Collectors vs Readers

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

[slack]

Once the marketing push from DMG/ALIEN starts touting a new group of Valiant universe titles coming out with expected release dates...
more speculators will start popping up.

[ManofTheAtom]

Once the marketing push from DMG/ALIEN starts touting a new group of Valiant universe titles coming out with expected release dates...
more speculators will start popping up.

Bummer.

[Chiclo]

They should try some gimmick covers! Chromium or, what, glow in the dark? First issue, collector’s editions! Have a little fun with it.

[leonmallett]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I hope so. Forced collectability and chasing of story material (not variant covers) was the end of me reading VEI.

That said, I recognise the value of variants to bolster sales income, just not adding exclusivity to story content.

[ManofTheAtom]

They should try some gimmick covers! Chromium or, what, glow in the dark? First issue, collector’s editions! Have a little fun with it.

Any "gimmicks" should be based on story.

For instance, the first issue of Michael Turner's Fathom had five variant covers that each contained different pages of art and story that told the same plot from different characters' perspectives.

If you're going to ask people to buy more than one copy of a comic, at least reward them by offering them more content.

One of the best things about VH 1 VALIANT was when they'd retell the same thing from different perspectives, such as in Unity.

Surely there is something there worth exploring.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I hope so. Forced collectability and chasing of story material (not variant covers) was the end of me reading VEI.

That said, I recognise the value of variants to bolster sales income, just not adding exclusivity to story content.

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

[syzhang28]

They should try some gimmick covers! Chromium or, what, glow in the dark? First issue, collector’s editions! Have a little fun with it.

For instance, the first issue of Michael Turner's Fathom had five variant covers that each contained different pages of art and story that told the same plot from different characters' perspectives.

That sounds truly awful. No room to choose to be into the variants or just read the story. You're forced to do both or none.

[ManofTheAtom]

They should try some gimmick covers! Chromium or, what, glow in the dark? First issue, collector’s editions! Have a little fun with it.

For instance, the first issue of Michael Turner's Fathom had five variant covers that each contained different pages of art and story that told the same plot from different characters' perspectives.

That sounds truly awful. No room to choose to be into the variants or just read the story. You're forced to do both or none.

I think Turner's mistake was charging people the same for every issue.

If the combined cost of all five covers with extra pages equaled the cost of one issue, the gimmick might have worked more.

[leonmallett]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I hope so. Forced collectability and chasing of story material (not variant covers) was the end of me reading VEI.

That said, I recognise the value of variants to bolster sales income, just not adding exclusivity to story content.

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

I could live with the GN approach.

[leonmallett]

They should try some gimmick covers! Chromium or, what, glow in the dark? First issue, collector’s editions! Have a little fun with it.

For instance, the first issue of Michael Turner's Fathom had five variant covers that each contained different pages of art and story that told the same plot from different characters' perspectives.

That sounds truly awful. No room to choose to be into the variants or just read the story. You're forced to do both or none.

Agreed.

Ugh, that sounds like the kind of *SQUEE* that Dinesh and co would consider, which drove me away from VEI. They created some great stories and some very fan-unfriendly gimmicks for non-US based readers.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I hope so. Forced collectability and chasing of story material (not variant covers) was the end of me reading VEI.

That said, I recognise the value of variants to bolster sales income, just not adding exclusivity to story content.

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

I could live with the GN approach.

I truly hope we don't see that.

[leonmallett]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I hope so. Forced collectability and chasing of story material (not variant covers) was the end of me reading VEI.

That said, I recognise the value of variants to bolster sales income, just not adding exclusivity to story content.

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

I could live with the GN approach.

I truly hope we don't see that.

I expect if Alien can do it they will quadruple-dip (print singles, digital singles, tpbs then larger page count HCs), but I’d be interested to see a publisher work to longer form publication in the first instance, and how that would shape the storytelling freed from the shackles of publishing to fit collected editions.

[ManofTheAtom]

Do you think we might be entering a VALIANT era in which the people buying the comics will be comprised entirely of readers that value them for the characters and the stories as opposed to collectors and/or speculators that value them for their resale value?

