WOW..late night websurfing led to this Shooter/VEI Info..

[valiantdude]

Ya know I just made a comment on another thread about how Shooter mustve felt bad about leaving VEI for Dark Horse.. and then pretty randomly, while I happened to look at a forum about Defiant Comics that I havent looked at in 10 years..led to this..

"jimshooter said...

Dear JediJones,

RE: VEI: I will soon tell the whole story of my working at VEI (secretly, at their insistence!) on staff for seven and a half months. Briefly: I took the job (after turning them down several times) because at the time, I needed a gig, any gig, and at first I actually thought there might be a future at VEI.

I was ordered to stay out of sight when visitors came to the office. I even had to hide in the men's room on one occasion. They said they wanted to save the revelation of my involvement for the launch.

I wrote some good stuff for them under difficult working conditions -- working in a small room with as many as four other people who were talking all the time. P.S. the job I accepted wasn't supposed to involve writing. I was supposed to be Editor in Chief, directing writers, not writing the material myself. But from day one, I was ordered to write -- film presentations, character developments, scripts....

Eventually, too much was too much. I quit because of the crap involved in that situation, called Mike Richardson and worked out a gig at Dark Horse.

Then came their spurious, meritless lawsuit -- withdrawn, by the way, when it failed to compel Mike Richardson into making movie deals with them. Mike is not easily manipulated. Nice try, Fred Pierce, Jason and Dinesh.

Those weasels may sue me again after I tell the tale, but let them. I have documents and witnesses. Mike, for instance. They owe me accrued vacation pay, $4,000+, and reimbursement of the approximately $11,000 it cost to defend myself. They are scum.
October 9, 2011 12:59 AM "

So maybe that was the universe trying to tell me the other side of the story?

Super *SQUEE* weird..

[Intrepidxc]

Interesting. When I read things like this I always tell myself there are two sides to any story and truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'd love to learn more about what really happened between Shooter and VEI.

[Keith]

Interesting. When I read things like this I always tell myself there are two sides to any story and truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'd love to learn more about what really happened between Shooter and VEI.

My thoughts exactly. Plus, Shooter seems to be one of those folks perpetually being wronged, never doing the wrong... but that is just my opinion/perception.

[kjjohanson]

Interesting. When I read things like this I always tell myself there are two sides to any story and truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'd love to learn more about what really happened between Shooter and VEI.

My thoughts exactly. Plus, Shooter seems to be one of those folks perpetually being wronged, never doing the wrong... but that is just my opinion/perception.

That's probably the most telling bit. One thing to consider is that Shooter started writing comics when he was in his early teens, and selling them by his mid-teens. His early professional path probably led to him developing people skills that are far different than most people, so I can understand why things might work a little different in his mind.

[SJS4]

Pretty sure i have seen this written before. Such a shame he always feels like a victim. Obviously none of us were in the room, but if you read between the lines i don't think VEI did anything wrong.

1. Holding back the news that he was hired until they wanted to announce the relaunch just seems like SOP for good marketing.
2. Sharing office space is normal at new conpanies/startups.
3. Vacation pay: Per his own account, he quit, he wasn't fired. If he had an employment contract (that he thinks guaranteed him vacation pay) there is about a 99.9% chance HE broke the contract when he quit. If he didn't have an employment contract then he was an at will employee that wasn't entitled to anything, period.
4. How can they owe him legal fees if the case was never ruled on? If they withdrew the case as he claims, there is no duty for the entity bringing the suit to pay legal fees to the other side.

[Magnus9178]

I had already known Dino's side of this story and it's nice to see Jim's. Like it's already been said "There are two sides to every story..."

I have no doubt that VEI went out of their way to try and please him while he was working for him. But remember that Shooter is known for being very difficult to work with. I'm sure there's a lot more back and forth, little things, that we don't know that help escalate things between the two. It's too bad they could not work things out in the end but then again... had they worked it out then the VEI universe we know would be completely different.

As for the lawsuit... when Shooter left he took with him a very big part that VEI had put so much stake into so of course the only route they had to take was a lawsuit. The lawsuit was probably over specific contract disputes and VEI was loosing much more then Shooter when he left. In the end things worked out for VEI and not so much for Shooter (VEI has the valiant characters and Shooter's GK books were cancelled less then a year into the run). Though it would've been nice to have Shooter and the GK characters all VEI has proven is that they don't need them!

[FormerReader]

What a waste. Some people are their own worst enemy.

[valiantdude]

As for the lawsuit... when Shooter left he took with him a very big part that VEI had put so much stake into so of course the only route they had to take was a lawsuit.

