Archer & Armstrong #19 Discussion

[Keith]

So I think the universal feeling on the first two entries into the Mission: Improbable crossover is that A&A #18 was overll very pleasing, and BS&HC #20 was less so.

I'm happy to report that A&A #19 swings things back onto the PLEASING side. Action packed, continues to advance both sides respective storylines, and has the great art we've come to expect from Pere Perez.

My only concern... is Archer getting TOO powerful? To the point where he can just be a Deus Ex Machina for any situation they find themselves in?

[dornwolf]

I found it pretty good as it finally confirmed Bloodshot has been play Kozol since the start basically, Charlie will always back his men over a suit, Kozal is a *SQUEE*, and Disciple is probably dead.

[bamaphilosopher]

My only concern... is Archer getting TOO powerful? To the point where he can just be a Deus Ex Machina for any situation they find themselves in?

I think this is a concern...they may have written themselves into a corner. If he can mimic any psiot ability, then the moment he sees Pete Stanchek or Harada, he'll be invincible. Surely his psiot mimicry wears out over time? I would hope so, because otherwise, he'll soon be able to do anything.

Yeah, they've kind of written themselves into a corner. I don't think they thought it through.

[greg]

I don't think they thought it through.

I doubt that... they seem to be six months ahead (at least) all the time.

[bygranddesign]

It wouldn't make my top 10 A&A issues ... but it was a fun read.

As usual Pere Perez delivered the goods (along with David Baron) ... and FVL gave us a few mini-surprises, nice humorous touches and some great action.

In previous discussions (especially when Archer #0 came out) many had the same concerns about Archer being too powerful.
I actually enjoyed seeing him use the different powers, it didn't feel out of place for the character and obviously gives him some huge(god-like) potential as he interacts with more Psiots. We already know he becomes an even more powerful figure in the future as he becomes the "Darwin of the soul" with many followers all the way to year 4000 (and into the Faraway) so its not unexpected that he turns into that Solar type-all powerful figure. I do think there will be ways to limiting his powers - Its assumed he needs to download these abilities each time he needs to use them - its probably possible to block the Akashic Records from him. I think at some point there will be a character or storyline that will explore the idea of limiting his power by cutting him off from the astral plane.

[bygranddesign]

I don't think they thought it through.

I doubt that... they seem to be six months ahead (at least) all the time.

yeah I agree, FVL has taken his time in progressing Archers abilities slowly over time. This is all part of the plan to make Archer this powerful character in the future ... and like I said in the previous post - Archer is still limited in that he has to download these abilities from the spiritual plane. So getting cut off from it - would be his kryptonite.

[greg]

Big laugh from me on the "paper towels" line...


GREAT MUPPET CAPER!

[bygranddesign]

I think Archer will save disciple

This may be where the "Darwin of the Soul" idea starts taking shape

In sort of the same way the nanites capture the soul of the dying soldier ... Archer will find a way of preventing the soul from leaving his body and jump starts his heart.

[BugsySig]

Definitely liked the issue. Much better than the BS/HC issue. Perez still kickin *SQUEE* on tHis book.

As for Archer's abilities, as bygranddesign mentioned VEI Archer downloads his abilities from the Akashic Plane unlike VH1 Archer who was a mimic. So my guess would be he is only capable of downloading the abilities that PRS has (or will have, since the Akashic Record includes future information, too) catalogued and replicated for HARD Corps. Basically he is downloading powers to his brain the way HARD Corps does, just via the Akashic Record instead of Lifeline.

[jmatt]

Epic. This title is unbelievable. FVL is a genius, Perez is great, loved everything about this issue. You never knew from one moment to the next what was gonna happen.

I have done a complete 180 about Archer and his ability to mimic psiot powers, and apologize for my prior moaning about it.

The characters at play (Archer, Armstrong, Bloodshot, HardCorps, PRS, Kozol, and the Sect), the relationships and motivations, who's double crossing who, Archer trying to save the life of a man that was just trying to kill him, Veronica double crossing Kozol, HC and Kozol double crossing each other, Aram spurning Bloodshot's overture, a reference to saving more psiot kids... wow, so much depth in a single issue. And humor!

