Harbinger #15 Discussion

[greg]

Topic for discussion of Harbinger #15 - released 8/14
(I don't have a copy yet.)

[Keith]

Was a little apprehensive going into this issue after the Harbinger Wars event. Things seemed to be building up to a head for the throw down in Vegas, but now what?

I really appreciated seeing the Renegades have some downtime and relationships deepen. Pete and Torque posing down at the bodybuilding was hysterical! And the infamous Charlene/Kris smooch - my take - not going to be a relationship starting up, Charlene is just a wee bit more on the liberated side that way, and Kris was caught off guard but didnt mind it so much. Just another way she experienced letting her hair down. And Faith is clearly crushing on Pete...

Is this all a halucination? Sure kinda seems that way with all the weirdness experienced by members of the team. As for the ending... Yikes. Bad feeling here. Not sure what is going on, and I really hope it's not as bad as it looks, but yeaaaaaaaaaaah...

[Donovan]

WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED?!?!?! Best Harbinger yet!

[hunter_peterson]

This was *SQUEE* awesome! Crazy *SQUEE* *SQUEE*! I *SQUEE* LOVE IT!

Soooooooo pretty sure that this is a hallucination brought on by a Harbinger Foundation agent, probably called Sealion, who was sent after the Renegades at the end of Harbinger Wars. His power is probably to trap them in a "heaven" to pacify them, meant to make it easy for Harada to pick them up. Except Kris is waking everybody up by killing them, Inception style. Which is cool, because she's basically trapped in a bubble wherein she has to fight her friends to the death, like we talked about on the Dysart thread, where he said she would win. Pretty Batman of Kris.

That, or, you know... someone mind *SQUEE* Kris and she's actually murdering her friends. Can't quite tell yet. Which is why it is AWESOME!

EDIT: And I should mention, the characterisations and interactions here were absolutely GLORIOUS. This book slipped beside A&A for the top slot during Harbinger Wars, but this issue brought back everything that made it incredible and added a dose of mind screw! Love, love, LOVE!

[Donovan]

I didn't understand a WORD of what the teens were saying this issue, which made the dialogue seem very realistic to me...

[BugsySig]

Hoe. Lee. *SQUEE*.

I agree with Hunter on his theory...either that or this was brought on by Pete after the trauma of Las Vegas. The Sea Lion stuff was too coincidental, so there's obviously more going on. Can't wait to find out, though!

Love when this and A&A are out the same week. The two best books going.

[Blood of Heroes]

This was *SQUEE* awesome! Crazy *SQUEE* *SQUEE*! I *SQUEE* LOVE IT!

Soooooooo pretty sure that this is a hallucination brought on by a Harbinger Foundation agent, probably called Sealion, who was sent after the Renegades at the end of Harbinger Wars. His power is probably to trap them in a "heaven" to pacify them, meant to make it easy for Harada to pick them up. Except Kris is waking everybody up by killing them, Inception style. Which is cool, because she's basically trapped in a bubble wherein she has to fight her friends to the death, like we talked about on the Dysart thread, where he said she would win. Pretty Batman of Kris.

That, or, you know... someone mind *SQUEE* Kris and she's actually murdering her friends. Can't quite tell yet. Which is why it is AWESOME!

EDIT: And I should mention, the characterisations and interactions here were absolutely GLORIOUS. This book slipped beside A&A for the top slot during Harbinger Wars, but this issue brought back everything that made it incredible and added a dose of mind screw! Love, love, LOVE!

Interesting take.

My best guesses are:
1. Kris has PTSD and snapped. But this doesn't explain how ice *SQUEE* cold she was at the end.
2. There is a PRS submarine off the coast controlling her.

I like he hallucination idea better. Both of my scenarios leave Torque dead for reals.

[Blood of Heroes]

SHE BEAT A CRIPPLE TO DEATH WITH A SKATEBOARD!!!!

