Time travel rules in Valiant?

[Ryan]

My question is specifically regarding VH1. There was a lot of time travel, especially post-Unity. Were there ever any rules that were laid out or explained in Timewalker or anywhere else? I can't remember any.

I assume post-Unity was using the easy 'Back to the Future' approach where a person can travel through time and change some event and it wouldn't have a butterfly effect that would have unforeseen consequences. Although this approach doesn't hold up if you really think about it, it's much easier to grasp for simpler stories.

The only time travel I can remember during pre-Unity was maybe the beginning of Solar (if that was time travel) and of course Unity. Which IIRC explained a theory that the Lost Land functions outside of normal time, being a sort of hub that can be entered from different 'outside' times, and it will be the same present time for everyone? This also doesn't hold up the more you think about it, but it's complicated enough that I just give up and accept it for the story.

The pre-Unity theory of time travel was probably similar to the 80's Marvel theory since that was also developed by Shooter and Gruenwald, which is laid out in this bleeding cool article:

The Jim Shooter Files: The Rules Of Time Travel for Marvel Comics

Published Thu, 28 Nov 2019 13:30:14 -0600 by Rich Johnston

Last month's MCM London Comic Con had Jim Shooter as a guest, and at his table were a number of folders, binders, full of memos, sketches, artwork from his long career at DC, Marvel, Valiant and more. He graciously allowed Bleeding Cool to take shots of a few of them, but these are just the tip of the iceberg of the folders he often brings to shows. But for Thanksgiving, Bleeding Cool will be sharing a few of them, and you can check the rest with this handy dandy tag.

Sorry for the blurriness, but I've done the squinting for you. Marvel editor and writer Mark Gruenwald famously laid out some time travel rules, that were used pretty much as originally planned in Avengers: Endgame recently. They were originally published for readers in Marvel Age in 1992.

Mark Gruenwald's Rules Of Time Travel

One of the more interesting aspects of my job as Senior Executive Editor is I was the one who got to research, work out, and write up the rules pertaining to time travel in the Marvel Universe for our in-house editors' policy handbook. Before I came on the scene, Marvel– a publishing outfit which prides itself on its internal consistency– was a wee bit relaxed when it came to how time travel worked. Writers were free to have it work every which way (including loose) with no regard to what had already been established. Once I was designated consistency cop, it was up to me to develop the rules of M.U. time travel using the consensus of information. It was a job I must admit I relished since, ever since my self-published fanzine days, I was interested in the way fictional realities worked. So, printed here for a general audience for the first time are Marvel's official rules of time travel…

Time travel should be used very sparingly in order to keep the phenomenon as special as possible. To ensure that future usage of the phenomenon are kept consistent with the majority of past usages, observe the following principles:

1. The Marvel Universe is part of a multiverse (a system of related universes) which diverge from one another at critical junctures.

2. The act of time travel always produces a critical juncture diverging a new alternate timeline or world at the moment one enters the reality of another time period, past or future of the time period set out from. It creates one timeline where an extratemporal person or element materialized via time travel, and one 'virgin' timeline where that person or element did not.

3. Because it is impossible to travel to the 'virgin' timeline, and because divergent timelines are dimensionally displaced from one's root timeline, all time travel actually involves dimensional travel. A time traveler does not truly travel straight backwards or forwards in time, but backwards or forwards and a bit off to the side to a divergent timeline now running parallel to one's timeline of origin. Since this timeline will have been identical to the 'virgin' timeline until the moment of divergence, there will be virtually no differences between the two timelines until most time travelers have no reason to be aware that they are not on the 'virgin' timeline.

4. If one travels a second time to an era one has already been to, one will not materialize on the 'virgin' timeline nor the timeline diverged by one's previous trip, but a third timeline diverged from one or the other. A time traveler can never travel back to the exact same timeline more than once. Again, since the second and third divergent timelines are identical until the time traveler's arrival, they will be indistinguishable at first.

5. When one travels a second time to any era in which one already exists, it will be possible to meet a temporal counterpart of one's self already there. A new counterpart diverges into being every single time a time traveler travels to a timeline one already exists in. Subsequently, multiple temporal counterparts could co-exist through multiple time trips to the same time period.

