Shadowman: End Times #2 Discussion

[kjjohanson]

Oh that's right; there was another book out this week (which I haven't read yet)

[BugsySig]

This issue was terrible.

Are we just supposed to forget that Jack met Josiah in Deadside?

How stupid was that pile of cars?

Why isn't Jaunty speaking funny any more?

Why is Jack so *SQUEE* at his father? Because he had a *SQUEE* childhood? Act like a *SQUEE* adult for gods sake...the guy fought Master Darque and gave up his family to help you.

I just don't get anything that Milligan is doing here. I thought he was starting to turn the book around while maintaining the continuity that cam before, but now it seems like he's just force feeding plot points into the book and it reads like crap.

[spiderland]

Yeah this new direction is a total mess. The car monster thing made me laugh out loud.

The only thing I enjoy about Milligan's new direction is the Punk Mambo. Give her the loa and then we'd have a book.

[pixierosa]

I hate to say it, but "meh". I've been rooting for this book to succeed, but I'm not happy about the characters devolving into one dimensional cliches. Jack really needs to put on his big boy pants and suck it up.

There may be a lot more to the story but it's not being conveyed effectively.

[lorddunlow]

Yeah, not crazy about this. #13 was so good. What is happening? It just gets worse with each issue.

[MoonChild]

Bummer, I come here to see how the new books are doing and I see this to tell u guys the truth I never liked the look of this new shadowman not nearly as cool as the og same for eternal warrior. If its not broke why try n fix it?

[erwinrafael]

Yeah, not crazy about this. #13 was so good. What is happening? It just gets worse with each issue.

Maybe Milligan has been asked to just clean the slate. so he is just phoning it in.

[valiantkurt]

I was unable to get this issue yesterday. My local shop didn't have it, but it sounds like I didn't miss anything important. Still I hope they get it in next week.

[greg]

While the finished product certainly lacked some of the better examples of Valiant art and writing, I think it is still worth noting that we got:

- Josiah is definitely "alive" in some sense
- Deadside is still being shown as a variety of "levels" which require certain keys/people to cross
- A new character who keeps "one foot" on each side of two of the levels in Deadside
- Darque's condition at this point in the story (since it has been an unknown for months)

[dornwolf]

Yeah, not crazy about this. #13 was so good. What is happening? It just gets worse with each issue.

Maybe Milligan has been asked to just clean the slate. so he is just phoning it in.

then why not just kill Jack and move the spirit to someone new and reboot. Cause this looks less like a clean slate and more of a general lack of paying attention to everything in the past. I know Justin Jordan didn't exactly flesh out Jack very well but at no point did he come off as an anger driven withdrawn child. He met his father and clearly had no anger towards the man who was clearly trapped in the Deadside while Jack was a kid so there was no running away he was trapped that entire time. He clearly survived and decided not to come home after Jack made the choice.

[Bl00dsh0t]

I quite enjoyed End Times #1, but this was just bad. Despite introducing some cool concepts, Milligan failed to convey them with conviction. Also the art is terrible.

I hope Jordan gets another shot at Shadowman, perhaps as a reboot, clean slate with a Shadowman post Jack cos this incarnation isn't going anywhere.

[jmatt]

Although there were some drawbacks, I liked the issue. The car-pile representation of Josiah seems silly, but perhaps each one represents a wrecked life he caused (perhaps even literally in a car wreck) just as Helena was killed. And okay, Jaunty seemed out of character a bit.

I like that we saw Samedi again, and Darque. I like that we learned about Voodoun, a level between our world and deadside. I liked the crossroads and the one-legged man.

Not sure I understand the dislike of Jack's motivations. He learns a father he revered abandoned his family, leaving them on the run and ultimately with the death of his mother. And now he knows that his father is still alive. I can understand his hurtful anger. (Although I can't say I remember when he met Josiah in Deadside, help me out here. So yeah, maybe a continuity issue there)

The art wasn't RDT but it worked. I dunno, my gut reaction was that I liked the issue.

[Bl00dsh0t]

I quite enjoyed End Times #1, but this was just bad. Despite introducing some cool concepts, Milligan failed to convey them with conviction. Also the art is terrible.

I hope Jordan gets another shot at Shadowman, perhaps as a reboot, clean slate with a Shadowman post Jack cos this incarnation isn't going anywhere.

[grendeljd]

The car-pile representation of Josiah seems silly, but perhaps each one represents a wrecked life he caused (perhaps even literally in a car wreck)

Soo tempted to make an analogy between the 21-car pileup imagery and the direction of this book overall...

