Time travel rules in Valiant?

[ManofTheAtom]

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Yeah there was so much weird stuff going on in X-O the last few years, I feel like the dream ending was just part of his story and something that needs to be resolved within X-O. It shouldn't have an effect on the rest of VH1. I'd have to re-read post-BQ X-O and Heavy Metal to get a grasp on it.

Indeed.

I just re-read X-O 66, lol I forgot they killed Ax. Which directly contradicts Rai 0. After Birthquake there's so many things that either don't fit or directly contradict everything that came before. It would be a big challenge to integrate all of it and make sense out of it.

Fixing it is easy, just limit those experiences to X-O. Cresendo had once before put him inside a virtual reality machine. All that happened in those final issues can be a repeat of that.

What issue was that? So your theory would be everything after that in X-O would be a simulation, and not part of Vh1 canon?

The start of Birthquake. And, yeah, everything that happened in X-O Manowar's final issues that contradicts canon can be dismissed as being part of Crescendo's simulation.

[Chiclo]

That begs the question, if nothing can be changed or altered, why even time travel at all?

To see what was, what is, and what will be.

Ivar time traveled to reunite with Nefertiti.

That's cool. It does seem like in some of the stories, the characters at least think they have the ability to change events. I guess it boils down to the classic philosophical argument of determinism vs. free will. The Valiant characters may think they're acting out of free will, but they're actually just fulfilling their pre-determined roles in a deterministic universe.

Exactly.

Then again, it was all a fever dream Aric had while in a cell aboard a Spider Alien space ship...

I was just thinking about that. 'It was all a dream' endings are usually cop-outs, but in this case it was more of a mind-f#ck. It opens up some interesting possibilities but I don't think it should negate anything that happened.

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Evidence that Valiant was not sustainable long-term?

[ManofTheAtom]

To see what was, what is, and what will be.

Ivar time traveled to reunite with Nefertiti.

That's cool. It does seem like in some of the stories, the characters at least think they have the ability to change events. I guess it boils down to the classic philosophical argument of determinism vs. free will. The Valiant characters may think they're acting out of free will, but they're actually just fulfilling their pre-determined roles in a deterministic universe.

Exactly.

Then again, it was all a fever dream Aric had while in a cell aboard a Spider Alien space ship...

I was just thinking about that. 'It was all a dream' endings are usually cop-outs, but in this case it was more of a mind-f#ck. It opens up some interesting possibilities but I don't think it should negate anything that happened.

Far more than Jack jumping off the building, those final issues of X-O really screwed up VALIANT canon. It's definitely something that should be revisited and fixed. The dream ending is not the real ending.

Much like the Harbinger Wars trilogy, it's something that happened which merely needs to be resolved to put things right.

Evidence that Valiant was not sustainable long-term?

Nah. Remember, that arc was just Layton's way to end VALIANT to set things up for Nicieza.

[Ryan]

The start of Birthquake. And, yeah, everything that happened in X-O Manowar's final issues that contradicts canon can be dismissed as being part of Crescendo's simulation.

So that includes Master Darque's death

[Ryan]

Evidence that Valiant was not sustainable long-term?

I would say more like evidence of poor management and poor writing. There's no reason that a group of comic books can't be kept in a reasonable continuity over many years. No one expects it to be perfect.

But Birthquake was a total cash-grab that put splashy visuals and shock value ahead of any concerns over story or long-term viability. If anything, it proves that the 90's Image model (Big, splashy art with thin stories) is not a sustainable model for developing long-term comic readers. And yet people keep trying it.

[ManofTheAtom]

The start of Birthquake. And, yeah, everything that happened in X-O Manowar's final issues that contradicts canon can be dismissed as being part of Crescendo's simulation.

So that includes Master Darque's death

Absolutely.

At a glance, the whole thing looks like a video game, with Aric fighting a different boss on each new level.

[Ryan]

The start of Birthquake. And, yeah, everything that happened in X-O Manowar's final issues that contradicts canon can be dismissed as being part of Crescendo's simulation.

So that includes Master Darque's death

Absolutely.

At a glance, the whole thing looks like a video game, with Aric fighting a different boss on each new level.

Screenshot 2023-11-12 224201.png

From X-O 46. It would make sense that everything from X-O 44-68 takes place in Crescendo's VR machine. Definitely all feels like a video game, good call.

[ManofTheAtom]

The start of Birthquake. And, yeah, everything that happened in X-O Manowar's final issues that contradicts canon can be dismissed as being part of Crescendo's simulation.

So that includes Master Darque's death

Absolutely.

At a glance, the whole thing looks like a video game, with Aric fighting a different boss on each new level.

Screenshot 2023-11-12 224201.png

From X-O 46. It would make sense that everything from X-O 44-68 takes place in Crescendo's VR machine. Definitely all feels like a video game, good call.