6. The co-existence of mulitple counterparts of the same being on one timeline does not cause time paradoxes. Time paradoxes are only possible in single timeline universes.

7. Altering an incident in the past will indeed affect the future reality of the timeline diverged by the time traveler's presence. One can create any number of different divergencies by one's significant actions, the act of time travel being but the first. Whether one will be able to return to the present of the timeline where one did no reality-tampering divergences or one which diverged as a consequence of one's past actions is a function of the means of time travel.

8. Returning to one's present also creates a divergent reality. If one has been gone any length of time, one may find differences have accumulated in accordance with the length of time one was away.

9. Selective alterations in the present as a consequence of the time traveler's actions in the past do not occur. An alteration in the past will create an entirely new timeline with events proceeding smoothly from the point of divergence. To the denzins of that timeline's 'present', the past is a continuous series of events that always happened as they happened. Were one to see selective dematerializations, they would either be caused by something other than the act of time travel unto itself or would be hallucinations.

10. There are three possible methods of time travel in the Marvel Universe: a. Time travel machines (Dr. Doom, Kang). b. Magic (Dr. Strange, Thor's hammer). c. Personally generated energy (Silver Surfer).

All methods involve generating 'chronal displacement inertia' freeing one's chronological position in the timestream (just as escape velocity frees one from earth's gravitation), skimming through the extra-temporal realm outside the timestream (Limbo), and re-entering the timestream at another chronological position. Because no time exists outside the timestream, the perceived duration of the passage through limbo may be anything from non-existent to an eternity.

11. If any of the above is confusing to you or your writers, you may ask the Senior Executive Editor for clarification. If it still is confusing, you should not be doing a time travel story. The above principles only apply to the Marvel Universe; other fictional realities may have other rules of time travel.

That's it, the full text of the Time Travel section in the Marvel editors' handbook. Despite the occasional technical term or two, this is as clear and most straightforward I can be on this admittedly difficult subject. Like any set of rules, they can be perceived as stifling, depending on a writer's mindset. Some writers are in love with the idea of paradox and keep thinking they've discovered a new paradox so cool it deserves to be put in a Marvel mag. Personally, I find the rules reassuring, but I'm a wee bit prejudiced. I've done a few stories involving time travel, including one in two of this summer's annuals (no plug allowed), and I find the guidelines both easy and fun to work within.

But it may have been Jim Shooter who laid them out first, in this memo from June 22nd, 1983.


In a recent issue of The Thing it was established that time travel is 'sideways' — that travel in time is really travel into parallel worlds which are 'ahead' or 'behind' ours, though otherwise similar.

Some people object to the above however, preferring the 'divergence' theory — that the 'present' the here and now, is our 'time line'. Travel back along our time line is possible, however, altering events of the past creates an alternate time line which splits off at the point of difference — in effect a parallel world which reflects that change. Travel into the future is actually travel 'in the right direction' of our time line into a dimension which might or might not be ours — 'a possible future'. There are infinite possible futures, of course, and 'our' path could diverge into any one of them.

These theories are not mutually exclusive, so until further notice, both will be considered valid. However, until we settle a firmer policy, please be extra careful with time travel stories! Editors I'd like to be advised of any such stories you plan until further notice!

In Marvel Two-in-One #50 by John Byrne, published in 1979, Reed Richards advises Ben Grimm that the cure Reed has developed for his condition will not work, leading Ben time-travels to the past to give himself the cure at an earlier stage, when it might work. It does, but on return to the present, nothing has changed. Reed advises him that he succeeded only in creating an alternative universe.



But in Marvel Two-in-One #100 published in June 1983, also written by John Byrne, Reed examines records of that trip and determines that Ben did not create that reality after all, based on a newspaper that shows the name of the city as "New Amsterdam" instead of "New York". Ben returns to that reality, where Ben Grimm is a bartender and the leader of the remaining humans in a post-apocalyptic city.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/jim-sho ... el-comics/

[ManofTheAtom]

Nice.

[Ryan]

Also if anyone knows what the VEI time travel rules were too (if there were any). I know they had a Timewalker series too, but I never read it. And any recent good time travel movies or series like Primer?

