How long til VEI gets 5% market share?

[BrianT]

How long do you think it will take VEI's new Valiant line to hit 5% of the market share of units sold for three months out of any six month period? I realize this is incredibly early to be asking this question, since we know nothing of VEI's plans for the Valiant properties, but I figure that'd make it more fun once the results start coming in.

The significance of 5% is that it is one of the criteria for becoming a Premiere Publisher with Diamond Distributor, one of the advantages of which is placement in the front of Previews along with Dark Horse, DC, Image and Marvel.

For comparison's sake, DC and Marvel each have around 40-43% of the market, Image and Dark Horse each have around 3% and I think CrossGen only reached 5% a few times throughout its whole existence (not sure on that though).

I will guess 38 months. Assuming an initial launch of about 4 titles, I think it will take just over 3 years for VEI to grow their line and fanbase large enough to attain sufficient numbers to meet 5% on a regular basis.

[ManofTheAtom]

This is a great topic, and I hope you get tons of replies.

Personally, I'm gonna stay on the side of "who's stronger? Magnus or the Hulk?" and stay there, heh.

[k_c_collectibles]

I think it will be a bit of an uphill battle at first, but I think it is an attainable goal maybe 6 months out depending on the number of titles they have. For argument's sake lets say four (with any luck X-O, Bloodshot, Shadowman and Harbinger in my opinion ). Those titles are assuming that VEI does not get the rights to the Gold Key characters.

I think it can be done as long as quality stories are put out with good art and tight continuity - the thing that brought me to Valiant to begin with.

If that happens then I think all will fall into place.
Chris

[Heath]

Yes, it will be an uphill battle, and I think it will take a while. I anticipate the titles not being heavily ordered when they are first released. Then, if the quality matches that of pre-Unity, as word of mouth spreads and buzz is generated, sales will start jumping. But even then, it will be a long uphill climb because there's so much bad history with both readers and retailers.

I think there will be three different general reactions to a Valiant relaunch - 1) us fans that will buy it from the beginning, 2) former fans still sore from Acclaim who won't pay it much attention, and 3) the majority of comic readers who will laugh it off and predict doom from the beginning.

[Chiclo]

38 months?

Rather an odd figure.

Where did you come up with that?

[BrianT]

38 months?

Rather an odd figure.

Where did you come up with that?

More or less that it took CrossGen a couple years to get close and VEI will hopefully learn from CG's mistake of expanding too early, so they'll take a little longer and I didn't want to give it an even 12 month interval (12, 24, 36, 48, etc) cause I felt it was unlikely to fall right on the annual anniversary. Coupled that with my knowledge of the industry (for example The Walking Dead's slow rise to over 20K monthly sales) and a bit of optimism and that's what I went with. Yeah, I know, not real scientific.

Frankly, they can probably do it much sooner, if they can launch with a strong initial 4 core titles. 4 titles in the 10-15K range will do a great deal in hitting that mark (assuming the market is roughly the same size as it is now, although it's likely to be bigger). It'll just take a little bit of time (6months-1 year) to get the titles to that point. Again, optimistically.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

For the record, it took Valiant nearly 3 YEARS of publishing (counting the 1990 publications) to reach 5% of the market share.

[Rufusharley]

At Valiants peak, what was their market share?

[ManofTheAtom]

They became the 3rd largest publisher in the US or somesuch.

[andrew]

never. the company will fold long before they get %5

[Second_Death]

2 years if they make it that far. VEI would probably have the advantage of a slightly larger initial fan base than the original company did with just the two GK characters.

[Rufusharley]

They became the 3rd largest publisher in the US or somesuch.

But was it 7% to Marvel/DC's respective 40%ish, or was it something more like 15% to Marvel/DC?

[tarheelmarine]

5%?! That is a lot of space in today's market, and with the quality products coming out by the other publishers, it will take a susbsantial amount of time.

[ManofTheAtom]

They became the 3rd largest publisher in the US or somesuch.

But was it 7% to Marvel/DC's respective 40%ish, or was it something more like 15% to Marvel/DC?

No idea.