Thanks. It would be the easiest explanation.

[Ryan]

The start of Birthquake. And, yeah, everything that happened in X-O Manowar's final issues that contradicts canon can be dismissed as being part of Crescendo's simulation.

So that includes Master Darque's death

Absolutely.

At a glance, the whole thing looks like a video game, with Aric fighting a different boss on each new level.

Screenshot 2023-11-12 224201.png

From X-O 46. It would make sense that everything from X-O 44-68 takes place in Crescendo's VR machine. Definitely all feels like a video game, good call.

Thanks. It would be the easiest explanation.

Yeah I think it fits. It makes more sense since it's not just a fancy VR machine, Crescendo also has mental illusionist powers in some ways similar to Loki.

[ManofTheAtom]

The start of Birthquake. And, yeah, everything that happened in X-O Manowar's final issues that contradicts canon can be dismissed as being part of Crescendo's simulation.

So that includes Master Darque's death

Absolutely.

At a glance, the whole thing looks like a video game, with Aric fighting a different boss on each new level.

Screenshot 2023-11-12 224201.png

From X-O 46. It would make sense that everything from X-O 44-68 takes place in Crescendo's VR machine. Definitely all feels like a video game, good call.

Thanks. It would be the easiest explanation.

Yeah I think it fits. It makes more sense since it's not just a fancy VR machine, Crescendo also has mental illusionist powers in some ways similar to Loki.

We can even dismiss the crossover with Iron Man as part of the same scam since it had already previously been established that DC and Marvel heroes are fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

[Ryan]

So that includes Master Darque's death

Absolutely.

At a glance, the whole thing looks like a video game, with Aric fighting a different boss on each new level.

Screenshot 2023-11-12 224201.png

From X-O 46. It would make sense that everything from X-O 44-68 takes place in Crescendo's VR machine. Definitely all feels like a video game, good call.

Thanks. It would be the easiest explanation.

Yeah I think it fits. It makes more sense since it's not just a fancy VR machine, Crescendo also has mental illusionist powers in some ways similar to Loki.

We can even dismiss the crossover with Iron Man as part of the same scam since it had already previously been established that DC and Marvel heroes are fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

Ooo yeah, I haven't re-read that one yet but Crescendo is also involved, right? And the fact that it's an actual video game ties it all together

[ManofTheAtom]

Absolutely.

At a glance, the whole thing looks like a video game, with Aric fighting a different boss on each new level.

Screenshot 2023-11-12 224201.png

From X-O 46. It would make sense that everything from X-O 44-68 takes place in Crescendo's VR machine. Definitely all feels like a video game, good call.

Thanks. It would be the easiest explanation.

Yeah I think it fits. It makes more sense since it's not just a fancy VR machine, Crescendo also has mental illusionist powers in some ways similar to Loki.

We can even dismiss the crossover with Iron Man as part of the same scam since it had already previously been established that DC and Marvel heroes are fictional in the VALIANT Universe.

Ooo yeah, I haven't re-read that one yet but Crescendo is also involved, right? And the fact that it's an actual video game ties it all together

She is in it, yeah.

The crazier things get at VALIANT, particularly with X-O, the easier it is to dismiss them as part of Crecesndo messing with Aric.

[Ryan]

She is in it, yeah.

The crazier things get at VALIANT, particularly with X-O, the easier it is to dismiss them as part of Crecesndo messing with Aric.

Definitely. As you said the Marvel characters are established as fictional within the Valiant universe, so the whole thing could be an elaborate hoax/fantasy created by Crescendo.

[ManofTheAtom]

She is in it, yeah.

The crazier things get at VALIANT, particularly with X-O, the easier it is to dismiss them as part of Crecesndo messing with Aric.

Definitely. As you said the Marvel characters are established as fictional within the Valiant universe, so the whole thing could be an elaborate hoax/fantasy created by Crescendo.

Indeed. And that's all the resolution VH 2 needs.

[Ryan]

Indeed. And that's all the resolution VH 2 needs.

I know you don't agree, but I see VH2, 3, VEI, etc. as alternate universes within a Valiant multiverse. As established in Solar that VH1 is an alternate universe to Phil's original world (VH0, in theory an exact copy of our universe), and established in Unity 2K that the Valiant multiverse is a real thing.

I'm not a fan of mulitverses either, especially now with the current multiverse trend in pop culture. But they can be done in a more controlled way that doesn't lead to the abuses we see in Marvel, DC, etc. It's the only way that all the iterations of the Valiant characters can co-exist in a way that doesn't minimize or try to negate certain versions.

[ManofTheAtom]

Indeed. And that's all the resolution VH 2 needs.

I know you don't agree, but I see VH2, 3, VEI, etc. as alternate universes within a Valiant multiverse. As established in Solar that VH1 is an alternate universe to Phil's original world (VH0, in theory an exact copy of our universe), and established in Unity 2K that the Valiant multiverse is a real thing.

