Serious question...what did Heather Antos actually *do*?

[Ryan]

I've been trying to avoid posting here, but I can't believe people saying we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories.

edit- reflecting our world doesn't make for bad stories, but directly referencing current events and having the characters give their opinions about real world politics does.

Try not to twist what I'm saying to fit your argument. No one has ever said that "we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories." I think the opposite, great fictional stories set in the present day SHOULD reflect the real world. The discussion is about whether super hero comics should deal directly with current events and the characters should discuss their opinions about current political issues.

Real life inspiring fiction is basically the sales pitch for Law and Order, the second longest running live action scripted primetime series and has spun off 6 other series, including the longest running live action scripted primetime series.

Again, no one is saying that real life shouldn't inspire fiction. That's exactly what it should do. Inspire, not be directly referenced.

[juleskywalker]

I've been trying to avoid posting here, but I can't believe people saying we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories.

edit- reflecting our world doesn't make for bad stories, but directly referencing current events and having the characters give their opinions about real world politics does.

Try not to twist what I'm saying to fit your argument. No one has ever said that "we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories." I think the opposite, great fictional stories set in the present day SHOULD reflect the real world. The discussion is about whether super hero comics should deal directly with current events and the characters should discuss their opinions about current political issues.

Real life inspiring fiction is basically the sales pitch for Law and Order, the second longest running live action scripted primetime series and has spun off 6 other series, including the longest running live action scripted primetime series.

Again, no one is saying that real life shouldn't inspire fiction. That's exactly what it should do. Inspire, not be directly referenced.

I'm not trying to twist anything for an argument. I'm just trying to say that blanket statements that real world events make for bad stories is an over generalization. Great art can come from real events. So can terrible art. I'm sure for every successful work, there were dozens that were terrible and forgotten. What matters is if it's executed well.

And why wouldn't fictional characters have opinions about political issues of their world (aside from they are fictional characters). Look how much discussion is coming from that arena. Page after page filled with people's political opinion or politically tinted comments (not just here, but the Internet as a whole). If someone wants comics to be pure escapism, then read books that do that. I'm not judging if people read what they want. I read plenty of junk (and to clarify, I'm not calling escapism stories junk, I'm just saying who am I to judge what people enjoy when my own choices are all over the place). But if a book or even a company has decided to embrace the "world outside your window" style, then I wouldn't be surprised to see fictional characters piercing the veil between their world and ours.

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[ManofTheAtom]

I've been trying to avoid posting here, but I can't believe people saying we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories.
Captain America 1 should be the go to reference for real world events happening at real time. The cover of Captain America punching Hitler hit stands December 20th, 1940. This was nearly a year BEFORE America declared war on Germany on December 11th, 1941. Ditko had Spider-Man dealing with campus protestors in the 60s. Comics have expressed opinions on events for 80+ years.
Real life inspiring fiction is basically the sales pitch for Law and Order, the second longest running live action scripted primetime series and has spun off 6 other series, including the longest running live action scripted primetime series.
I don't agree with the premise that every alternate timeline will be radically different in every aspect. Even Goatee Kirk was still Captain of his Enterprise.
The choice to make a fictional world reflect the world outside the window is a stylistic choice. It doesn't mean they have to deal with every little event, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see the big ones have an impact. It will always come down to execution. But that can probably be said of all aspects of art.

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Indeed.

[ManofTheAtom]

You're free to have your opinion, I just have a different one.

I would have no interest in seeing the 60's comics addressing real world events as they're happening, just like I would have no interest in what Peter Parker's opinion on the Monica Lewinsky scandal was in 97, just like I would have no interest in seeing Faith fight in the Ukraine war now. That's just not how I think good sci-fi/fantasy works, for me at least. Different strokes I guess.

I mean, Stan Lee and Marvel managed to superbly integrate their fictional characters and the real world, from using the "Red Menace" and race to the moon in the Fantastic Four, to using Vietnam in Iron Man, and it worked out great for them.

We can't really conclude that VALIANT doing the same with events from the '90s, like those you've mentioned and those you haven't, wouldn't have been as successful.

In the end, I think it's been proven that there is a lot more value in comic book fiction reflecting the world outside our window than in being pure escapism.

For instance, I'd much rather read about the Fantastic Four racing into space to beat the Russians than reading about Superbaby having a tantrum because he doesn't think that the Kent love him that much.

[Ryan]

I'm not trying to twist anything for an argument. I'm just trying to say that blanket statements that real world events make for bad stories is an over generalization.