[BrianT]

They became the 3rd largest publisher in the US or somesuch.

But was it 7% to Marvel/DC's respective 40%ish, or was it something more like 15% to Marvel/DC?

I realize this was after Valiant's peak but in September '96, Marvel and DC had 72% unit share and 67% dollar share. In Sept '06 they had 82% unit share and 86% dollar share. In '96, Image was the #3 publisher. Acclaim was #19.

Source: Comics Buyers Guide #1625

[ManofTheAtom]

Check this out

SEPTEMBER 1996

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1671

206 Grackle 1 $2.95 Acclaim 12,600
215 Sliders Special 2 $3.95 Acclaim 11,500
263 Gravediggers 3 $2.95 Acclaim 6,200
281 All New Armed & Dangerous 4 $2.95 Acclaim 5,200
321 All New Bad Eggs 4 $2.95 Acclaim 3,500

Acclaim 0.48%

OCTOBER 1996

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1673

102 X-O Manowar Vol. 2 1 $2.50 Acclaim 33,400
231 Grackle 2 $2.95 Acclaim 9,300
261 Gravediggers 4 $2.95 Acclaim 6,300

Acclaim 0.51%

NOVEMBER 1996

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1674

96 Shadowman 1 $2.50 Acclaim 37,300
127 Ninjak 1 $2.50 Acclaim 30,300
138 X-O Manowar 2 $2.50 Acclaim 27,500
223 Sliders Special 2 $3.95 Acclaim 10,900
247 Grackle 3 $2.95 Acclaim 9,000

Acclaim 1.09%

DECEMBER 1996

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1675

130 Shadowman 2 $2.50 Acclaim 27,300
143 X-O Manowar 3 $2.50 Acclaim 25,700
153 Turok 1 $3.95 Acclaim 22,800
161 Ninjak 2 $2.50 Acclaim 21,500
172 Troublemakers 1 $2.50 Acclaim 20,100
253 The Grackle 4 $2.95 Acclaim 8,100
277 Armed and Dangerous: When Irish Eyes are Dying 1 $2.95 Acclaim 5,700

Acclaim 1.64%

JANUARY 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1670

123 Shadowman 3 $2.50 Acclaim 24,300
132 X-O Manowar 4 $2.50 Acclaim 22,000
134 Magnus Robot Fighter 1 $2.50 Acclaim 21,600
145 Man of the Atom 1 $3.95 Acclaim 19,100
157 Ninjak 3 $2.50 Acclaim 16,900
174 Troublemakers 2 $2.50 Acclaim 13,900
178 Quantum Leap 1 $2.50 Acclaim 13,300 (it never actually came out)
256 Armed & Dangerous: Irish Eyes 2 $2.95 Acclaim 5,100
270 Punx Special 1 $2.50 Acclaim 4,600

Acclaim 1.99%

FEBRUARY 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1669

126 Shadowman 4 $2.50 Acclaim 21,100
134 X-O Manowar 5 $2.50 Acclaim 19,600
137 Eternal Warriors 1 $3.95 Acclaim 18,900
149 Magnus Robot Fighter 2 $2.50 Acclaim 16,000
154 Quantum & Woody 1 $2.50 Acclaim 13,800
161 Ninjak 4 $2.50 Acclaim 13,000
167 Troublemakers 3 $2.50 Acclaim 12,200
178 Quantum Leap 2 $2.50 Acclaim 11,100 (it didn't come out)
232 Armed & Dangerous: Irish Eyes 3 $2.95 Acclaim 4,800

Acclaim 2.13%

MARCH 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1668

122 Trinity Angels 1 $2.50 Acclaim 23,100
142 Bloodshot 1 $2.50 Acclaim 19,800
146 X-O Manowar 6 $2.50 Acclaim 19,000
154 Shadowman 5 $2.50 Acclaim 18,200
168 Magnus Robot Fighter 3 $2.50 Acclaim 15,100
178 Turok Quarterly: Spring Break in the Lost Land $3.95 Acclaim 12,600
185 Ninjak 5 $2.50 Acclaim 11,800
186 Troublemakers 4 $2.50 Acclaim 11,500
193 Quantum & Woody 2 $2.50 Acclaim 10,400