I hope so. Forced collectability and chasing of story material (not variant covers) was the end of me reading VEI.

That said, I recognise the value of variants to bolster sales income, just not adding exclusivity to story content.

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

I could live with the GN approach.

I truly hope we don't see that.

I expect if Alien can do it they will quadruple-dip (print singles, digital singles, tpbs then larger page count HCs), but I’d be interested to see a publisher work to longer form publication in the first instance, and how that would shape the storytelling freed from the shackles of publishing to fit collected editions.

I feel like trades/OGNs just keep an IP alive in the legal sense, and aren't really conductive to great storytelling or building up an audience.

[leonmallett]

I hope so. Forced collectability and chasing of story material (not variant covers) was the end of me reading VEI.

That said, I recognise the value of variants to bolster sales income, just not adding exclusivity to story content.

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

I could live with the GN approach.

I truly hope we don't see that.

I expect if Alien can do it they will quadruple-dip (print singles, digital singles, tpbs then larger page count HCs), but I’d be interested to see a publisher work to longer form publication in the first instance, and how that would shape the storytelling freed from the shackles of publishing to fit collected editions.

I feel like trades/OGNs just keep an IP alive in the legal sense, and aren't really conductive to great storytelling or building up an audience.

Very few collected editions are evergreen, and of those that are, likley only one really matters for IP holding (Watchmen), since by and large copyrights and trademarks are protected.

A way to maybe look at things differently is this: imagine if every movie was exactly 95 minutes long; there would be little room to push against those boundaries. Linear television has that problem, and therefore must work to constraints as comics do (albeit comics can flex panels per page whereas linear TV cannot really flex by minutes other than by one or two minutes). Look at streaming platform shows - they have episode lengths dictated by the material, rather than dictating the material to fit episode length.

OGNs would genuinely allow material to have the room to breathe if page counts were mapped to story rather than be packaged to the 22 page, 4/5/6 part story length we see with tpbs.

[Ryan]

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

I could live with the GN approach.

I truly hope we don't see that.

I expect if Alien can do it they will quadruple-dip (print singles, digital singles, tpbs then larger page count HCs), but I’d be interested to see a publisher work to longer form publication in the first instance, and how that would shape the storytelling freed from the shackles of publishing to fit collected editions.

I feel like trades/OGNs just keep an IP alive in the legal sense, and aren't really conductive to great storytelling or building up an audience.

Very few collected editions are evergreen, and of those that are, likley only one really matters for IP holding (Watchmen), since by and large copyrights and trademarks are protected.

A way to maybe look at things differently is this: imagine if every movie was exactly 95 minutes long; there would be little room to push against those boundaries. Linear television has that problem, and therefore must work to constraints as comics do (albeit comics can flex panels per page whereas linear TV cannot really flex by minutes other than by one or two minutes). Look at streaming platform shows - they have episode lengths dictated by the material, rather than dictating the material to fit episode length.

OGNs would genuinely allow material to have the room to breathe if page counts were mapped to story rather than be packaged to the 22 page, 4/5/6 part story length we see with tpbs.

I feel like 'writing for the trade' and decompression is a stylistic choice that moder comics use, but they don't have to. I know some may argue it 'lets the story breath' (nothing wrong with that), it usually just feels lazy and incomplete to me.

I get what you're saying though, ideally without the constraints of a certain page count, creativity would go up. I'm not as confident that would end up being the result.

There is also the fact that initial investment is higher to produce a GN. However I've seen it work for the crowdfunding business model, since charging $20-30 makes a lot more sense for a 50+ pg. GN than for a single issue.

I wouldn't like to see it since I still like the single issues and I still like the idea of comic book shops and new comic book day. But I wouldn't rule out what you're saying.

[Ryan]

I wouldn't like to see it since I still like the single issues and I still like the idea of comic book shops and new comic book day. But I wouldn't rule out what you're saying.

Plus a higher frequency of releases. Goes to MOTA's point of building momentum, building a universe, and building a fanbase is easier when there's more frequent releases. Could they do a new GN every month? Would be interesting to see.

[ManofTheAtom]

I wouldn't like to see it since I still like the single issues and I still like the idea of comic book shops and new comic book day. But I wouldn't rule out what you're saying.