Fair enough. But try to use direct quotes if you're going to argue against it. I would never say "real world events make for bad stories." That's much too broad. All I'm saying is that IMO superhero comics that use current events and current politics in their stories are usually corny and not good stories.

And why wouldn't fictional characters have opinions about political issues of their world

No one is saying they shouldn't.

[Ryan]

You're free to have your opinion, I just have a different one.

I would have no interest in seeing the 60's comics addressing real world events as they're happening, just like I would have no interest in what Peter Parker's opinion on the Monica Lewinsky scandal was in 97, just like I would have no interest in seeing Faith fight in the Ukraine war now. That's just not how I think good sci-fi/fantasy works, for me at least. Different strokes I guess.

I mean, Stan Lee and Marvel managed to superbly integrate their fictional characters and the real world, from using the "Red Menace" and race to the moon in the Fantastic Four, to using Vietnam in Iron Man, and it worked out great for them.

We can't really conclude that VALIANT doing the same with events from the '90s, like those you've mentioned and those you haven't, wouldn't have been as successful.

In the end, I think it's been proven that there is a lot more value in comic book fiction reflecting the world outside our window than in being pure escapism.

For instance, I'd much rather read about the Fantastic Four racing into space to beat the Russians than reading about Superbaby having a tantrum because he doesn't think that the Kent love him that much.

Again, I would never argue that comic book fiction shouldn't reflect the real world.

Here's the original quote, since you guys just want argue against things I didn't say.

With rare exceptions, good fiction shouldn't deal with current events directly. Good fiction should be timeless, classic (always relevant).

With what you're suggesting, in 1991 the Harbinger kids should have gone to LA and dealt with the Rodney King riots. Even if you agree with their message, it would still make the story corny and instantly dated.

Key words are "Good fiction shouldn't deal with current events directly". Nowhere do I say fiction shouldn't reflect the real world, that's ridiculous.

[ManofTheAtom]

You're free to have your opinion, I just have a different one.

I would have no interest in seeing the 60's comics addressing real world events as they're happening, just like I would have no interest in what Peter Parker's opinion on the Monica Lewinsky scandal was in 97, just like I would have no interest in seeing Faith fight in the Ukraine war now. That's just not how I think good sci-fi/fantasy works, for me at least. Different strokes I guess.

I mean, Stan Lee and Marvel managed to superbly integrate their fictional characters and the real world, from using the "Red Menace" and race to the moon in the Fantastic Four, to using Vietnam in Iron Man, and it worked out great for them.

We can't really conclude that VALIANT doing the same with events from the '90s, like those you've mentioned and those you haven't, wouldn't have been as successful.

In the end, I think it's been proven that there is a lot more value in comic book fiction reflecting the world outside our window than in being pure escapism.

For instance, I'd much rather read about the Fantastic Four racing into space to beat the Russians than reading about Superbaby having a tantrum because he doesn't think that the Kent love him that much.

Again, I would never argue that comic book fiction shouldn't reflect the real world.

Here's the original quote, since you guys just want argue against things I didn't say.

With rare exceptions, good fiction shouldn't deal with current events directly. Good fiction should be timeless, classic (always relevant).

With what you're suggesting, in 1991 the Harbinger kids should have gone to LA and dealt with the Rodney King riots. Even if you agree with their message, it would still make the story corny and instantly dated.

Key words are "Shouldn't deal with current events directly. Nowhere do I say fiction shouldn't reflect the real world, that's ridiculous.

I'm pointing out instances in which they successfully dealt with real-world events directly as they happened, though.

Can you think of any that weren't as successful as Iron Man in Vietnam or the F4 racing the Russians to the Moon or Captain America in World War II, etc?

[ManofTheAtom]

Like, for instance, to address one of your examples, Monica Lewinsky.

In Harbinger #18, Sting and Kris are stunted to see Toyo Harada present at the first inauguration of Bill Cliton in 1993.

Cliton and Lewinsky did not become involved until two years later, in 1995.

There is a scenario, within the fictional narrative of the VALIANT Universe, in which Harada manipulated events to get Cliton elected as part of his grand plan for the betterment of Harbinger kin as he viewed it through his villainous skewed perspective.

Within that same fictional narrative, the scenario can include Sting, Kris, and the Harbinger resistance using their own powers to derail the Cliton administration by creating what became the Cliton-Lewinsky scandal, all with the goal in mind of disrupting whatever Harada's plan is.