Acclaim 2.08%

APRIL 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1638

142 X-O Manowar 7 $2.50 Acclaim 18,900
147 Shadowman 6 $2.50 Acclaim 17,600
149 Operation Stormbringer $3.95 Acclaim 17,500
154 Turok Timewalker 1 $2.50 Acclaim 15,600
157 Trinity Angels 2 $2.50 Acclaim 15,600
160 Magnus Robot Fighter 4 $2.50 Acclaim 14,700
166 Bloodshot 2 $2.50 Acclaim 14,100
178 Troublemakers 5 $2.50 Acclaim 11,700
182 Ninjak 6 $2.50 Acclaim 11,400
187 Quantum Leap Special $3.95 Acclaim 11,100 (it didn't come out)
200 Quantum & Woody 3 $2.50 Acclaim 9,700
214 Waterworld 1 $2.50 Acclaim 8,200

Acclaim 2.22%

MAY 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1639

144 X-O Manowar 8 $2.50 Acclaim 17,700
154 Shadowman 7 $2.50 Acclaim 15,500
165 Turok/Timewalker 2 $2.50 Acclaim 14,000
166 Dr. Tomorrow 1 $2.50 Acclaim 13,800
167 Magnus Robot Fighter 5 $2.50 Acclaim 13,600
170 Trinity Angels 3 $2.50 Acclaim 13,500
177 Bloodshot 3 $2.50 Acclaim 12,500
178 Eternal Warriors Digital Alchemy $3.95 Acclaim 12,200
187 Troublemakers 6 $2.50 Acclaim 10,900
192 Ninjak 7 $2.50 Acclaim 10,500
198 Quantum & Woody 4 $2.50 Acclaim 9,800
230 Waterworld 2 $2.50 Acclaim 6,600

Acclaim 2.43%

JUNE 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1640

147 X-O Manowar 9 $2.50 Acclaim 17,000
156 Shadowman 8 $2.50 Acclaim 14,000
162 Trinity Angels 4 $2.50 Acclaim 13,100
165 Turok Quarterly: Red Path $3.95 Acclaim 12,900
168 Magnus Robot Fighter 6 $2.50 Acclaim 12,700
177 Bloodshot 4 $2.50 Acclaim 11,400
178 Dr. Tomorrow 2 $2.50 Acclaim 11,300
188 Troublemakers 7 $2.50 Acclaim 10,300
197 Quantum & Woody 5 $2.50 Acclaim 9,700
198 Ninjak 8 $2.50 Acclaim 9,700
249 Waterworld 3 $2.50 Acclaim 5,400

Acclaim 1.99%

JULY 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=812

156 Revelations $3.95 Acclaim 16,100
159 X-O Manowar 10 $2.50 Acclaim 15,500
173 Shadowman 9 $2.50 Acclaim 12,500
174 Trinity Angels 5 $2.50 Acclaim 12,400
179 Magnus Robot Fighter 7 $2.50 Acclaim 11,700
193 Bloodshot 5 $2.50 Acclaim 10,400
194 Dr. Tomorrow 3 $2.50 Acclaim 10,400
203 Quantum & Woody 6 $2.50 Acclaim 9,700
205 Troublemakers 8 $2.50 Acclaim 9,600
214 Ninjak 9 $2.50 Acclaim 9,100
283 Waterworld 4 $2.50 Acclaim 4,500

Acclaim 1.75%

AUGUST 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=853

166 X-O Manowar 11 $2.50 Acclaim 14,400
180 Trinity Angels 6 $2.50 Acclaim 11,800
182 Eternal Warriors Archer & Armstrong $3.95 Acclaim 11,500
185 Shadowman 10 $2.50 Acclaim 11,300
188 Magnus Robot Fighter 8 $2.50 Acclaim 10,800
196 Dr. Tomorrow 4 $2.50 Acclaim 10,000
199 Quantum & Woody 7 $2.50 Acclaim 9,800
204 Bloodshot 6 $2.50 Acclaim 9,600
206 Troublemakers 9 $2.50 Acclaim 9,400
218 Ninjak 10 $2.50 Acclaim 8,500