[ManofTheAtom]

Also if anyone knows what the VEI time travel rules were too (if there were any). I know they had a Timewalker series too, but I never read it. And any recent good time travel movies or series like Primer?

The main rule is that history could not be changed. Period. And to always carry bubblegum.

[magnusr]

Help me remember, didn't Ivar say something like "It has already happened so you might just as well show up and have some fun"?

Then again, in the Harbinger wars storyarc he actually changed history.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

Help me remember, didn't Ivar say something like "It has already happened so you might just as well show up and have some fun"?

Then again, in the Harbinger wars storyarc he actually changed history.

/Magnus

Yes he did.

Rule one tells us that even though it appeared as if he had changed history, in truth he did not. What he did ("changed" things and then "set them back") was ALWAYS supposed to happen.

[Ryan]

Help me remember, didn't Ivar say something like "It has already happened so you might just as well show up and have some fun"?

Then again, in the Harbinger wars storyarc he actually changed history.

/Magnus

Thanks Magnus, that does bring back some memories. The general rule was that there was one timeline and any time travel would only reinforce or unintentionally cause the 'correct' outcome to happen. So even with knowledge of the future it would be impossible to actually change the outcome, thus leading to Jack jumping off a building to see how far that theory will go.

Of course they contradicted that theory at times as well, but that's to be expected. Was it ever explained why Magnus traveled back to the 20th century post-Chaos Effect? In my memory that storyline was never resolved, but maybe I just missed the ending.

Yes he did.

Rule one tells us that even though it appeared as if he had changed history, in truth he did not. What he did ("changed" things and then "set them back") was ALWAYS supposed to happen.

That rule does allow for time travel and keeps everything in one timeline. It also creates problems and paradoxes the more you use it, but any time travel theory will do that.

[ManofTheAtom]

Help me remember, didn't Ivar say something like "It has already happened so you might just as well show up and have some fun"?

Then again, in the Harbinger wars storyarc he actually changed history.

/Magnus

Thanks Magnus, that does bring back some memories. The general rule was that there was one timeline and any time travel would only reinforce or unintentionally cause the 'correct' outcome to happen. So even with knowledge of the future it would be impossible to actually change the outcome, thus leading to Jack jumping off a building to see how far that theory will go.

Of course they contradicted that theory at times as well, but that's to be expected. Was it ever explained why Magnus traveled back to the 20th century post-Chaos Effect? In my memory that storyline was never resolved, but maybe I just missed the ending.

Yes he did.

Rule one tells us that even though it appeared as if he had changed history, in truth he did not. What he did ("changed" things and then "set them back") was ALWAYS supposed to happen.

That rule does allow for time travel and keeps everything in one timeline. It also creates problems and paradoxes the more you use it, but any time travel theory will do that.

It allows for history to change and then be put back the way it was because it was always supposed to happen.

The Visitor hailed from the altered timeline but survived into the normal timeline.

It's worth noting that the Visitor debuted in Chaos Effect Alpha, which was published before the Timewalker series. The effect, thus, (the Visitor) preceded the cause (the Harbinger Wars Trilogy)

[Ryan]

Help me remember, didn't Ivar say something like "It has already happened so you might just as well show up and have some fun"?

Then again, in the Harbinger wars storyarc he actually changed history.

/Magnus

Thanks Magnus, that does bring back some memories. The general rule was that there was one timeline and any time travel would only reinforce or unintentionally cause the 'correct' outcome to happen. So even with knowledge of the future it would be impossible to actually change the outcome, thus leading to Jack jumping off a building to see how far that theory will go.

Of course they contradicted that theory at times as well, but that's to be expected. Was it ever explained why Magnus traveled back to the 20th century post-Chaos Effect? In my memory that storyline was never resolved, but maybe I just missed the ending.

Yes he did.

Rule one tells us that even though it appeared as if he had changed history, in truth he did not. What he did ("changed" things and then "set them back") was ALWAYS supposed to happen.

That rule does allow for time travel and keeps everything in one timeline. It also creates problems and paradoxes the more you use it, but any time travel theory will do that.

It allows for history to change and then be put back the way it was because it was always supposed to happen.