That would have been one way in which the fictional world and real world could have intersected. Cliton and Lewinsky, or at the very least their fictional VALIANT Universe representations, would have been pawns in the war between these two armies of Harbingers.

[Ryan]

Like, for instance, to address one of your examples, Monica Lewinsky.

In Harbinger #18, Sting and Kris are stunted to see Toyo Harada present at the first inauguration of Bill Cliton in 1993.

Cliton and Lewinsky did not become involved until two years later, in 1995.

There is a scenario, within the fictional narrative of the VALIANT Universe, in which Harada manipulated events to get Cliton elected as part of his grand plan for the betterment of Harbinger kin as he viewed it through his villainous skewed perspective.

Within that same fictional narrative, the scenario can include Sting, Kris, and the Harbinger resistance using their own powers to derail the Cliton administration by creating what became the Cliton-Lewinsky scandal, all with the goal in mind of disrupting whatever Harada's plan is.

That would have been one way in which the fictional world and real world could have intersected. Cliton and Lewinsky, or at the very least their fictional VALIANT Universe representations, would have been pawns in the war between these two armies of Harbingers.

Ok, sure. So IMO it makes for better fiction if those events and people were referenced indirectly. Have that storyline, but use a fictional president. That might just be my preference, but that's how I feel.

For example, GI Joe. It's all based on and inspired by real world events, but since it adds in elements of sci-fi and fantasy, it doesn't usually use real countries, real political leaders, or real world events directly.

So to circle this discussion back to the beginning. I think that instead of Bloodshot vs. Proud Boys and Faith vs. anti-BLM, in a sci-fi universe like Valiant I would like it better if there were fictional groups/characters/leaders that filled those type of roles. Indirect representation vs. direct.

[Oxmyx]

...I can't believe people saying we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories.

...Even Goatee Kirk was still Captain of his Enterprise....

The choice to make a fictional...art.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Excuse me, but to bring the conversation back to what really matters, Mirror Kirk didn't have any facial hair. That was Mirror Spock with the goatee.

[ManofTheAtom]

Like, for instance, to address one of your examples, Monica Lewinsky.

In Harbinger #18, Sting and Kris are stunted to see Toyo Harada present at the first inauguration of Bill Cliton in 1993.

Cliton and Lewinsky did not become involved until two years later, in 1995.

There is a scenario, within the fictional narrative of the VALIANT Universe, in which Harada manipulated events to get Cliton elected as part of his grand plan for the betterment of Harbinger kin as he viewed it through his villainous skewed perspective.

Within that same fictional narrative, the scenario can include Sting, Kris, and the Harbinger resistance using their own powers to derail the Cliton administration by creating what became the Cliton-Lewinsky scandal, all with the goal in mind of disrupting whatever Harada's plan is.

That would have been one way in which the fictional world and real world could have intersected. Cliton and Lewinsky, or at the very least their fictional VALIANT Universe representations, would have been pawns in the war between these two armies of Harbingers.

Ok, sure. So IMO it makes for better fiction if those events and people were referenced indirectly. Have that storyline, but use a fictional president. That might just be my preference, but that's how I feel.

For example, GI Joe. It's all based on and inspired by the real world events, but since it adds in elements of sci-fi and fantasy, it doesn't usually use real countries, real political leaders, or real world events directly.

So to circle this discussion back to the beginning. I think that instead of Bloodshot vs. Proud Boys and Faith vs. anti-BLM, in a sci-fi universe like Valiant I would like it better if there were fictional groups/characters/leaders that filled those type of roles. Indirect representation vs. direct.

That might work for GI Joe, and even DC, Image, Ultraverse, and the sort. But because part of VALIANT's identity from its inception was the concept that it takes place "in the world outside our window", I don't think it should be an option.

[ManofTheAtom]

...I can't believe people saying we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories.

...Even Goatee Kirk was still Captain of his Enterprise....

The choice to make a fictional...art.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Excuse me, but to bring the conversation back to what really matters, Mirror Kirk didn't have any facial hair. That was Mirror Spock with the goatee.

[Ryan]

...I can't believe people saying we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories.

...Even Goatee Kirk was still Captain of his Enterprise....

The choice to make a fictional...art.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Excuse me, but to bring the conversation back to what really matters, Mirror Kirk didn't have any facial hair. That was Mirror Spock with the goatee.

Got him

[Ryan]

Like, for instance, to address one of your examples, Monica Lewinsky.

In Harbinger #18, Sting and Kris are stunted to see Toyo Harada present at the first inauguration of Bill Cliton in 1993.