Acclaim 1.34% 1.46%

SEPTEMBER 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=857

163 Solar: Hell on Earth 1 $2.50 Acclaim 14,100
167 X-O Manowar 12 $2.50 Acclaim 13,400
182 Trinity Angels 7 $2.50 Acclaim 11,200
188 Turok: Child of Blood $3.95 Acclaim 10,900
194 Quantum & Woody 8 $2.50 Acclaim 10,200
195 Shadowman 11 $2.50 Acclaim 10,100
196 Magnus Robot Fighter 9 $2.50 Acclaim 10,000
199 Dr. Tomorrow 5 $2.50 Acclaim 9,300
204 Bloodshot 7 $2.50 Acclaim 8,900
210 Troublemakers 10 $2.50 Acclaim 8,500
215 Ninjak 11 $2.50 Acclaim 7,900

Acclaim 1.45% 1.56%

OCTOBER 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=858

178 Master Darque $3.95 Acclaim 13,100
180 X-O Manowar 13 $2.50 Acclaim 12,400
182 Solar: Hell on Earth 2 $2.50 Acclaim 11,900
192 Trinity Angels 8 $2.50 Acclaim 10,500
193 Quantum & Woody 9 $2.50 Acclaim 10,300
197 Magnus Robot Fighter 10 $2.50 Acclaim 9,500
200 Shadowman 12 $2.50 Acclaim 9,300
206 Dr. Tomorrow 6 $2.50 Acclaim 8,900
208 Bloodshot 8 $2.50 Acclaim 8,700
212 Troublemakers 11 $2.50 Acclaim 8,200
223 Ninjak 12 $2.50 Acclaim 7,300

Acclaim 1.15%

NOVEMBER 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1011

172 X-O Manowar 14 $2.50 Acclaim 11,600
176 Solar: Hell on Earth 3 $2.50 Acclaim 11,000
187 Quantum & Woody 10 $2.50 Acclaim 10,100
188 Trinity Angels 9 $2.50 Acclaim 9,900
195 Magnus Robot Fighter 11 $2.50 Acclaim 8,800
196 Eternal Warriors: Blackworks $3.95 Acclaim 8,800
197 Shadowman 13 $2.50 Acclaim 8,700
202 Dr. Tomorrow 7 $2.50 Acclaim 8,500
209 Troublemakers 12 $2.50 Acclaim 8,000
211 Bloodshot 9 $2.50 Acclaim 8,000

Acclaim 1.55% 1.75%

DECEMBER 1997

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1012

191 Darque Passages 1 $2.50 Acclaim 13,900
204 X-O Manowar 15 $2.50 Acclaim 11,000
208 Solar Hell On Earth 4 $2.50 Acclaim 10,700
212 Quantum & Woody 11 $2.50 Acclaim 10,100
216 Turok Tales Of The Lost Land $2.50 Acclaim 9,600
217 Trinity Angels 10 $2.50 Acclaim 9,500
225 Magnus Robot Fighter 12 $2.50 Acclaim 8,200
226 Doctor Tomorrow 8 $2.50 Acclaim 8,200
228 Shadowman 14 $2.50 Acclaim 8,100
234 Bloodshot 10 $2.50 Acclaim 7,700
237 Troublemakers 13 $2.50 Acclaim 7,600

Acclaim 1.17% 1.14%

JANUARY 1998

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1562

163 Harbinger Acts Of God $3.95 Acclaim 11,600
165 Darque Passages 2 $2.50 Acclaim 11,400
169 X-O Manowar 16 $2.50 Acclaim 10,900
173 Cerebus 226 $2.25 Aardvark-Vanaheim 10,300
174 Quantum & Woody 12 $2.50 Acclaim 10,000
182 Trinity Angels 11 $2.50 Acclaim 9,000
190 Magnus Robot Fighter 13 $2.50 Acclaim 7,700
192 Doctor Tomorrow 9 $2.50 Acclaim 7,600
194 Shadowman 15 $2.50 Acclaim 7,400
195 Bloodshot 11 $2.50 Acclaim 7,400
200 Troublemakers 14 $2.50 Acclaim 7,100