Kozol just killed Disciple, seemingly. Palmer is gonna go berserk.

10/10. Just, wow.

[bamaphilosopher]

I don't think they thought it through.

I doubt that... they seem to be six months ahead (at least) all the time.

yeah I agree, FVL has taken his time in progressing Archers abilities slowly over time. This is all part of the plan to make Archer this powerful character in the future ... and like I said in the previous post - Archer is still limited in that he has to download these abilities from the spiritual plane. So getting cut off from it - would be his kryptonite.

Well, okay, but I think he's going to end up like that Peter Patrelli or whatever his name was in Heroes, who became so powerful they had to scale his power back. I mean, Archer can do pretty much anything?

Okay, if this is the plan, but I think it's possible they could write themselves into a corner, like the writers of Heroes did.

[bygranddesign]

a reference to saving more psiot kids...

This got me curious

We know Harada took Bloodshot's gen zero kids

Is Bloodshot talking about them? Does he not know that Harada got them? (drawing a blank on this .. might need to flip through the issues after Harbinger wars)

Or is he talking about some other kids that PRS has stashed away?

[jmatt]

Or is he talking about some other kids that PRS has stashed away?

And that's what makes it a great issue. Lots of cliff hanger details to be sorted out.

[mateo107]

Is Bloodshot talking about them? Does he not know that Harada got them?

yes, after Bloodshot was rescued from Harada he revealed he had been shown the gen zero kids and decided they were better off at the Harbinger Foundation than with PRS.

[pixierosa]

I don't think they've written themselves into a corner. Archer isn't all-powerful. While it wouldn't be interesting to me as a reader to have a character who can easily and quickly adapt superpowers for any situation, having someone with no control/no innate ability to properly harness that power would make things more interesting.

We already know he can download any information from the record, from mundane tasks (the best way to grill a steak to surgery to psiot powers). Having the ability to gain this knowledge or power doesn't mean that he is invulnerable, nor does it mean that he can't be overcome by the power itself. What if he suddenly gained telepathy? Or became an empath? These abilities would likely sideline him -- look at how long it took Pete to be able to function. Think of Carter, overwhelmed by his psiot ability. Think of King Midas. Golden touch gone astray. Archer may not be physically suited to handle these powers -- like the radiation psiot from Bloodshot. Gaining that power would likely kill him quickly.

What if he gained powers he wasn't intending? Like how Pete's brain will protect him without his being aware of it -- Archer may inadvertently download something he doesn't understand.

So the ability to draw upon other people's powers? It makes him as big of a danger to himself as it does to his enemies. I think Fred has had this planned for a long time and knows where it's going.

[SJS4]

My only concern... is Archer getting TOO powerful? To the point where he can just be a Deus Ex Machina for any situation they find themselves in?

Overall i enjoyed the issue, but this was the one lasting impression i got as well.

FVL has obviously been planning this right from the get go, but i am not as comforted by this as others posting here. We also know he is done writing the series after issue 24, so not sure i buy that he has long term plans for how to deal with Archer's infinite powers. To me it seems like he had it planned out just enough to reveal the powers, but won't be around to figure out all the consequences.

[apainter]

I don't think they've written themselves into a corner. Archer isn't all-powerful. While it wouldn't be interesting to me as a reader to have a character who can easily and quickly adapt superpowers for any situation, having someone with no control/no innate ability to properly harness that power would make things more interesting.

We already know he can download any information from the record, from mundane tasks (the best way to grill a steak to surgery to psiot powers). Having the ability to gain this knowledge or power doesn't mean that he is invulnerable, nor does it mean that he can't be overcome by the power itself. What if he suddenly gained telepathy? Or became an empath? These abilities would likely sideline him -- look at how long it took Pete to be able to function. Think of Carter, overwhelmed by his psiot ability. Think of King Midas. Golden touch gone astray. Archer may not be physically suited to handle these powers -- like the radiation psiot from Bloodshot. Gaining that power would likely kill him quickly.

