison, but you get it.)

But Valiant needs some of this. They need a book that people can search for. Just like they, at some point, need a booth at SDCC. It validates them. How can you be a comic book publishing company and have ZERO spec books? They need it. I believe the movies will be the BIG beginning for them in this regard, but if some peeps start looking for BoD #1 cause Valiant TOLD THEM that an important 1st app is in there.... then good.

I don't think this has ANY bad consequences for future sales of ANY book. Any news only helps. Valiant needs to find a away to get into the comic book consumer consciousness.

[Elveen]

Also,

Book of Death #1 has only just begun to mean something. You could have a book that has numerous 1st app. / cameos.

That = gold Jerry, gold!

[Elveen]

BoD #1 for the win!

[ShadowTuga]

JUST MY 2 C€NTS:
I think it's a great and smart move. Love it. Means that BoD will indeed matter sooner than we thought. I'm all in!

[FormerReader]

Here is the flip side. Valiant currently has ZERO back issue heat. They had some for a sec with Divinity, and DBS is trying his best to get some going (great job DBS) but they NEED some book that can get some spec heat. They need it as a company to create interest in the line.

My concern on some of these books is Valiant collectors rushing out to buy the books and in a week or two the market moves on and the books lose their value and it burns out the fan base. I guess I'm trying to be a little more cautious. I Gotta give DBS credit though I love his enthusiasm even if I don't always agree with it.

But Valiant needs some of this. They need a book that people can search for. Just like they, at some point, need a booth at SDCC. It validates them. How can you be a comic book publishing company and have ZERO spec books? They need it. I believe the movies will be the BIG beginning for them in this regard, but if some peeps start looking for BoD #1 cause Valiant TOLD THEM that an important 1st app is in there.... then good.

I agree that speculation is good as long as it brings in readers along with the flippers/speculators. I like seeing back issues increase in value, but I want to see the monthly sales numbers increase more.