Cliton and Lewinsky did not become involved until two years later, in 1995.

There is a scenario, within the fictional narrative of the VALIANT Universe, in which Harada manipulated events to get Cliton elected as part of his grand plan for the betterment of Harbinger kin as he viewed it through his villainous skewed perspective.

Within that same fictional narrative, the scenario can include Sting, Kris, and the Harbinger resistance using their own powers to derail the Cliton administration by creating what became the Cliton-Lewinsky scandal, all with the goal in mind of disrupting whatever Harada's plan is.

That would have been one way in which the fictional world and real world could have intersected. Cliton and Lewinsky, or at the very least their fictional VALIANT Universe representations, would have been pawns in the war between these two armies of Harbingers.

Ok, sure. So IMO it makes for better fiction if those events and people were referenced indirectly. Have that storyline, but use a fictional president. That might just be my preference, but that's how I feel.

For example, GI Joe. It's all based on and inspired by the real world events, but since it adds in elements of sci-fi and fantasy, it doesn't usually use real countries, real political leaders, or real world events directly.

So to circle this discussion back to the beginning. I think that instead of Bloodshot vs. Proud Boys and Faith vs. anti-BLM, in a sci-fi universe like Valiant I would like it better if there were fictional groups/characters/leaders that filled those type of roles. Indirect representation vs. direct.

That might work for GI Joe, and even DC, Image, Ultraverse, and the sort. But because part of VALIANT's identity from its inception was the concept that it takes place "in the world outside our window", I don't think it should be an option.

Cool, I just have a different opinion. With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility that the world would then remain an exact copy of ours in every other respect as the years go on. We can agree to disagree on that.

[ManofTheAtom]

Cool, I just have a different opinion. With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility that the world would then remain an exact copy of ours in every other respect as the years go on. We can agree to disagree on that.

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

[Ryan]

Cool, I just have a different opinion. With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility that the world would then remain an exact copy of ours in every other respect as the years go on. We can agree to disagree on that.

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

That's all I'm saying. VH1 starts out as the world outside our window, an exact copy of our world. But then on Sept 27, 1990 everything changes with Solar. In my mind, as the years go on and more sci-fi elements get introduced the world would undoubtedly change and the political/economic landscape would change in ways that our world wouldn't.

So it would still be the world outside our window in the sense that the same rules of science would apply, but as the years went on it would look less and less like an exact copy of our world in the current year. Like how Antarctica got blown up in VH1 and Pittsburgh got blown up in the New Universe. World altering events that didn't happen here.

Anyway it's all just fiction, fun to theorize about.

[ManofTheAtom]

Cool, I just have a different opinion. With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility that the world would then remain an exact copy of ours in every other respect as the years go on. We can agree to disagree on that.

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

That's all I'm saying. VH1 starts out as the world outside our window, an exact copy of our world. But then on Sept 27, 1990 everything changes with Solar. In my mind, as the years go on and more sci-fi elements get introduced the world would undoubtedly change and the political/economic landscape would change in ways that our world wouldn't.

So it would still be the world outside our window in the sense that the same rules of science would apply, but as the years went on it would look less and less like an exact copy of our world in the current year. Like how Antarctica got blown up in VH1 and Pittsburgh got blown up in the New Universe. World altering events that didn't happen here.

Anyway it's all just fiction, fun to theorize about.

Yeah. It just wouldn't change to the point that dogs drive cars and goats are on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

[Ryan]

Cool, I just have a different opinion. With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility that the world would then remain an exact copy of ours in every other respect as the years go on. We can agree to disagree on that.

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

That's all I'm saying. VH1 starts out as the world outside our window, an exact copy of our world. But then on Sept 27, 1990 everything changes with Solar. In my mind, as the years go on and more sci-fi elements get introduced the world would undoubtedly change and the political/economic landscape would change in ways that our world wouldn't.

So it would still be the world outside our window in the sense that the same rules of science would apply, but as the years went on it would look less and less like an exact copy of our world in the current year. Like how Antarctica got blown up in VH1 and Pittsburgh got blown up in the New Universe. World altering events that didn't happen here.

Anyway it's all just fiction, fun to theorize about.

Yeah. It just wouldn't change to the point that dogs drive cars and goats are on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

100%

[Chiclo]

Cool, I just have a different opinion. With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility that the world would then remain an exact copy of ours in every other respect as the years go on. We can agree to disagree on that.