So what exactly did he take with him? I would be really interested to know that..

It seems like if he ended up doing GK books at dark horse, and that was after he quit VEI, then there was a brief second that those characters couldve been at VEI..hmmm

There are definitely some holes...
Like okay...so its loud at the office and youre trying to work.. I would say, "Hey guys its really *SQUEE* loud in here so Im going to work at home, Ill be back later"
or like "Hey guys you dont want people to see me, ill work at home, and lets skype or something if you wanna have a meeting, cuz me hiding in the poop palace is kinda *SQUEE* up"
or maybe say something like "whats the deal? you want me to be EIC, but theres no writers, im doing the writing, can we talk about this?"

So how would a lawsuit force DH into movie deals? That doesnt really make sense..
based on this I would say that the chances of Jim ever working at VEI again are non-existant..dang

Really though, its like.. Ive got a job writing comics, for characters I know well, helped create, etc... who cares what you have to do, youre getting paid.. The hiding in the crapper part is messed up, okay I get that part, but everything else was flexible..

Theres probably more though so the middle ground Im getting is that VEI werent very professional in how they handled Jims employment, could have been more clear on the job description, and maybe should have had him work from home and tele-commute, if they wanted to hide him so bad.., and jim should have been way more flexible, did whatever they asked, and figured out a way to communicate and get his needs met so he didnt feel frustrated..

[FormerReader]

I respect Jim for everything he helped create. If it wasn't for his involvement Valiant would not exist. What kills me though is he got a second chance at these characters. I can understand how angry he was when he was forced out of Valiant back in the day. He got screwed over, but then he got a second chance to have his characters back and he couldn't stop being a jerk. I can't understand why he couldn't swallow his pride and show a little patience and he could have recreated the universe as he originally planned to.

I will never understand people.

[SJS4]

I respect Jim for everything he helped create. If it wasn't for his involvement Valiant would not exist. What kills me though is he got a second chance at these characters. I can understand how angry he was when he was forced out of Valiant back in the day. He got screwed over, but then he got a second chance to have his characters back and he couldn't stop being a jerk. I can't understand why he couldn't swallow his pride and show a little patience and he could have recreated the universe as he originally planned to.

I will never understand people.

That is very true. Not many people get a second chance to do something like this. Even if Dino et al were inexperienced amateurs it still seems like he would have wanted to stick around just for the chance to recreate his vision.

[valiantdude]

its funny because everyone who responded concluded for the most part that it must be jims ego/attitude and no one has even said anything about the potential of vei doing anything wrong...shooter saying.. 'they are scum"? those are pretty harsh words reserved for people that really *SQUEE* you over..
there has to be something that was messed up coming from vei...seriously... is anybodg gonna stick up for jim? everybody is just gonna assume hes an a-hole and thats it? something seems fishy here...

[Tim]

its funny because everyone who responded concluded for the most part that it must be jims ego/attitude and no one has even said anything about the potential of vei doing anything wrong...shooter saying.. 'they are scum"? those are pretty harsh words reserved for people that really *SQUEE* you over..
there has to be something that was messed up coming from vei...seriously... is anybodg gonna stick up for jim? everybody is just gonna assume hes an a-hole and thats it? something seems fishy here...

Welcome to the new normal around here.

[iggy101us]

its funny because everyone who responded concluded for the most part that it must be jims ego/attitude and no one has even said anything about the potential of vei doing anything wrong...shooter saying.. 'they are scum"? those are pretty harsh words reserved for people that really *SQUEE* you over..
there has to be something that was messed up coming from vei...seriously... is anybodg gonna stick up for jim? everybody is just gonna assume hes an a-hole and thats it? something seems fishy here...

Welcome to the new normal around here.

That's why I resurrected the old thread below from 2009 about the lawsuit. See page 12 with the quotes from the veterans from JayJay, Layton, David Lapham, . . . It was certainly a hot topic back then. Obviously there are at least 2 sides to this story and the truth is most likely in the middle. But back then, it seemed like more people were supporting/sympathetic towards Shooter.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=28436" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SJS4]

Interesting old thread. I think tge subsequent events obviously change peoples perceptions on what happened.

Was VEI an amateur company in 2009? Probably...but scumbags? Probably not, considering how many OG Valiant folks have been working with them.

And objectively things worked out great for VEI and pretty badly for Jim and Dark Key.