The Visitor hailed from the altered timeline but survived into the normal timeline.

It's worth noting that the Visitor debuted in Chaos Effect Alpha, which was published before the Timewalker series. The effect, thus, (the Visitor) preceded the cause (the Harbinger Wars Trilogy)

Interesting. So I wonder if there's an in-story explanation as to why this case was different. How could an alternate Stanchek travel through time to change the past when the established rules are that altering the course of events through time travel is impossible?

Could the events of Chaos Effect and the re-creation of the Lost Land led to an altering of the main timeline in a way that created anomalies that took it off the path of the timeline laid out in Rai 0?

It would help explain a lot of what's happened after CE - Birthquake, VH2, U2K, VEI, etc. I'd have to read it again to see if that fits.

[ManofTheAtom]

Help me remember, didn't Ivar say something like "It has already happened so you might just as well show up and have some fun"?

Then again, in the Harbinger wars storyarc he actually changed history.

/Magnus

Thanks Magnus, that does bring back some memories. The general rule was that there was one timeline and any time travel would only reinforce or unintentionally cause the 'correct' outcome to happen. So even with knowledge of the future it would be impossible to actually change the outcome, thus leading to Jack jumping off a building to see how far that theory will go.

Of course they contradicted that theory at times as well, but that's to be expected. Was it ever explained why Magnus traveled back to the 20th century post-Chaos Effect? In my memory that storyline was never resolved, but maybe I just missed the ending.

Yes he did.

Rule one tells us that even though it appeared as if he had changed history, in truth he did not. What he did ("changed" things and then "set them back") was ALWAYS supposed to happen.

That rule does allow for time travel and keeps everything in one timeline. It also creates problems and paradoxes the more you use it, but any time travel theory will do that.

It allows for history to change and then be put back the way it was because it was always supposed to happen.

The Visitor hailed from the altered timeline but survived into the normal timeline.

It's worth noting that the Visitor debuted in Chaos Effect Alpha, which was published before the Timewalker series. The effect, thus, (the Visitor) preceded the cause (the Harbinger Wars Trilogy)

Interesting. So I wonder if there's an in-story explanation as to why this case was different. How could an alternate Stanchek travel through time to change the past when the established rules are that altering the course of events through time travel is impossible?

Could the events of Chaos Effect and the re-creation of the Lost Land led to an altering of the main timeline in a way that created anomalies that took it off the path of the timeline laid out in Rai 0?

It would help explain a lot of what's happened after CE - Birthquake, VH2, U2K, VEI, etc. I'd have to read it again to see if that fits.

If a Pete Stanchek anomaly exists, it's because he was always meant to exist.

[Ryan]

If a Pete Stanchek anomaly exists, it's because he was always meant to exist.

Yeah if it happened, it happened. I'm just trying to make it fit logically within the framework of what had been established before. Probably an impossible task when dealing with Post-Chaos Effect Valiant.

[ManofTheAtom]

If a Pete Stanchek anomaly exists, it's because he was always meant to exist.

Yeah if it happened, it happened. I'm just trying to make it fit logically within the framework of what had been established before. Probably an impossible task when dealing with Post-Chaos Effect Valiant.

Had much been established before about time travel? I don't remember it being a topic, really.

But just like the Visitor was always meant to exist, then so was Phil Seleski destroying the world and then going back in time to before he destroyed it supposed to happen too.

[Ryan]

If a Pete Stanchek anomaly exists, it's because he was always meant to exist.

Yeah if it happened, it happened. I'm just trying to make it fit logically within the framework of what had been established before. Probably an impossible task when dealing with Post-Chaos Effect Valiant.

Had much been established before about time travel? I don't remember it being a topic, really.

But just like the Visitor was always meant to exist, then so was Phil Seleski destroying the world and then going back in time to before he destroyed it supposed to happen too.

That's what I was asking in this thread, what had been established about the time travel rules? Time travel was certainly used a lot in post-Unity, so there had to be some rules, even if they were only seen in action and never explicitly explained

I'd have to re-read Timewalker and the other time travel stories to look at it closer. What Magnus said is what I remember, initially the course of events was unchangeable, any action that tried to change an event in the past would only inadvertently cause that event to happen anyway. Which means there's no alternate timelines being created or negated through time travel.