Plus a higher frequency of releases. Goes to MOTA's point of building momentum, building a universe, and building a fanbase is easier when there's more frequent releases. Could they do a new GN every month? Would be interesting to see.

In theory, yeah. We could have one 96 page Bloodshot GN every month, but not necessarily by the same writer and certainly not the same artist.

I worry such a model might replicate how things were at the end of VH 1, when they published two issues a week but every month it was with essentially an entirely different creative team, resulting in each two issues being nothing more than insignificant one-offs, with no narrative thread.

[ManofTheAtom]

This is all assuming Alien will even do singles and not just dive into graphic novels and the like.

I could live with the GN approach.

I truly hope we don't see that.

I expect if Alien can do it they will quadruple-dip (print singles, digital singles, tpbs then larger page count HCs), but I’d be interested to see a publisher work to longer form publication in the first instance, and how that would shape the storytelling freed from the shackles of publishing to fit collected editions.

I feel like trades/OGNs just keep an IP alive in the legal sense, and aren't really conductive to great storytelling or building up an audience.

Very few collected editions are evergreen, and of those that are, likley only one really matters for IP holding (Watchmen), since by and large copyrights and trademarks are protected.

A way to maybe look at things differently is this: imagine if every movie was exactly 95 minutes long; there would be little room to push against those boundaries. Linear television has that problem, and therefore must work to constraints as comics do (albeit comics can flex panels per page whereas linear TV cannot really flex by minutes other than by one or two minutes). Look at streaming platform shows - they have episode lengths dictated by the material, rather than dictating the material to fit episode length.

OGNs would genuinely allow material to have the room to breathe if page counts were mapped to story rather than be packaged to the 22 page, 4/5/6 part story length we see with tpbs.

Well, that is certainly a problem with comic writers not really understanding real dramatic structure. That's why they need to pad things out between scenes to fill a page and issue quota.

If a story is created for a 96 or 120 page trade, it should be just as easily possible to break it down into single issues of 20, 22, or 24 pages each.

[Ryan]

I wouldn't like to see it since I still like the single issues and I still like the idea of comic book shops and new comic book day. But I wouldn't rule out what you're saying.

Plus a higher frequency of releases. Goes to MOTA's point of building momentum, building a universe, and building a fanbase is easier when there's more frequent releases. Could they do a new GN every month? Would be interesting to see.

In theory, yeah. We could have one 96 page Bloodshot GN every month, but not necessarily by the same writer and certainly not the same artist.

I worry such a model might replicate how things were at the end of VH 1, when they published two issues a week but every month it was with essentially an entirely different creative team, resulting in each two issues being nothing more than insignificant one-offs, with no narrative thread.

I meant one GN per month overall. So in theory you'd have Bloodshot one month, X-O the next month, etc. Then Bloodshot (for example) would come out quarterly or 2 or 3 times a year by the same creative team. A little bit similar to the French BD market, where a single creative team does 2-4 'Albums' per year of a single title.

Not saying I'm in favor of this, I prefer the single issue (comic magazine) format myself.

[Ryan]

Well, that is certainly a problem with comic writers not really understanding real dramatic structure. That's why they need to pad things out between scenes to fill a page and issue quota.

If a story is created for a 96 or 120 page trade, it should be just as easily possible to break it down into single issues of 20, 22, or 24 pages each.

Definitely. Writers barely ever write for the single issue format anymore anyway.

[ManofTheAtom]

I wouldn't like to see it since I still like the single issues and I still like the idea of comic book shops and new comic book day. But I wouldn't rule out what you're saying.

Plus a higher frequency of releases. Goes to MOTA's point of building momentum, building a universe, and building a fanbase is easier when there's more frequent releases. Could they do a new GN every month? Would be interesting to see.

In theory, yeah. We could have one 96 page Bloodshot GN every month, but not necessarily by the same writer and certainly not the same artist.

I worry such a model might replicate how things were at the end of VH 1, when they published two issues a week but every month it was with essentially an entirely different creative team, resulting in each two issues being nothing more than insignificant one-offs, with no narrative thread.