Acclaim 1.41%

FEBRUARY 1998

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1563

169 Quantum & Woody 13 $2.50 Acclaim 10,100
172 Darque Passages 3 $2.50 Acclaim 9,900
176 X-O Manowar 17 $2.50 Acclaim 9,600
180 Shadowman 16 $2.50 Acclaim 8,500
185 Trinity Angels 12 $2.50 Acclaim 8,200
194 Magnus Robot Fighter 14 $2.50 Acclaim 7,100
199 Doctor Tomorrow 10 $2.50 Acclaim 7,000
201 Bloodshot 12 $2.50 Acclaim 6,700
202 Troublemakers 15 $2.50 Acclaim 6,500

From this month on, Acclaim is no longer listed in the market share chart.

MARCH 1998

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1564

168 Turok 1 $2.50 Acclaim 12,800
181 Quantum & Woody 14 $2.50 Acclaim 10,700
191 Darque Passages 4 $2.50 Acclaim 9,500
194 X-O Manowar 18 $2.50 Acclaim 9,300
209 Eternal Warriors Mog $3.95 Acclaim 7,200
211 Doctor Tomorrow 11 $2.50 Acclaim 7,000
212 Magnus Robot Fighter 15 $2.50 Acclaim 7,000
213 Shadowman 17 $2.50 Acclaim 6,900
223 Bloodshot 13 $2.50 Acclaim 6,400
224 Troublemakers 16 $2.50 Acclaim 6,400

APRIL 1998

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1565

164 Quantum & Woody 15 $2.50 Acclaim 11,500
178 Turok 2 $2.50 Acclaim 10,000
179 Goat Haedus Special Event $3.95 Acclaim 9,900
182 X-O Manowar 19 $2.50 Acclaim 9,200
188 Concrete Jungle Legend Of The Black Lion 1 $2.50 Acclaim 8,700
202 Doctor Tomorrow 12 $2.50 Acclaim 7,200
205 Shadowman 18 $2.50 Acclaim 6,900
206 Magnus Robot Fighter 16 $2.50 Acclaim 6,800
213 Bloodshot 14 $2.50 Acclaim 6,300
214 Troublemakers 17 $2.50 Acclaim 6,300

MAY 1998

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1566

168 Quantum & Woody 16 $2.50 Acclaim 11,100
179 Turok 3 $2.50 Acclaim 9,200
184 X-O Manowar 20 $2.50 Acclaim 8,500
211 Concrete Jungle: Legend of the Black Lion 2 $2.50 Acclaim 6,600 (it didn't come out)
213 Shadowman 19 $2.50 Acclaim 6,300
214 Magnus: Robot Fighter 17 $2.50 Acclaim 800
220 Troublemakers 18 $2.50 Acclaim 6,100
226 Bloodshot 15 $2.50 Acclaim 5,700

JUNE 1998

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1567

168 Quantum & Woody 17 $2.50 Acclaim 10,900
184 Turok 4 $2.50 Acclaim 8,600
187 X-O Manowar 21 $2.50 Acclaim 8,300
207 Eternal Warriors Immortal Enemy $3.95 Acclaim 6,600
217 Magnus Robot Fighter 18 $2.50 Acclaim 6,000
218 Shadowman 20 $2.50 Acclaim 5,800
221 Troublemakers 19 $2.50 Acclaim 5,500
222 Bloodshot 16 $2.50 Acclaim 5,500
236 Concrete Jungle Legend of the Black Lion 3 $2.50 Acclaim 4,900 (it didn't come out)

I don't see much point in searching for the comics that came after, like NIO, Deadside, Q&W, Shadowman Vol. 3 and Unity 2000, but if anyone wants to, you can find the links for the sales charts here

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695

[BrianT]

Well I think that shows that you can climb fast and fall even faster.