This is later contradicted in Harb wars and the Visitor. And when Jack jumps off the building, he's testing that theory as well. There could be more examples, but I haven't read those in a long time

[ManofTheAtom]

If a Pete Stanchek anomaly exists, it's because he was always meant to exist.

Yeah if it happened, it happened. I'm just trying to make it fit logically within the framework of what had been established before. Probably an impossible task when dealing with Post-Chaos Effect Valiant.

Had much been established before about time travel? I don't remember it being a topic, really.

But just like the Visitor was always meant to exist, then so was Phil Seleski destroying the world and then going back in time to before he destroyed it supposed to happen too.

That's what I was asking in this thread, what had been established about the time travel rules? Time travel was certainly used a lot in post-Unity, so there had to be some rules, even if they were only seen in action and never explicitly explained

I'd have to re-read Timewalker and the other time travel stories to look at it closer. What Magnus said is what I remember, initially the course of events was unchangeable, any action that tried to change an event in the past would only inadvertently cause that event to happen anyway. Which means there's no alternate timelines being created or negated through time travel.

This is later contradicted in Harb wars and the Visitor. And when Jack jumps off the building, he's testing that theory as well. There could be more examples, but I haven't read those in a long time

The point would be, though, that even though the Harbinger Wars trilogy might make it appear as if history was changed, the truth is that it really wasn't, in that it did change but then turned back to how it was supposed to be. Both events were always supposed to happen.

[Ryan]

If a Pete Stanchek anomaly exists, it's because he was always meant to exist.

Yeah if it happened, it happened. I'm just trying to make it fit logically within the framework of what had been established before. Probably an impossible task when dealing with Post-Chaos Effect Valiant.

Had much been established before about time travel? I don't remember it being a topic, really.

But just like the Visitor was always meant to exist, then so was Phil Seleski destroying the world and then going back in time to before he destroyed it supposed to happen too.

That's what I was asking in this thread, what had been established about the time travel rules? Time travel was certainly used a lot in post-Unity, so there had to be some rules, even if they were only seen in action and never explicitly explained

I'd have to re-read Timewalker and the other time travel stories to look at it closer. What Magnus said is what I remember, initially the course of events was unchangeable, any action that tried to change an event in the past would only inadvertently cause that event to happen anyway. Which means there's no alternate timelines being created or negated through time travel.

This is later contradicted in Harb wars and the Visitor. And when Jack jumps off the building, he's testing that theory as well. There could be more examples, but I haven't read those in a long time

The point would be, though, that even though the Harbinger Wars trilogy might make it appear as if history was changed, the truth is that it really wasn't, in that it did change but then turned back to how it was supposed to be. Both events were always supposed to happen.

That begs the question, if nothing can be changed or altered, why even time travel at all?

[ManofTheAtom]

If a Pete Stanchek anomaly exists, it's because he was always meant to exist.

Yeah if it happened, it happened. I'm just trying to make it fit logically within the framework of what had been established before. Probably an impossible task when dealing with Post-Chaos Effect Valiant.

Had much been established before about time travel? I don't remember it being a topic, really.

But just like the Visitor was always meant to exist, then so was Phil Seleski destroying the world and then going back in time to before he destroyed it supposed to happen too.

That's what I was asking in this thread, what had been established about the time travel rules? Time travel was certainly used a lot in post-Unity, so there had to be some rules, even if they were only seen in action and never explicitly explained

I'd have to re-read Timewalker and the other time travel stories to look at it closer. What Magnus said is what I remember, initially the course of events was unchangeable, any action that tried to change an event in the past would only inadvertently cause that event to happen anyway. Which means there's no alternate timelines being created or negated through time travel.

This is later contradicted in Harb wars and the Visitor. And when Jack jumps off the building, he's testing that theory as well. There could be more examples, but I haven't read those in a long time

The point would be, though, that even though the Harbinger Wars trilogy might make it appear as if history was changed, the truth is that it really wasn't, in that it did change but then turned back to how it was supposed to be. Both events were always supposed to happen.

That begs the question, if nothing can be changed or altered, why even time travel at all?

To see what was, what is, and what will be.