Jesus Christ!

[hunter_peterson]

People agree with me! Maybe I'M hallucinating...

Just popped back in to say I really like the idea that whoever's controlling them is doing it from a submarine and that the LITERAL sealions were terrifying in an "I-want-one-as-my-steed" way.

[swtor1091]

Great issue... I would give it a solid 4.5/5... Busy right now but I wrote a review on my what's what valiant page so check it out for a full review.... Link below

[bygranddesign]

This was *SQUEE* awesome! Crazy *SQUEE* *SQUEE*! I *SQUEE* LOVE IT!

Soooooooo pretty sure that this is a hallucination brought on by a Harbinger Foundation agent, probably called Sealion, who was sent after the Renegades at the end of Harbinger Wars. His power is probably to trap them in a "heaven" to pacify them, meant to make it easy for Harada to pick them up. Except Kris is waking everybody up by killing them, Inception style. Which is cool, because she's basically trapped in a bubble wherein she has to fight her friends to the death, like we talked about on the Dysart thread, where he said she would win. Pretty Batman of Kris.

That, or, you know... someone mind *SQUEE* Kris and she's actually murdering her friends. Can't quite tell yet. Which is why it is AWESOME!

EDIT: And I should mention, the characterisations and interactions here were absolutely GLORIOUS. This book slipped beside A&A for the top slot during Harbinger Wars, but this issue brought back everything that made it incredible and added a dose of mind screw! Love, love, LOVE!

yeah, i'm feelin' what your sayin'

but i'm so mind *SQUEE* right now i don't even know to think

this is much more heart breaking then the original

1) I care about Torque more this time around - much better character then the original
2) its like a 2nd character died - one of my favorite Kris - maybe she is being controlled or maybe she is just shell shocked from all the fighting she is just losing her mind

[bygranddesign]

SHE BEAT A CRIPPLE TO DEATH WITH A SKATEBOARD!!!!

Jesus Christ!

[Blood of Heroes]

2) its like a 2nd character died - one of my favorite Kris - maybe she is being controlled or maybe she is just shell shocked from all the fighting she is just losing her mind

Right. If this is for real, how does Kris, or the team, come back from this?

[Blood of Heroes]

People agree with me! Maybe I'M hallucinating...

Just popped back in to say I really like the idea that whoever's controlling them is doing it from a submarine and that the LITERAL sealions were terrifying in an "I-want-one-as-my-steed" way.

Maybe there are two forces at work here. One is trying to control them by keeping them happy and the other is trying to break them of the "spell".

[nonplayer]

I am not impressed one bit. But it does open a spot in the team. What a bit ch

[pixierosa]

People agree with me! Maybe I'M hallucinating...

Just popped back in to say I really like the idea that whoever's controlling them is doing it from a submarine and that the LITERAL sealions were terrifying in an "I-want-one-as-my-steed" way.

Maybe there are two forces at work here. One is trying to control them by keeping them happy and the other is trying to break them of the "spell".

Aside from the holy *SQUEE* moments, interesting perspective, isn't it? It seems to be a perfectly carefree day, but from who's perspective? Who's narrative is this in the beginning when we see them relaxing and playing and having a drum circle power dance (loooove that, by the way). In some ways, they behave as to what their personalities might dictate, but in other ways, it doesn't seem like them at all. For instance, I imagine Pete has never really had a silly moment in his life where he hammed it up -- and I guess that showing off his muscles is not something that I would expect him to be silly/cheesy about. Torque, yes, Pete - his humor probably wouldn't run to Jersey Shore. Even before Faith and her "droids" comment request, he used SW references to Tull as part of his sarcasm. I could see Kris having fun on a skateboard, but in a little bikini? She a feminist and would undoubtedly argue that she can wear wth she wants when she wants, but that's a little out of character for her.

It's like we're watching a dream sequence, and one that is a shared group dream. You do things in your dreams you wouldn't necessarily even recognize in a waking state as something you desire to do.