I'm not a fan of mulitverses either, especially now with the current multiverse trend in pop culture. But they can be done in a more controlled way that doesn't lead to the abuses we see in Marvel, DC, etc. It's the only way that all the iterations of the Valiant characters can co-exist in a way that doesn't minimize or try to negate certain versions.

Unity 2000 can be dismissed, though.

Phil didn't travel to another universe, he traveled back in time and prevented the destruction of the world.

[Ryan]

Indeed. And that's all the resolution VH 2 needs.

I know you don't agree, but I see VH2, 3, VEI, etc. as alternate universes within a Valiant multiverse. As established in Solar that VH1 is an alternate universe to Phil's original world (VH0, in theory an exact copy of our universe), and established in Unity 2K that the Valiant multiverse is a real thing.

I'm not a fan of mulitverses either, especially now with the current multiverse trend in pop culture. But they can be done in a more controlled way that doesn't lead to the abuses we see in Marvel, DC, etc. It's the only way that all the iterations of the Valiant characters can co-exist in a way that doesn't minimize or try to negate certain versions.

Unity 2000 can be dismissed, though.

Phil didn't travel to another universe, he traveled back in time and prevented the destruction of the world.

That's one way to interpret it. All the Valiant comics exist, whatever way one wants to interpret them is up to them.

I choose to look at it like a multiverse, not because I like multiverses, but because that way all the different iterations can exist and be 'valid'. In my brain at least.

And there's plenty of instances within the comics themselves that support my interpretation. Not that my way is the only way to interpret those things. It's just the way that it makes sense to me.

There's plenty of things I don't like about Unity 2000, but I still enjoy it in many ways too.

If Phil just traveled back in time and is still in the 'normal' world, how do things like the Immortal brothers and Master Darque exist in that world when they didn't before?

[ManofTheAtom]

Indeed. And that's all the resolution VH 2 needs.

I know you don't agree, but I see VH2, 3, VEI, etc. as alternate universes within a Valiant multiverse. As established in Solar that VH1 is an alternate universe to Phil's original world (VH0, in theory an exact copy of our universe), and established in Unity 2K that the Valiant multiverse is a real thing.

I'm not a fan of mulitverses either, especially now with the current multiverse trend in pop culture. But they can be done in a more controlled way that doesn't lead to the abuses we see in Marvel, DC, etc. It's the only way that all the iterations of the Valiant characters can co-exist in a way that doesn't minimize or try to negate certain versions.

Unity 2000 can be dismissed, though.

Phil didn't travel to another universe, he traveled back in time and prevented the destruction of the world.

That's one way to interpret it. All the Valiant comics exist, whatever way one wants to interpret them is up to them.

I choose to look at it like a multiverse, not because I like multiverses, but because that way all the different iterations can exist and be 'valid'. In my brain at least.

And there's plenty of instances within the comics themselves that support my interpretation. Not that my way is the only way to interpret those things. It's just the way that it makes sense to me.

There's plenty of things I don't like about Unity 2000, but I still enjoy it in many ways too.

If Phil just traveled back in time and is still in the 'normal' world, how do things like the Immortal brothers and Master Darque exist in that world when they didn't before?

He was responsible for creating them. He rewrote the nature of the universe. It's part of the reason why Erica hates him, and what she believes she can fix with her wish machine in Unity.

They both came from the real world, and when they returned to it after the black hole destroyed it it was no longer the same. Now it had aliens and psiots, and immortals, and such.

[Ryan]

He was responsible for creating them. He rewrote the nature of the universe. It's part of the reason why Erica hates him, and what she believes she can fix with her wish machine in Unity.

They both came from the real world, and when they returned to it after the black hole destroyed it it was no longer the same. Now it had aliens and psiots, and immortals, and such.

Functionally 'rewriting the nature of the universe' and 'creating an alternate reality' is the same thing. I guess the difference is whether you think the previous universe/reality existed separately and was destroyed, or if you think this new reality has overwritten the previous one. Mostly a matter of semantics and interpretation IMO.

[ManofTheAtom]

He was responsible for creating them. He rewrote the nature of the universe. It's part of the reason why Erica hates him, and what she believes she can fix with her wish machine in Unity.

They both came from the real world, and when they returned to it after the black hole destroyed it it was no longer the same. Now it had aliens and psiots, and immortals, and such.

Functionally 'rewriting the nature of the universe' and 'creating an alternate reality' is the same thing. I guess the difference is whether you think the previous universe/reality existed separately and was destroyed, or if you think this new reality has overwritten the previous one. Mostly a matter of semantics and interpretation IMO.

Well, it's not about what we think but rather what was established in the comics, which is that he went back in time and prevented the destruction of the world. There is no acknowledgement or belief on his or anyone else's part that he traveled from one universe to another.