I seriously hate to say that. I want to enjoy this book so much more than I am, and I absolutely prefer to only post positive commentary or constructive criticism in general.

There are plenty of great elements to like about the book since Milligan took over. Punk Mambo. The new aspects of the Shadowman Loa mythos, it being cast out of a voodoo pantheon, the other Loa spirits like Tremble...

And this issue of End Times had many individually cool facets & tidbits - I liked seeing Darque on the post at the end, I thought Leggy was a really cool new character, and the further exploration of how the Deadside works (except the bit about losing years off Jacks life the longer he stays - was that a new arbitrary fact this issue, or am I being forgetful?)...

But the sum feels like less than the parts, somehow. I can't quite put a finger on why, but partly I think it's that a lot of the characterization feels forced. I just don't buy the Jack & Alyssa being in love part, even though it makes sense for it to have happened - I think I would have believed it more if it had occurred during JJ's run - there was an electric spark of instant energy & chemistry between them in the earliest issues that I liked, it felt like it would be a natural progression for them to fall in love. But that isn't being portrayed the same now. There is a lack of true emotional expression, it seems like we keep having to read the same status quo, wooden statements repeated every issue about how everyone is feeling about themselves & each other.

And again, I hate to criticize, but maybe the art is also not contributing enough to an effective conveyance of the storytelling here. I'm still onboard with no intention of dropping the book, but I feel like it is still struggling to fire on all cylinders.

[dornwolf]

Not sure I understand the dislike of Jack's motivations. He learns a father he revered abandoned his family, leaving them on the run and ultimately with the death of his mother. And now he knows that his father is still alive. I can understand his hurtful anger. (Although I can't say I remember when he met Josiah in Deadside, help me out here. So yeah, maybe a continuity issue there)

For me personally, it just comes off as whiny and forced "drama" and "angst" and none of it lines up.

In issue #1 page 1 it's shown Josiah leaving to fight Darque and Jacks mom telling him not to bother coming back to her if he survives. So who abandoned who?

Other parts include that Jack after learning his parents were "criminals" (this could've been falsified information that Jordan was going to pick up on later), didn't give a crap afterwards about his parents. He wasn't cut up about not knowing them more or anything. He didn't give a crap at all about his dad again until Milligan retconned it in to to build up the idea that Josiah was "the greatest Shadowman" and to pull off the shock of him being alive still.

That all said, this depends entirely on the fact that the Loa has lied about absolutely everything.

But the sum feels like less than the parts, somehow. I can't quite put a finger on why, but partly I think it's that a lot of the characterization feels forced. I just don't buy the Jack & Alyssa being in love part, even though it makes sense for it to have happened - I think I would have believed it more if it had occurred during JJ's run - there was an electric spark of instant energy & chemistry between them in the earliest issues that I liked, it felt like it would be a natural progression for them to fall in love. But that isn't being portrayed the same now. There is a lack of true emotional expression, it seems like we keep having to read the same status quo, wooden statements repeated every issue about how everyone is feeling about themselves & each other.
(

I've always felt that the relationship was going to happen eventually if Jordan had been able to stick around but I agree this feels forced and uncomfortable.

[lorddunlow]

The car-pile representation of Josiah seems silly, but perhaps each one represents a wrecked life he caused (perhaps even literally in a car wreck)

Soo tempted to make an analogy between the 21-car pileup imagery and the direction of this book overall...

I seriously hate to say that. I want to enjoy this book so much more than I am, and I absolutely prefer to only post positive commentary or constructive criticism in general.

There are plenty of great elements to like about the book since Milligan took over. Punk Mambo. The new aspects of the Shadowman Loa mythos, it being cast out of a voodoo pantheon, the other Loa spirits like Tremble...

And this issue of End Times had many individually cool facets & tidbits - I liked seeing Darque on the post at the end, I thought Leggy was a really cool new character, and the further exploration of how the Deadside works (except the bit about losing years off Jacks life the longer he stays - was that a new arbitrary fact this issue, or am I being forgetful?)...

But the sum feels like less than the parts, somehow. I can't quite put a finger on why, but partly I think it's that a lot of the characterization feels forced. I just don't buy the Jack & Alyssa being in love part, even though it makes sense for it to have happened - I think I would have believed it more if it had occurred during JJ's run - there was an electric spark of instant energy & chemistry between them in the earliest issues that I liked, it felt like it would be a natural progression for them to fall in love. But that isn't being portrayed the same now. There is a lack of true emotional expression, it seems like we keep having to read the same status quo, wooden statements repeated every issue about how everyone is feeling about themselves & each other.