[IanAlexavier]

Oh man,,,, a shot of reality., thats what this is... makes me feel kinda sad.. not sure if DNV will even make it... makes me think it will be the Once and Forever Lost Valiant.. (OFLV )


The only way they will make it is if they start small and build gradual. I think when Valiant started to fllod the market is when I started thinking.. "No, please no, dont do it.. cmon guys.. dont do it."

I remember thinking,"I would love to stick to 2 or 3 Valiant titles each week." Oh it would have been so good...

I think the average Joe comic readers weekly comic allowance needs to be considered. If DNV is going to have the same tight continuity (and I hope they do) they it would make sense for comic readers to want to pick up the whole lot of books, if they are good.

Cmon, reading comics is like an addiction, we all get that happy feeling, wanting to escape reality and get some eye candy to look at.

Like any addiction, people have only so much energy to put into it before it becomes a financial problem. Its key to start small and not get too big. That will ensure success!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

At Valiants peak, what was their market share?

Roughly 17%.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Well I think that shows that you can climb fast and fall even faster.

Not really. Acclaim was an odd duck in comics publishing. They bought a well established (albeit, long since revered) comic line lock, stock, and barrel, and as such, already had a start out of the gate. People already KNEW who all these characters were, even if they had fallen heavily out of favor, they were still being published less than a year or two prior, so the name/brand recognition was very high.

Valiant, when it started, (specifically the superhero line) did NOT buy "Dell Comics"....they bought the rights to THREE characters, and characters that had not been published for nearly 10 years (and even then, only in a handful of issues.) The same thing (sort of) happened with Marvel 30 years prior: they had a small handful of established characters that hadn't seen print in anything but a small handful of issues for nearly a decade...

Only they didn't start OUT with the established properties; they started with original concepts to match what DC was doing crosstown. It was only after the original ideas became succesful that they brought in the established characters (FF #4, Avengers #4, X-Men #10, and whatever the Golden Age Human Torch first appeared in...odd that I don't know that off the top of my head...oh well), and integrated them into the "new universe" (to coin an oft-used phrase.)

So....it took Marvel about 7 years (1961-1968) to really begin to challenge DC's (not to mention Dell, Gold Key, etc) market share, and took 10 years, to 1971, to topple DC from the top spot.

It took Valiant only 3 to become #3, but they never seriously challenged DC's numbers, much less Marvel's.

The stars were aligned, though, and they COULD have.....had everything worked out.

[Rufusharley]

I hope the stars align again someday.

[leonmallett]

The crucial period in my mind is not the time to achieve market share, but the first 6 months (assuming it ever gets off the ground). The reason I say this is that I am sure I have read that after about 6 months or so sales often drop off on new titles, hence the critical time to establish enough of a foothold to make longer term commitment to the project of VALIANT a viable option.

[Zool]

I can claim no knowledge of the sales side of the comics industry but for any "continuity" outside the big two to reach a 5% market share anytime soon seems, well, very difficult.

Even assuming good sales (which we shall call, optimisticly what? 15/20K, putting the books around the 100/120 top sellers mark), how many monthly books would that have to be anyway?

I'm with Leon (Brits unite), the first 6 months is key time in gauging the market, allowing the 'newness' of a title to wear off, and word of mouth to spread.

Great thread by the way, and great work MotA on the figures.

[leonmallett]

We'll start a Brit coalition Zool, take over the boards. And every brit will have a Shadowman avatar to show our allegiance!

The 5% as you say sounds a very optimistic idea. I was under the impression that Crossgen had reasonably deep pockets, but look at what happened to them. I want to see a new VALIANT, but still remain wary. to make comparisons to early VALIANT success is also very difficult due to the climate at the time and the speculator boom.

[tarheelmarine]

We'll start a Brit coalition Zool, take over the boards. And evry brit will have a Shadowman avatar to show our allegiance!

The 5% as you say sounds a very optimistic idea. I was under the impression that Crossgen had reasonably deep pockets, but look at what happened to them. I want to see a new VALIANT, but still remain wary. to make comparisons to early VALIANT success is also very difficult due to the climate at the time and the speculator boom.

Aah, the limey's never fail to make me laugh. It's good having friends like these.