Again, who's the sandman here? We see Torque getting his dream of a metal show, Faith getting her fantasy of a date with Pete, Kris being free of her burdens (worry about her parent's health and finances, Harada, etc) & her inhibitions (hello bikini and sexual experimentation), Flamingo getting to party and be center stage. But what's Pete's dream? I know he's fond of Faith, but I don't think it was his perfect day to have a date with her. I say this because of HW - he would have been far more worried about her being a part of the fighting if there was more than friendship there. Like Harada with Griffon - he tried to prevent her from the PRS battle.

By all means, these kids should be experiencing PTSD from their whirlwind encounters with PRS, Harada and Bloodshot. They may have super abilities, but their mental processes are still human.

I am hoping that Kris' actions are her trying to "wake up" others from the fugue that they are ensnared in. If that is the case, is this a bit like the matrix where dying in the matrix means your body dies in real life? Otherwise, why would it matter in what order Kris attacked her team? She went for the easiest first.

Recurring themes: sea lions (I agree that this is related to whomever has them under the spell) and Kris' skateboard. It's everywhere, even at the car dealership.

Now, who do we know that can psychically project places and events into someone's mind? Besides Harada, who is busy with Bloodshot? Bleeding Monk? I vote for him as being the opposing force trying to wake the kids up. He would have no compunction about using Kris to "kill" her friends, no matter how much it damaged her mentally. She is, afterall, "lesser" than they in his and Harada's eyes.

Great book. I love head scratchers

[first_citizenx]

I'm new to Harbinger, but holy cow! What an issue!

I don't know what's going on or whose responsible, but I'll blame the goat since no one else is. All out war between the Renegades and Quantum & Woody

[grendeljd]

The regular cover to Harbinger #18 may be a giant clue to what just happened in this issue... or a giant red herring! I'm not spoiling it for anyone here, go look at November solicits somewhere else!

This issue was awesome. I agree with much of what pixierosa said - the characterizations are all off juuuust enough to make you really scratch your head over how much of the events were real and what was fabricated.

Can't wait for more!

[Blood of Heroes]

The regular cover to Harbinger #18 may be a giant clue to what just happened in this issue... or a giant red herring.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[bygranddesign]

great analysis Pixierosa!

Its a perfect day ... everyone getting what they want.

I think even for Peter - I think part of his perfect day is being care free and removing the chip off his shoulder ... and being with someone like Faith who truly believes in him and sees him as someone that could be great.

I am hoping that Kris' actions are her trying to "wake up" others from the fugue that they are ensnared in. If that is the case, is this a bit like the matrix where dying in the matrix means your body dies in real life? Otherwise, why would it matter in what order Kris attacked her team? She went for the easiest first.

yeah, but she is gleeful when killing Torque.
It makes me feel like something more menacing is in play here. I think he really is dead .. and I think someone "evil" is controlling Kris.

Recurring themes: sea lions (I agree that this is related to whomever has them under the spell) and Kris' skateboard. It's everywhere, even at the car dealership.

yeah, definitely lends to an hallucination/group dreaming aspect of what ever is going on. Kris is being controlled by the sea ..devoured by the monster sea lion and Torque sees a Heavy Metal band called Sea Lion. Also, strangely there is someone that yells attack during the concert scene that felt out of place .. like maybe reality and dreams are getting criss-crossed.

Bleeding Monk? I vote for him as being the opposing force trying to wake the kids up. He would have no compunction about using Kris to "kill" her friends, no matter how much it damaged her mentally. She is, afterall, "lesser" than they in his and Harada's eyes.

Bleeding Monk seems like he would have the juice to pull this off ... and we know he would enjoy being a puppet master but i'm not sure what his motivations or what side he is on in these conflicts. I think he likes setting up the conflict like in Harbinger Wars - but controlling Kris to kill would really be getting his hands dirty. I'm not sure he is that TYPE of "villain". I have a feeling we are being introduced to someone new ...