And again, I hate to criticize, but maybe the art is also not contributing enough to an effective conveyance of the storytelling here. I'm still onboard with no intention of dropping the book, but I feel like it is still struggling to fire on all cylinders.

Yeah, what the Canadian *SQUEE* said - I agree with all of that.

[BugsySig]

Although there were some drawbacks, I liked the issue. The car-pile representation of Josiah seems silly, but perhaps each one represents a wrecked life he caused (perhaps even literally in a car wreck) just as Helena was killed. And okay, Jaunty seemed out of character a bit.

I like that we saw Samedi again, and Darque. I like that we learned about Voodoun, a level between our world and deadside. I liked the crossroads and the one-legged man.

Not sure I understand the dislike of Jack's motivations. He learns a father he revered abandoned his family, leaving them on the run and ultimately with the death of his mother. And now he knows that his father is still alive. I can understand his hurtful anger. (Although I can't say I remember when he met Josiah in Deadside, help me out here. So yeah, maybe a continuity issue there)

The art wasn't RDT but it worked. I dunno, my gut reaction was that I liked the issue.

I believe its at the end of issue 3 when Jack and what's her name are trapped in Deadside. Jaunty leads him to Josiah, who is guarding a doorway in/out (I forget which) to prevent Darque from going through. Josiah traps the Loa and gives Jack the choice of keeping it or going home free. Jack chooses to keep the Loa and save what's her name and Josiah gives him his Gris-Gris and the staff.

[hunter_peterson]

I agree with what everyone else has said; the plot itself isn't terrible and the new characters/mythology additions are cool, but the book simply has no heart. For a story hinging on extremely strong feelings, I'm not feeling them. It all seems weirdly hollow.

I also agree that they should really just kill Jack off at his point- he's kind of a trainwreck. I totally advocate Alyssa becoming Shadowoman just because her internal conflicts about that could be fantastic and an easy case could be made for her being distantly related to the Bonifaces. But the current direction of the book is officially a mess again, and I'm not quite sure why.

I mean, for example, why the hell isn't Darque still attached to his machine that makes Eaters? He's instead in the Voudoun lands, not the Deadside proper, and attached to something else. Weird.

[grendeljd]

The car-pile representation of Josiah seems silly, but perhaps each one represents a wrecked life he caused (perhaps even literally in a car wreck)

Soo tempted to make an analogy between the 21-car pileup imagery and the direction of this book overall...

I seriously hate to say that. I want to enjoy this book so much more than I am, and I absolutely prefer to only post positive commentary or constructive criticism in general.

There are plenty of great elements to like about the book since Milligan took over. Punk Mambo. The new aspects of the Shadowman Loa mythos, it being cast out of a voodoo pantheon, the other Loa spirits like Tremble...

And this issue of End Times had many individually cool facets & tidbits - I liked seeing Darque on the post at the end, I thought Leggy was a really cool new character, and the further exploration of how the Deadside works (except the bit about losing years off Jacks life the longer he stays - was that a new arbitrary fact this issue, or am I being forgetful?)...

But the sum feels like less than the parts, somehow. I can't quite put a finger on why, but partly I think it's that a lot of the characterization feels forced. I just don't buy the Jack & Alyssa being in love part, even though it makes sense for it to have happened - I think I would have believed it more if it had occurred during JJ's run - there was an electric spark of instant energy & chemistry between them in the earliest issues that I liked, it felt like it would be a natural progression for them to fall in love. But that isn't being portrayed the same now. There is a lack of true emotional expression, it seems like we keep having to read the same status quo, wooden statements repeated every issue about how everyone is feeling about themselves & each other.

And again, I hate to criticize, but maybe the art is also not contributing enough to an effective conveyance of the storytelling here. I'm still onboard with no intention of dropping the book, but I feel like it is still struggling to fire on all cylinders.

Yeah, what the Canadian *SQUEE* said - I agree with all of that.

Gee, thanks! I think... ?

[lorddunlow]

The car-pile representation of Josiah seems silly, but perhaps each one represents a wrecked life he caused (perhaps even literally in a car wreck)

Soo tempted to make an analogy between the 21-car pileup imagery and the direction of this book overall...

I seriously hate to say that. I want to enjoy this book so much more than I am, and I absolutely prefer to only post positive commentary or constructive criticism in general.