[Intrepidxc]

its funny because everyone who responded concluded for the most part that it must be jims ego/attitude and no one has even said anything about the potential of vei doing anything wrong...shooter saying.. 'they are scum"? those are pretty harsh words reserved for people that really *SQUEE* you over..
there has to be something that was messed up coming from vei...seriously... is anybodg gonna stick up for jim? everybody is just gonna assume hes an a-hole and thats it? something seems fishy here...

I think I said the truth was in the middle and didn't take either side . I AM curious about what happened, but from my experiences with the VEI staff and meeting Jim Shooter I can't believe either side would do something so egregious to the other. But something obviously happened or maybe I'm just a poor judge of character.

[rkjock1]

its funny because everyone who responded concluded for the most part that it must be jims ego/attitude and no one has even said anything about the potential of vei doing anything wrong...shooter saying.. 'they are scum"? those are pretty harsh words reserved for people that really *SQUEE* you over..
there has to be something that was messed up coming from vei...seriously... is anybodg gonna stick up for jim? everybody is just gonna assume hes an a-hole and thats it? something seems fishy here...

I think I said the truth was in the middle and didn't take either side . I AM curious about what happened, but from my experiences with the VEI staff and meeting Jim Shooter I can't believe either side would do something so egregious to the other. But something obviously happened or maybe I'm just a poor judge of character.

None of us can know what really went on there. My guess is Dinesh and Co. didn't come across as consummate professionals in the early days, which has also been said by Priest and Bright with regards to Q&W. But they seem to have genuinely been trying, again as evidenced by the outcome of the Priest and Bright tension.

That said, it has been documented in many circles that Shooter is an arrogant, difficult to work with individual who is, as has been said, always the victim in his own mind. He blamed the buyout of Marvel for his ouster as EIC, yet both Marvel Comics: The Untold Story and Comic Wars are litanies of other comics professionals ripping into the man for his unprofessional conduct. (Research how he treated Jack Kirby if you don't believe me.) He blames Layton and Massarsky for his ouster from Valiant. He blames Marvel, again, for the failure of Defiant. Poor, poor, misunderstood Jim.

Which isn't to say he doesn't have both his defenders and fans. He does. He IS the original architect of Valiant, so there's at least that.

But, let's look at the facts then:
1) Dinesh and Co. had some growing pains at the start so they likely are not blameless. (Anecdotal based on other creators.)
2) Shooter is notorious for being incredibly difficult to work with. (This is documented in multiple places.)
3) There was a lawsuit. Among other things it alleges Shooter took a Company owned computer with him when he left and that he owed VEI for the intellectual creations (i.e. stories) that he created as work-for-hire for them, which he took with him and allowed Dark Horse to publish. (I can't say more than that as I only read the original filing.)
4) Shooter has clearly been loud and in people's faces about his version of what happened. VEI has chosen to stay almost entirely mum on the issue. Which of these two scenarios is more professional? And which one seems to be all about getting some attention and spinning the facts?

My two cents.

[hunter_peterson]

its funny because everyone who responded concluded for the most part that it must be jims ego/attitude and no one has even said anything about the potential of vei doing anything wrong...shooter saying.. 'they are scum"? those are pretty harsh words reserved for people that really *SQUEE* you over..
there has to be something that was messed up coming from vei...seriously... is anybodg gonna stick up for jim? everybody is just gonna assume hes an a-hole and thats it? something seems fishy here...

To be fair, this totally fits with everything I've ever heard about Shooter in the workplace. A lot of his decisions have been self-sabotage, so it's not surprising that people assume that this is the case here. I guess we probably will never really know.

What we DO know is that calling VEI "scumbags" is very obviously not accurate. They've shown many times that they are incredibly decent people. So I'd say his venom towards them not matching their behaviour would indicate the beef was his own doing.

That said, they should have got him to work from home if they didn't want him seen.

[valiantdude]

holy cow, i totally missed that thread in 2009, i was having a daughter at that time and was totally oit of the loop for like a year, completely missed that...i thought what i found last night was new news, but i guess not...just wow, im so sorry i ever said anything bad about jim related to this issue, im an idiot... if i wouldve known this three years ago, i wouldnt have been so supportive of vei in 2012.. dissed by the old schoolers...jayjay, layton, and lapham... wonder if they ever paid mike leeke... damn dinesh, i cant believe the guy who had the valiant birthday cake let all that go down... wow

[Magnus9178]

its funny because everyone who responded concluded for the most part that it must be jims ego/attitude and no one has even said anything about the potential of vei doing anything wrong...shooter saying.. 'they are scum"? those are pretty harsh words reserved for people that really *SQUEE* you over..
there has to be something that was messed up coming from vei...seriously... is anybodg gonna stick up for jim? everybody is just gonna assume hes an a-hole and thats it? something seems fishy here...