Ivar time traveled to reunite with Nefertiti.

[Ryan]

Yeah if it happened, it happened. I'm just trying to make it fit logically within the framework of what had been established before. Probably an impossible task when dealing with Post-Chaos Effect Valiant.

Had much been established before about time travel? I don't remember it being a topic, really.

But just like the Visitor was always meant to exist, then so was Phil Seleski destroying the world and then going back in time to before he destroyed it supposed to happen too.

That's what I was asking in this thread, what had been established about the time travel rules? Time travel was certainly used a lot in post-Unity, so there had to be some rules, even if they were only seen in action and never explicitly explained

I'd have to re-read Timewalker and the other time travel stories to look at it closer. What Magnus said is what I remember, initially the course of events was unchangeable, any action that tried to change an event in the past would only inadvertently cause that event to happen anyway. Which means there's no alternate timelines being created or negated through time travel.

This is later contradicted in Harb wars and the Visitor. And when Jack jumps off the building, he's testing that theory as well. There could be more examples, but I haven't read those in a long time

The point would be, though, that even though the Harbinger Wars trilogy might make it appear as if history was changed, the truth is that it really wasn't, in that it did change but then turned back to how it was supposed to be. Both events were always supposed to happen.

That begs the question, if nothing can be changed or altered, why even time travel at all?

To see what was, what is, and what will be.

Ivar time traveled to reunite with Nefertiti.

That's cool. It does seem like in some of the stories, the characters at least think they have the ability to change events. I guess it boils down to the classic philosophical argument of determinism vs. free will. The Valiant characters may think they're acting out of free will, but they're actually just fulfilling their pre-determined roles in a deterministic universe.

[ManofTheAtom]

Had much been established before about time travel? I don't remember it being a topic, really.

But just like the Visitor was always meant to exist, then so was Phil Seleski destroying the world and then going back in time to before he destroyed it supposed to happen too.

That's what I was asking in this thread, what had been established about the time travel rules? Time travel was certainly used a lot in post-Unity, so there had to be some rules, even if they were only seen in action and never explicitly explained

I'd have to re-read Timewalker and the other time travel stories to look at it closer. What Magnus said is what I remember, initially the course of events was unchangeable, any action that tried to change an event in the past would only inadvertently cause that event to happen anyway. Which means there's no alternate timelines being created or negated through time travel.

This is later contradicted in Harb wars and the Visitor. And when Jack jumps off the building, he's testing that theory as well. There could be more examples, but I haven't read those in a long time

The point would be, though, that even though the Harbinger Wars trilogy might make it appear as if history was changed, the truth is that it really wasn't, in that it did change but then turned back to how it was supposed to be. Both events were always supposed to happen.

That begs the question, if nothing can be changed or altered, why even time travel at all?

To see what was, what is, and what will be.

Ivar time traveled to reunite with Nefertiti.

That's cool. It does seem like in some of the stories, the characters at least think they have the ability to change events. I guess it boils down to the classic philosophical argument of determinism vs. free will. The Valiant characters may think they're acting out of free will, but they're actually just fulfilling their pre-determined roles in a deterministic universe.

Exactly.

Then again, it was all a fever dream Aric had while in a cell aboard a Spider Alien space ship...

[Ryan]

That's what I was asking in this thread, what had been established about the time travel rules? Time travel was certainly used a lot in post-Unity, so there had to be some rules, even if they were only seen in action and never explicitly explained

I'd have to re-read Timewalker and the other time travel stories to look at it closer. What Magnus said is what I remember, initially the course of events was unchangeable, any action that tried to change an event in the past would only inadvertently cause that event to happen anyway. Which means there's no alternate timelines being created or negated through time travel.

This is later contradicted in Harb wars and the Visitor. And when Jack jumps off the building, he's testing that theory as well. There could be more examples, but I haven't read those in a long time

The point would be, though, that even though the Harbinger Wars trilogy might make it appear as if history was changed, the truth is that it really wasn't, in that it did change but then turned back to how it was supposed to be. Both events were always supposed to happen.

That begs the question, if nothing can be changed or altered, why even time travel at all?

To see what was, what is, and what will be.