There are plenty of great elements to like about the book since Milligan took over. Punk Mambo. The new aspects of the Shadowman Loa mythos, it being cast out of a voodoo pantheon, the other Loa spirits like Tremble...

And this issue of End Times had many individually cool facets & tidbits - I liked seeing Darque on the post at the end, I thought Leggy was a really cool new character, and the further exploration of how the Deadside works (except the bit about losing years off Jacks life the longer he stays - was that a new arbitrary fact this issue, or am I being forgetful?)...

But the sum feels like less than the parts, somehow. I can't quite put a finger on why, but partly I think it's that a lot of the characterization feels forced. I just don't buy the Jack & Alyssa being in love part, even though it makes sense for it to have happened - I think I would have believed it more if it had occurred during JJ's run - there was an electric spark of instant energy & chemistry between them in the earliest issues that I liked, it felt like it would be a natural progression for them to fall in love. But that isn't being portrayed the same now. There is a lack of true emotional expression, it seems like we keep having to read the same status quo, wooden statements repeated every issue about how everyone is feeling about themselves & each other.

And again, I hate to criticize, but maybe the art is also not contributing enough to an effective conveyance of the storytelling here. I'm still onboard with no intention of dropping the book, but I feel like it is still struggling to fire on all cylinders.

Yeah, what the Canadian *SQUEE* said - I agree with all of that.

Gee, thanks! I think... ?

[jmatt]

He met his father and clearly had no anger towards the man who was clearly trapped in the Deadside while Jack was a kid so there was no running away he was trapped that entire time. He clearly survived and decided not to come home after Jack made the choice.

Jaunty leads him to Josiah, who is guarding a doorway in/out (I forget which) to prevent Darque from going through. Josiah traps the Loa and gives Jack the choice of keeping it or going home free. Jack chooses to keep the Loa and save what's her name and Josiah gives him his Gris-Gris and the staff.

Ah, yes, that's it.

(except the bit about losing years off Jacks life the longer he stays - was that a new arbitrary fact this issue, or am I being forgetful?)...

Yeah, that's new, and I'm not sure it's a good story element. Part of Shadowman's gig is that he can travel to Deadside. This twist kinda puts a crimp in that.

[leonmallett]

An underwhelming issue for me on the whole, with elements that I thought were good and bad.

The good:
The art was fine for me, and the art-side of the storytelling was better for me than some of the RDLT stuff. De la Torre may be a 'better' artist in terms of technique, but I did find some of his stuff on Shadowman confusing in sequential story-telling terms.
The introduction of the one-legged keeper of the crossroads.
Expansion of the mythos.

The bad
The further forcing of hitherto unseen motivations upon Jack.
The apparent muddling of the books own continuity (this could still be explained next issue of course).
The reduction of the rapid acceleration of the Jack and Alyssa relationship to a plot device.
Punk Mambo; I still dislike the character.
That there is nothing in this mini series that could not have been covered as part of the ongoing series; the only justification is for marketing purposes/sales bump it seems, which in turn really does show that VEI's VALIANT Firsts initiative is really no different than what Marvel and DC do except in scale.

The indifferent
I was okay with the car wreck avatar of Josiah. Not sure it made sense except as a metaphor; I would rather have had something more motif based, but it could have been worse.

[kjjohanson]

The bad
That there is nothing in this mini series that could not have been covered as part of the ongoing series; the only justification is for marketing purposes/sales bump it seems, which in turn really does show that VEI's VALIANT Firsts initiative is really no different than what Marvel and DC do except in scale.

I don't think was ever included as part of the "Valiant FIrst" initiative. But I agree that there wasn't a good reason to make this a mini rather than part of the ongoing. There's a lot of backstory involved here that doesn't really offer a good jumping-on point for new readers.

[leonmallett]

The bad
That there is nothing in this mini series that could not have been covered as part of the ongoing series; the only justification is for marketing purposes/sales bump it seems, which in turn really does show that VEI's VALIANT Firsts initiative is really no different than what Marvel and DC do except in scale.

I don't think was ever included as part of the "Valiant FIrst" initiative. But I agree that there wasn't a good reason to make this a mini rather than part of the ongoing. There's a lot of backstory involved here that doesn't really offer a good jumping-on point for new readers.

Good point about the VALIANT First not including this - my error.

But as you say, not a great jump-on point by any stretch.

[p-s manowar]

Don't know why Valiant made this a mini series instead of continuing the ongoing, hope there's more to this series, the 1st issue didn't have any boost in numbers and I think its Valiants biggest mistake title.