I meant one GN per month overall. So in theory you'd have Bloodshot one month, X-O the next month, etc. Then Bloodshot (for example) would come out quarterly or 2 or 3 times a year by the same creative team. A little bit similar to the French BD market, where a single creative team does 2-4 'Albums' per year of a single title.

Not saying I'm in favor of this, I prefer the single issue (comic magazine) format myself.

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

[Ryan]

I wouldn't like to see it since I still like the single issues and I still like the idea of comic book shops and new comic book day. But I wouldn't rule out what you're saying.

Plus a higher frequency of releases. Goes to MOTA's point of building momentum, building a universe, and building a fanbase is easier when there's more frequent releases. Could they do a new GN every month? Would be interesting to see.

In theory, yeah. We could have one 96 page Bloodshot GN every month, but not necessarily by the same writer and certainly not the same artist.

I worry such a model might replicate how things were at the end of VH 1, when they published two issues a week but every month it was with essentially an entirely different creative team, resulting in each two issues being nothing more than insignificant one-offs, with no narrative thread.

I meant one GN per month overall. So in theory you'd have Bloodshot one month, X-O the next month, etc. Then Bloodshot (for example) would come out quarterly or 2 or 3 times a year by the same creative team. A little bit similar to the French BD market, where a single creative team does 2-4 'Albums' per year of a single title.

Not saying I'm in favor of this, I prefer the single issue (comic magazine) format myself.

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

I agree, just trying to imagine how a GN line would work.

Something similar was tried with the DC Earth One series.

[ManofTheAtom]

I wouldn't like to see it since I still like the single issues and I still like the idea of comic book shops and new comic book day. But I wouldn't rule out what you're saying.

Plus a higher frequency of releases. Goes to MOTA's point of building momentum, building a universe, and building a fanbase is easier when there's more frequent releases. Could they do a new GN every month? Would be interesting to see.

In theory, yeah. We could have one 96 page Bloodshot GN every month, but not necessarily by the same writer and certainly not the same artist.

I worry such a model might replicate how things were at the end of VH 1, when they published two issues a week but every month it was with essentially an entirely different creative team, resulting in each two issues being nothing more than insignificant one-offs, with no narrative thread.

I meant one GN per month overall. So in theory you'd have Bloodshot one month, X-O the next month, etc. Then Bloodshot (for example) would come out quarterly or 2 or 3 times a year by the same creative team. A little bit similar to the French BD market, where a single creative team does 2-4 'Albums' per year of a single title.

Not saying I'm in favor of this, I prefer the single issue (comic magazine) format myself.

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

I agree, just trying to imagine how a GN line would work.

Something similar was tried with the DC Earth One series.

Yeah, and that fizzled out. I think that the most they ever got was three Superman GNs from JMS.

[leonmallett]

Plus a higher frequency of releases. Goes to MOTA's point of building momentum, building a universe, and building a fanbase is easier when there's more frequent releases. Could they do a new GN every month? Would be interesting to see.

In theory, yeah. We could have one 96 page Bloodshot GN every month, but not necessarily by the same writer and certainly not the same artist.

I worry such a model might replicate how things were at the end of VH 1, when they published two issues a week but every month it was with essentially an entirely different creative team, resulting in each two issues being nothing more than insignificant one-offs, with no narrative thread.

I meant one GN per month overall. So in theory you'd have Bloodshot one month, X-O the next month, etc. Then Bloodshot (for example) would come out quarterly or 2 or 3 times a year by the same creative team. A little bit similar to the French BD market, where a single creative team does 2-4 'Albums' per year of a single title.

Not saying I'm in favor of this, I prefer the single issue (comic magazine) format myself.

See, I'm not a fan of that. It's not really conductive to proper world and universe building. It's just something one reads to pass the time.

I really hope that's not what happens.

I agree, just trying to imagine how a GN line would work.

Something similar was tried with the DC Earth One series.

Yeah, and that fizzled out. I think that the most they ever got was three Superman GNs from JMS.

3 Batman, 3 Wonder Woman, 3 Superman, 2 Green Lantern, 2 Teen Titans.