Ivar time traveled to reunite with Nefertiti.

That's cool. It does seem like in some of the stories, the characters at least think they have the ability to change events. I guess it boils down to the classic philosophical argument of determinism vs. free will. The Valiant characters may think they're acting out of free will, but they're actually just fulfilling their pre-determined roles in a deterministic universe.

Exactly.

Then again, it was all a fever dream Aric had while in a cell aboard a Spider Alien space ship...

I was just thinking about that. 'It was all a dream' endings are usually cop-outs, but in this case it was more of a mind-f#ck. It opens up some interesting possibilities but I don't think it should negate anything that happened.

[ManofTheAtom]

The point would be, though, that even though the Harbinger Wars trilogy might make it appear as if history was changed, the truth is that it really wasn't, in that it did change but then turned back to how it was supposed to be. Both events were always supposed to happen.

That begs the question, if nothing can be changed or altered, why even time travel at all?

To see what was, what is, and what will be.

Ivar time traveled to reunite with Nefertiti.

That's cool. It does seem like in some of the stories, the characters at least think they have the ability to change events. I guess it boils down to the classic philosophical argument of determinism vs. free will. The Valiant characters may think they're acting out of free will, but they're actually just fulfilling their pre-determined roles in a deterministic universe.

Exactly.

Then again, it was all a fever dream Aric had while in a cell aboard a Spider Alien space ship...

I was just thinking about that. 'It was all a dream' endings are usually cop-outs, but in this case it was more of a mind-f#ck. It opens up some interesting possibilities but I don't think it should negate anything that happened.

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

[Ryan]

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Yeah there was so much weird stuff going on in X-O the last few years, I feel like the dream ending was just part of his story and something that needs to be resolved within X-O. It shouldn't have an effect on the rest of VH1. I'd have to re-read post-BQ X-O and Heavy Metal to get a grasp on it.

[ManofTheAtom]

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Yeah there was so much weird stuff going on in X-O the last few years, I feel like the dream ending was just part of his story and something that needs to be resolved within X-O. It shouldn't have an effect on the rest of VH1. I'd have to re-read post-BQ X-O and Heavy Metal to get a grasp on it.

Indeed.

[Ryan]

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Yeah there was so much weird stuff going on in X-O the last few years, I feel like the dream ending was just part of his story and something that needs to be resolved within X-O. It shouldn't have an effect on the rest of VH1. I'd have to re-read post-BQ X-O and Heavy Metal to get a grasp on it.

Indeed.

I just re-read X-O 66, lol I forgot they killed Ax. Which directly contradicts Rai 0. After Birthquake there's so many things that either don't fit or directly contradict everything that came before. It would be a big challenge to integrate all of it and make sense out of it.

[ManofTheAtom]

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Yeah there was so much weird stuff going on in X-O the last few years, I feel like the dream ending was just part of his story and something that needs to be resolved within X-O. It shouldn't have an effect on the rest of VH1. I'd have to re-read post-BQ X-O and Heavy Metal to get a grasp on it.

Indeed.

I just re-read X-O 66, lol I forgot they killed Ax. Which directly contradicts Rai 0. After Birthquake there's so many things that either don't fit or directly contradict everything that came before. It would be a big challenge to integrate all of it and make sense out of it.

Fixing it is easy, just limit those experiences to X-O. Cresendo had once before put him inside a virtual reality machine. All that happened in those final issues can be a repeat of that.

[Ryan]

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Yeah there was so much weird stuff going on in X-O the last few years, I feel like the dream ending was just part of his story and something that needs to be resolved within X-O. It shouldn't have an effect on the rest of VH1. I'd have to re-read post-BQ X-O and Heavy Metal to get a grasp on it.

Indeed.

I just re-read X-O 66, lol I forgot they killed Ax. Which directly contradicts Rai 0. After Birthquake there's so many things that either don't fit or directly contradict everything that came before. It would be a big challenge to integrate all of it and make sense out of it.

Fixing it is easy, just limit those experiences to X-O. Cresendo had once before put him inside a virtual reality machine. All that happened in those final issues can be a repeat of that.

What issue was that? So your theory would be everything after that in X-O would be a simulation, and not part of Vh1 canon?