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

That's all I'm saying. VH1 starts out as the world outside our window, an exact copy of our world. But then on Sept 27, 1990 everything changes with Solar. In my mind, as the years go on and more sci-fi elements get introduced the world would undoubtedly change and the political/economic landscape would change in ways that our world wouldn't.

So it would still be the world outside our window in the sense that the same rules of science would apply, but as the years went on it would look less and less like an exact copy of our world in the current year. Like how Antarctica got blown up in VH1 and Pittsburgh got blown up in the New Universe. World altering events that didn't happen here.

Anyway it's all just fiction, fun to theorize about.

I mean, he did blow up that world outside our window and reset or possibly remade it.

That was the source or great bulk of the necromantic energy. The new world had more magic than the first one.

If it was a fusion reactor, why would it need anti-proton pumps? Were they fusing anti-matter?

[ManofTheAtom]

Cool, I just have a different opinion. With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility that the world would then remain an exact copy of ours in every other respect as the years go on. We can agree to disagree on that.

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

That's all I'm saying. VH1 starts out as the world outside our window, an exact copy of our world. But then on Sept 27, 1990 everything changes with Solar. In my mind, as the years go on and more sci-fi elements get introduced the world would undoubtedly change and the political/economic landscape would change in ways that our world wouldn't.

So it would still be the world outside our window in the sense that the same rules of science would apply, but as the years went on it would look less and less like an exact copy of our world in the current year. Like how Antarctica got blown up in VH1 and Pittsburgh got blown up in the New Universe. World altering events that didn't happen here.

Anyway it's all just fiction, fun to theorize about.

I mean, he did blow up that world outside our window and reset or possibly remade it.

That was the source or great bulk of the necromantic energy. The new world had more magic than the first one.

If it was a fusion reactor, why would it need anti-proton pumps? Were they fusing anti-matter?

A matter-anti-matter collision is what destroyed that world. Phil drew in all matter about him. His body acting like a small “black hole,” where matter was destroyed and time stopped absolutely.

http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180379

This conversation has been had before, lol.

http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewto ... ER#p351470

[Ryan]

I mean, he did blow up that world outside our window and reset or possibly remade it.

That was the source or great bulk of the necromantic energy. The new world had more magic than the first one.

Exactly. I'm still unclear if he remade the world, reset it, or somehow shifted to a parallel world.

The end of Solar 0 is him obviously destroying the world. The beginning of Solar 1 he's floating above the new (VH1) Earth, a bit disoriented. I can't remember if this was ever expanded upon or just left up to interpretation.

A matter-anti-matter collision is what destroyed that world. Phil drew in all matter about him. His body acting like a small “black hole,” where matter was destroyed and time stopped absolutely.

http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180379

This conversation has been had before, lol.

http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewto ... ER#p351470

Nice

[juleskywalker]

...I can't believe people saying we can't have the real world reflected in comics and still have good fictional stories.

...Even Goatee Kirk was still Captain of his Enterprise....

The choice to make a fictional...art.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Excuse me, but to bring the conversation back to what really matters, Mirror Kirk didn't have any facial hair. That was Mirror Spock with the goatee.

Well played, sir

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Oxmyx]

...With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility...

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

That's all I'm saying.

Anyway it's all just fiction, fun to theorize about.

Yeah. It just wouldn't change to the point that dogs drive cars and goats are on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Did you even READ Quantum and Woody?

[ManofTheAtom]

I mean, he did blow up that world outside our window and reset or possibly remade it.

That was the source or great bulk of the necromantic energy. The new world had more magic than the first one.

Exactly. I'm still unclear if he remade the world, reset it, or somehow shifted to a parallel world.

The end of Solar 0 is him obviously destroying the world. The beginning of Solar 1 he's floating above the new (VH1) Earth, a bit disoriented. I can't remember if this was ever expanded upon or just left up to interpretation.

A matter-anti-matter collision is what destroyed that world. Phil drew in all matter about him. His body acting like a small “black hole,” where matter was destroyed and time stopped absolutely.

http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180379

This conversation has been had before, lol.

http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewto ... ER#p351470

Nice

He went back in time to before he destroyed the world.

[ManofTheAtom]

...With all of the sci-fi elements already in Valiant, it stretches my credibility...

I would agree that the world would change. Rai #0 showed us that.

That's all I'm saying.

Anyway it's all just fiction, fun to theorize about.

Yeah. It just wouldn't change to the point that dogs drive cars and goats are on a first-name basis with the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Did you even READ Quantum and Woody?

Unfortunately,