[Ryan]

He was responsible for creating them. He rewrote the nature of the universe. It's part of the reason why Erica hates him, and what she believes she can fix with her wish machine in Unity.

They both came from the real world, and when they returned to it after the black hole destroyed it it was no longer the same. Now it had aliens and psiots, and immortals, and such.

Functionally 'rewriting the nature of the universe' and 'creating an alternate reality' is the same thing. I guess the difference is whether you think the previous universe/reality existed separately and was destroyed, or if you think this new reality has overwritten the previous one. Mostly a matter of semantics and interpretation IMO.

Well, it's not about what we think but rather what was established in the comics, which is that he went back in time and prevented the destruction of the world. There is no acknowledgement or belief on his or anyone else's part that he traveled from one universe to another.

Ok, but what's in the comics is open to interpretation. The fact is that the Valiant universe is not our universe, nor is it the same universe as the one Phil started in. The world Phil started in - Gold Key comics are fictional, no immortals, no aliens, etc. Phil destroys that world with a black hole and time travels or travels to a different universe, where there's an Earth that's similar to his own but not the same, it has immortals, aliens, super powered beings, and Gold Key characters really exist, they're not fiction.

Whether you call it time travel that 'rewrote the nature of the universe' or time travel that created an alternate universe, it's a matter of semantics. An alternate world was created. It's never explicitly stated in the comics exactly what he did (that I remember), so that leaves room for interpretation as to what exactly happened.

[ManofTheAtom]

He was responsible for creating them. He rewrote the nature of the universe. It's part of the reason why Erica hates him, and what she believes she can fix with her wish machine in Unity.

They both came from the real world, and when they returned to it after the black hole destroyed it it was no longer the same. Now it had aliens and psiots, and immortals, and such.

Functionally 'rewriting the nature of the universe' and 'creating an alternate reality' is the same thing. I guess the difference is whether you think the previous universe/reality existed separately and was destroyed, or if you think this new reality has overwritten the previous one. Mostly a matter of semantics and interpretation IMO.

Well, it's not about what we think but rather what was established in the comics, which is that he went back in time and prevented the destruction of the world. There is no acknowledgement or belief on his or anyone else's part that he traveled from one universe to another.

Ok, but what's in the comics is open to interpretation. The fact is that the Valiant universe is not our universe, nor is it the same universe as the one Phil started in. The world Phil started in - Gold Key comics are fictional, no immortals, no aliens, etc. Phil destroys that world with a black hole and time travels or travels to a different universe, where there's an Earth that's similar to his own but not the same, it has immortals, aliens, super powered beings, and Gold Key characters really exist, they're not fiction.

Whether you call it time travel that 'rewrote the nature of the universe' or time travel that created an alternate universe, it's a matter of semantics. An alternate world was created. It's never explicitly stated in the comics exactly what he did (that I remember), so that leaves room for interpretation as to what exactly happened.

But it's not that I call it time travel, it's that the comics did. Phil messing up with time was at the crux of his conflict with Mothergod. She believed he screwed up time. He was directly responsible for creating the immortals, aliens, and such.

[Ryan]

But it's not that I call it time travel, it's that the comics did. Phil messing up with time was at the crux of his conflict with Mothergod. She believed he screwed up time. He was directly responsible for creating the immortals, aliens, and such.

Ok, so you're saying there's no alternate world created, right? So are there Solar, Magnus, and Turok comics in the VH1 universe that are also canon events that happen in the universe? How do you explain the existence of VH2, VH3, Unity 2000 and VEI?

[ManofTheAtom]

But it's not that I call it time travel, it's that the comics did. Phil messing up with time was at the crux of his conflict with Mothergod. She believed he screwed up time. He was directly responsible for creating the immortals, aliens, and such.

Ok, so you're saying there's no alternate world created, right? So are there Solar, Magnus, and Turok comics in the VH1 universe that are also canon events that happen in the universe? How do you explain the existence of VH2, VH3, Unity 2000 and VEI?

VH 2 came into existence as a result of Aric using the Cosmic Cube from Marvel comics to give himself the X-O Manowar armor in the past.

Since Iron Man and other such characters had already been established as being fictional within the narrative of the VALIANT Universe, such a crossover could not have happened outside the confines of Crescendo's virtual reality machine. We already established this earlier, heh.

Since everything that followed came as a result of that, it can all be dismissed similarly.

And, yeah, there was no alternate world created. When Phil went back in time, he changed the very nature of the universe. He was a schizophrenic comic book fanboy who created a machine that gave him the powers of his favorite superhero, which he then used to change the fundamental aspects of the universe.

[ManofTheAtom]

There're the rules by which the VALIANT Universe operated and then there are the rules Nicieza brought him with from Marvel.

Everything prior to X-O Manowar/Iron Man adhered to the former, while everything after adhered to the latter.