What if he gained powers he wasn't intending? Like how Pete's brain will protect him without his being aware of it -- Archer may inadvertently download something he doesn't understand.

So the ability to draw upon other people's powers? It makes him as big of a danger to himself as it does to his enemies. I think Fred has had this planned for a long time and knows where it's going.

Not to mention there could be limits to his ability which could end up hurting him. HARD Corps members have a limited life-span because their minds were not designed to harness psiot powers. Archer may find he has a similar problem. Also, the Specialists showed that even "normal" psiot abilities can carry risks (which kind of falls in line with your point about Pete and Carter.)

Art

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Epic. This title is unbelievable. FVL is a genius, Perez is great, loved everything about this issue. You never knew from one moment to the next what was gonna happen.

10/10. Just, wow.

What he said...

[kjjohanson]

It's entirely possible that instead of Archer becoming prevented from reading the Akashic Records, that someone figures out a way of altering the records, or making them difficult to comprehend, requiring more time to access for more complicated abilities.

[String]

I don't think they've written themselves into a corner. Archer isn't all-powerful. While it wouldn't be interesting to me as a reader to have a character who can easily and quickly adapt superpowers for any situation, having someone with no control/no innate ability to properly harness that power would make things more interesting.

We already know he can download any information from the record, from mundane tasks (the best way to grill a steak to surgery to psiot powers). Having the ability to gain this knowledge or power doesn't mean that he is invulnerable, nor does it mean that he can't be overcome by the power itself. What if he suddenly gained telepathy? Or became an empath? These abilities would likely sideline him -- look at how long it took Pete to be able to function. Think of Carter, overwhelmed by his psiot ability. Think of King Midas. Golden touch gone astray. Archer may not be physically suited to handle these powers -- like the radiation psiot from Bloodshot. Gaining that power would likely kill him quickly.

What if he gained powers he wasn't intending? Like how Pete's brain will protect him without his being aware of it -- Archer may inadvertently download something he doesn't understand.

So the ability to draw upon other people's powers? It makes him as big of a danger to himself as it does to his enemies. I think Fred has had this planned for a long time and knows where it's going.

+1

I have no problem with Obie's mimic ability, up to and including psiot powers. I do, however, have an issue with him being able to use any new power flawlessly with no prior experience nor expectation. Giving him a form of handicap in which the new abilities may cause him eventual discomfort or confusion to the point where he may prove as big of a danger to himself as he would to his enemies would make for some better characterization.

Otherwise, a very fun, entertaining issue.

[jmatt]

It's entirely possible that instead of Archer becoming prevented from reading the Akashic Records, that someone figures out a way of altering the records, or making them difficult to comprehend, requiring more time to access for more complicated abilities.

Or perhaps now that there's some Bleeding Monkish-ness in the air with the possibility of multiple future outcomes, the record becomes scrambled... from what timeline is the record available to Archer?

Because not only does every present moment have an infinite number of future outcomes, but it also has an infinite number of pasts from which it could have arrived.

[greg]

Because not only does every present moment have an infinite number of future outcomes, but it also has an infinite number of pasts from which it arrived.

I'm going to try to forget that you haven't said that yet.

[jmatt]

Because not only does every present moment have an infinite number of future outcomes, but it also has an infinite number of pasts from which it arrived.

I'm going to try to forget that you haven't said that yet.

Said what? I just got here.

[lorddunlow]

Just read the issue and loved it.

The only thing I have to add is Archer's kryptonite was steady shown in issue #4. The Green Dragon Lamas could create Akashic record feedback in Archer that nearly incapacitated him. I could easily see others be even more adept at this and render Archer a helpless mess.

[leonmallett]

Another enjoyable issue that bridged well for me.

The writing and art both were really enjoyable, and for me this was a well-done crossover having read all 4 parts now.

I too have concerns re: Archer's power level, but the truth will be in the writing (I also retain concerns about the boost Gage gave to HARDCorps a while back regarding power sets, but that was more to do with logic and practical application than becoming overpowered).