[blujay]

My opinion on this issue will be heavily shaped by the next one. I liked it a lot until the ending, which caught me off guard but also seemed too early for me

[tchalla8]

Part of me hopes it's real, so it doesn't seem like an obvious misdirection. The other part of me hates the idea of messing up Kris like this.

Weird, but I care more about what happened to Kris than what happened to Torque.

[bygranddesign]

The regular cover to Harbinger #18 may be a giant clue to what just happened in this issue... or a giant red herring! I'm not spoiling it for anyone here, go look at November solicits somewhere else!

ok ... couldn't resist and had to look

very cool cover

and good job Pixierosa looks like you were right

[pixierosa]

great analysis Pixierosa!

Its a perfect day ... everyone getting what they want.

I think even for Peter - I think part of his perfect day is being care free and removing the chip off his shoulder ... and being with someone like Faith who truly believes in him and sees him as someone that could be great.

I am hoping that Kris' actions are her trying to "wake up" others from the fugue that they are ensnared in. If that is the case, is this a bit like the matrix where dying in the matrix means your body dies in real life? Otherwise, why would it matter in what order Kris attacked her team? She went for the easiest first.

yeah, but she is gleeful when killing Torque.
It makes me feel like something more menacing is in play here. I think he really is dead .. and I think someone evil is controlling Kris.

Recurring themes: sea lions (I agree that this is related to whomever has them under the spell) and Kris' skateboard. It's everywhere, even at the car dealership.

yeah, definitely lends to an hallucination/group dreaming aspect of what ever is going on. Kris is being controlled by the sea ..devoured by the monster sea lion and Torque sees a Heavy Metal band called Sea Lion. Also, strangely there is someone that yells attack during the concert scene that felt out of place .. like maybe reality and dreams are getting criss-crossed.

Bleeding Monk? I vote for him as being the opposing force trying to wake the kids up. He would have no compunction about using Kris to "kill" her friends, no matter how much it damaged her mentally. She is, afterall, "lesser" than they in his and Harada's eyes.

Bleeding Monk seems like he would have to juice to pull this off ... and we know he would enjoy being a puppet master but i'm not sure what his motivations or what side he is on in these conflicts. I think he likes setting up the conflict like in Harbinger Wars - but controlling Kris to kill would really be getting his hands dirty. I'm not sure he is that TYPE of "villain". I have a feeling we are being introduced to someone new ...

I thought that "attack" scene was weird, too. I kept expecting more.

I took a peek at the November solicits. Oh boy. If the teaser and cover are truthful.... But then again, these are often misleading. No Joe in this issue, right?

Kris is being controlled. She isn't a cold-blooded killer. Torque really could be dead despite them being in a fugue state. He would be the weakest in terms of the others being capable of involuntarily protecting themselves with their talents. Maybe not so with Faith, but we know that she is still tapping into undiscovered talents. Once Torque's shell is down, he is incredibly vulnerable. Being injured and attacked might prevent him from bringing that shield back up.

Ever since I heard mention of Unity being launched in November and especially after seeing the solicits, I can't get this song out of my head:

"Sleep on and dream of Love
because it's the closest you will get to love
poor twisted child, so ugly, so ugly
poor twisted child, oh hug me, oh hug me
one November spawned a monster
in the shape of this child who later cried"

Dysart gave us an excellent twist. This is more horrific than them being a team that faces down other groups, even if the battles are terrible. The emotional scars from this ... I don't know if Kris will be able to overcome them. And how can any of them ever feel safe again, if someone is able to invade each of their thoughts like this? Get inside them, like Carter. (just had to throw that in there. That's how he made Hunter a ticking time bomb.)

[bygranddesign]

Huge Smiths and Morrissey fan and I love that song ... but Torque would totally think it was "gay"

poor torque