Welcome to the new normal around here.

That's why I resurrected the old thread below from 2009 about the lawsuit. See page 12 with the quotes from the veterans from JayJay, Layton, David Lapham, . . . It was certainly a hot topic back then. Obviously there are at least 2 sides to this story and the truth is most likely in the middle. But back then, it seemed like more people were supporting/sympathetic towards Shooter.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=28436" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WOW, reading up on all the stuff from 2009 totally changed my opinion. That does not make VEI sound good at all, but again 2 sides of the story... I just wish there was less muddy waters in the beginning

[geocarr]

My guess is Dinesh and Co. didn't come across as consummate professionals in the early days, which has also been said by Priest and Bright with regards to Q&W. But they seem to have genuinely been trying, again as evidenced by the outcome of the Priest and Bright tension.

Is this thing between VEI and Priest & Bright documented somewhere that I could read?

[myron]

My guess is Dinesh and Co. didn't come across as consummate professionals in the early days, which has also been said by Priest and Bright with regards to Q&W. But they seem to have genuinely been trying, again as evidenced by the outcome of the Priest and Bright tension.

Is this thing between VEI and Priest & Bright documented somewhere that I could read?

seem to remember something about it in a thread here or there...

[geocarr]

My guess is Dinesh and Co. didn't come across as consummate professionals in the early days, which has also been said by Priest and Bright with regards to Q&W. But they seem to have genuinely been trying, again as evidenced by the outcome of the Priest and Bright tension.

Is this thing between VEI and Priest & Bright documented somewhere that I could read?

seem to remember something about it in a thread here or there...

Thanks Myron!

[valiantdude]

There is a lot if info in that 2009 thread that I had no idea about...I really am shocked that they went after Shooter for 3 million dollars..what the hell was that going to accomplish?
So essentially there was a brief moment where Shooter was the legit EIC if VEI.. but it was three years before they actually would have comics on the stands..
weird..

[iggy101us]

There is a lot if info in that 2009 thread that I had no idea about...I really am shocked that they went after Shooter for 3 million dollars..what the hell was that going to accomplish?
So essentially there was a brief moment where Shooter was the legit EIC if VEI.. but it was three years before they actually would have comics on the stands..
weird..

Check out this thread too: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30573" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some quotes from it:

Ok, so I will do my best to relay the details of our discussion this morning. First off, I mentioned how excited everyone here on the forums was about the DH launch of Magnus and Solar. I asked him if he would be willing to tell me about VEI and the Lawsuit, which he happily agree too. He said VEI approached him to write their new stories, but Jim would only take the job if they made him the Creative director (or chief editor). They agreed on a salary and benefits and Jim got to work.

Over the course of the next seven months VEI was having him sit in an office writing, which he hated because he wanted to be helping them setup their new universe and get things rolling. Not writing stories as backups for reprinted material.

They had him hide in his office when certain people came into their offices for meetings. Telling him they wanted to keep his employment with them a secret until they had their big reveal planned and ready to go. Jim said at this point he had had enough and quit. Jim was quite sincere when he told me he was disappointed that it didn’t work out.

As for the Lawsuit: The lawsuit claimed Jim broke his contract with VEI and brought their ideas over to Dark Horse (you guys know what the lawsuit was about). Mike Richardson (DH) had already acquired the Gold Key right before approaching Jim with the job offer. He told me that he had never had a contract with VEI, he never signed anything. VEI had no grounds for the suit in the first place. So Jim said the lawsuit was filed with the courts but he had never been served. After 120 days the suit automatically got dropped.

He mentioned that VEI was trying to use the lawsuit to force Mike Richardson (DH) to work with them on an Archer & Armstrong movie project. Jim felt VEI filed the lawsuit mainly for publicity. As for the Harbinger movie, sounds like David Lapham threatened to file a lawsuit if he didn’t get creator rights (harbinger) on the film. Paramount studios heard about the disagreement and pulled out of the deal. Jim just gave me a look and laughed, “Creator rights? I’m pretty sure I created Harbinger two years before Dave came on board.”

I thanked him for sharing the story with me, shook his hand and wished him well. I think that just about covers the conversation; he is a very passionate man. He loves comics and loves writing them. Unfortunately I didnt have time to stay for his Dark-Key panel. hopefully I can find it on youtube (someone was recording them).


So I was thinking... I have 1 or 2 F.C.B.D. Magnus/Solar issues signed by Mr. Shooter. Would anyone like to have a copy? I was thinking of doing a name in the hat drawing. I'll even cover shipping.

Thanks for writing up that post. I enjoyed the info.

Bummer about the way it all worked out.


But why would VEI need DH for an A&A movie?

Mark Richardson has a lot of money and a lot of Hollywood contacts. Mark told Jim that VEI was trying to use the lawsuit to leverage a joint movie deal. I guess Mr. Richardson didn't take to kindly to being threatened. Jim said Mark told them off and that was the end of it.

Note: I hesitated a bit before writing about this part of the conversation. I knew it would bring up more questions than I would have answers for. But it was such and interesting part of the discussion I had to mention it.

I dont want to start any rumors about VEI's business practices. Remember this was a 4th person account of a retelling

[rkjock1]

There is a lot if info in that 2009 thread that I had no idea about...I really am shocked that they went after Shooter for 3 million dollars..what the hell was that going to accomplish?
So essentially there was a brief moment where Shooter was the legit EIC if VEI.. but it was three years before they actually would have comics on the stands..
weird..

Check out this thread too: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30573" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some quotes from it:

Ok, so I will do my best to relay the details of our discussion this morning. First off, I mentioned how excited everyone here on the forums was about the DH launch of Magnus and Solar. I asked him if he would be willing to tell me about VEI and the Lawsuit, which he happily agree too. He said VEI approached him to write their new stories, but Jim would only take the job if they made him the Creative director (or chief editor). They agreed on a salary and benefits and Jim got to work.

Over the course of the next seven months VEI was having him sit in an office writing, which he hated because he wanted to be helping them setup their new universe and get things rolling. Not writing stories as backups for reprinted material.

They had him hide in his office when certain people came into their offices for meetings. Telling him they wanted to keep his employment with them a secret until they had their big reveal planned and ready to go. Jim said at this point he had had enough and quit. Jim was quite sincere when he told me he was disappointed that it didn’t work out.

As for the Lawsuit: The lawsuit claimed Jim broke his contract with VEI and brought their ideas over to Dark Horse (you guys know what the lawsuit was about). Mike Richardson (DH) had already acquired the Gold Key right before approaching Jim with the job offer. He told me that he had never had a contract with VEI, he never signed anything. VEI had no grounds for the suit in the first place. So Jim said the lawsuit was filed with the courts but he had never been served. After 120 days the suit automatically got dropped.

He mentioned that VEI was trying to use the lawsuit to force Mike Richardson (DH) to work with them on an Archer & Armstrong movie project. Jim felt VEI filed the lawsuit mainly for publicity. As for the Harbinger movie, sounds like David Lapham threatened to file a lawsuit if he didn’t get creator rights (harbinger) on the film. Paramount studios heard about the disagreement and pulled out of the deal. Jim just gave me a look and laughed, “Creator rights? I’m pretty sure I created Harbinger two years before Dave came on board.”

I thanked him for sharing the story with me, shook his hand and wished him well. I think that just about covers the conversation; he is a very passionate man. He loves comics and loves writing them. Unfortunately I didnt have time to stay for his Dark-Key panel. hopefully I can find it on youtube (someone was recording them).


So I was thinking... I have 1 or 2 F.C.B.D. Magnus/Solar issues signed by Mr. Shooter. Would anyone like to have a copy? I was thinking of doing a name in the hat drawing. I'll even cover shipping.

Thanks for writing up that post. I enjoyed the info.

Bummer about the way it all worked out.


But why would VEI need DH for an A&A movie?

Mark Richardson has a lot of money and a lot of Hollywood contacts. Mark told Jim that VEI was trying to use the lawsuit to leverage a joint movie deal. I guess Mr. Richardson didn't take to kindly to being threatened. Jim said Mark told them off and that was the end of it.

Note: I hesitated a bit before writing about this part of the conversation. I knew it would bring up more questions than I would have answers for. But it was such and interesting part of the discussion I had to mention it.

I dont want to start any rumors about VEI's business practices. Remember this was a 4th person account of a retelling

Okay, here's my problem with all of that. Simply put, how would a lawsuit filed against Shooter, and only Shooter, have anything at all to do with Dark Horse?

Think for a second, if they wanted to try forcing DH's hand in anything, and as Jim alleges the lawsuit had no merit and was never served, why not sue Dark Horse for "corporate espionage" or for luring Shooter out of his contract citing a non-compete clause?

The idea that they sued Jim for theft of property and breach of contract for absconding with intellectual property matters that VEI rightfully owned has NOTHING to do with Dark Horse. Not unless they could prove a solid connection between the two entities that established collusion. But they didn't even attempt to do that.

I'm just not buying that part of things.