Book of Death: Legends of the Geomancer

[ilzuccone]

[magnusr]

Interesting comment on Facebook re: DCBS on this. Now this is a poster reporting what DCBS said, so read into that what you will

From my experience I would say DCBS is throwing VEI under the bus to cover for their own greed. Either way, it's bad for VEI.

/Magnus

[ilzuccone]

how much is the book going to cost me? pricey books are not my kind of collecting.

i also don't enjoy "chasing."

[leonmallett]

...And if you will read everything from them except this book, your world will not end. And if you think that it will, then go ahead and quit, because you have bigger problems, it seems. And you are punishing yourself more than you are punishing VEI by quitting, so I don't expect anyone to do it.

Excuse me Ed; please find where I have said I would quit over this? thanks. I point that out since you are responding to my quote.

I did not mean YOU specifically but rather YOU as a group (you know who you are).

I promised not to post in this thread anymore. This is like giving up smoking.

Again use of 'YOU' with a quote from me does not help suggest that you are not referring to me. Maybe 'THEM' would be better instead, unless you are lumping all dissenting voices together?

[kjjohanson]

...And if you will read everything from them except this book, your world will not end. And if you think that it will, then go ahead and quit, because you have bigger problems, it seems. And you are punishing yourself more than you are punishing VEI by quitting, so I don't expect anyone to do it.

Excuse me Ed; please find where I have said I would quit over this? thanks. I point that out since you are responding to my quote.

I did not mean YOU specifically but rather YOU as a group (you know who you are).

I promised not to post in this thread anymore. This is like giving up smoking.

Again use of 'YOU' with a quote from me does not help suggest that you are not referring to me. Maybe 'THEM' would be better instead, unless you are lumping all dissenting voices together?

If all dissenting voices are being lumped together, I don't see how "you are punishing yourself more than you are punishing VEI by quitting," makes any sense. My position is along the lines of Dunlow's (I think it was him), who mentioned that if it was going to be made difficult to be a reader of everything, then he wasn't going to bother trying to be. That doesn't mean that I would drop everything, just the things that I wasn't enjoying as much as I potentially would a book from another publisher that I don't have the time to read.

That's my personal objection to the promotion. More objectively, I think the promotion is going to end up being a bad idea because there's going to be some disparity in what fans have to pay if they want to read the series. I imagine there are a decent numbers of readers who won't even be aware of this book until it is released, and wouldn't have had the opportunity to speak to their LCS to arrange something to ensure that their demand for the book is met. I think there's going to be certain amount of antagonism created by the promotion, either against VEI, or against one's LCS, when some people find out later that they have to pay a fortune just to read a new release.

[leonmallett]

...And if you will read everything from them except this book, your world will not end. And if you think that it will, then go ahead and quit, because you have bigger problems, it seems. And you are punishing yourself more than you are punishing VEI by quitting, so I don't expect anyone to do it.

Excuse me Ed; please find where I have said I would quit over this? thanks. I point that out since you are responding to my quote.

I did not mean YOU specifically but rather YOU as a group (you know who you are).

I promised not to post in this thread anymore. This is like giving up smoking.

Again use of 'YOU' with a quote from me does not help suggest that you are not referring to me. Maybe 'THEM' would be better instead, unless you are lumping all dissenting voices together?

If all dissenting voices are being lumped together, I don't see how "you are punishing yourself more than you are punishing VEI by quitting," makes any sense. My position is along the lines of Dunlow's (I think it was him), who mentioned that if it was going to be made difficult to be a reader of everything, then he wasn't going to bother trying to be. That doesn't mean that I would drop everything, just the things that I wasn't enjoying as much as I potentially would a book from another publisher that I don't have the time to read.

That's my personal objection to the promotion. More objectively, I think the promotion is going to end up being a bad idea because there's going to be some disparity in what fans have to pay if they want to read the series. I imagine there are a decent numbers of readers who won't even be aware of this book until it is released, and wouldn't have had the opportunity to speak to their LCS to arrange something to ensure that their demand for the book is met. I think there's going to be certain amount of antagonism created by the promotion, either against VEI, or against one's LCS, when some people find out later that they have to pay a fortune just to read a new release.

Agreed.

But in addition to the awareness issue, is the fact that distribution arrangements do differ around the world, which is really what disenfranchises some readers. As I pointed out on the previous page, if supply to those markets is less than the USA proportionately, even with similar proportionate demand, that effectively forces some to look to buy that book overseas, incurring additional cost, over and above the retailer mark-up. Which creates a two-class system of customer.

[greg]

Just a reminder... Fred Pierce said this is like Harbinger #0 Pink. How much did it cost to read Harbinger #0 Pink when it was released in the 1990s?
$100+ if you bought it from a dealer.
At least $12 (plus taking scissors to Harbinger #1-#6) if you got it by coupons.
There were less than 7,000 people who could read it at a time that Valiant sold 150,000 books a month.

Is the Legends of the Geomancer $100+?
Will you need to cut up six other Valiant books to get it?

And finally... did Harbinger #0 Pink destroy Valiant?

[leonmallett]

Just a reminder... Fred Pierce said this is like Harbinger #0 Pink. How much did it cost to read Harbinger #0 Pink when it was released in the 1990s?
$100+ if you bought it from a dealer.
At least $12 (plus taking scissors to Harbinger #1-#6) if you got it by coupons.
There were less than 7,000 people who could read it at a time that Valiant sold 150,000 books a month.

Is the Legends of the Geomancer $100+?
Will you need to cut up six other Valiant books to get it?

And finally... did Harbinger #0 Pink destroy Valiant?

greg, that does not really acknowledge that things do work differently for customers outside the USA. Why? Because distribution operates differently in different territories, something VEI themselves have acknowledged. Which for me, is something that those laudably supporting this initiative haven't really acknowledged as being arguably intrinsically unfair.

I will gladly match what anyone else is paying for LotG, but I am willing to bet I end up paying more from the same sources simply due to likely having to rely on USA sources. Same price for the book. Much higher cost after that. There lies the potential discrepancy, especially as how this will work in the UK is not yet clear (how can I say that? Trust me I can).

[jeremycoe]

Maybe I'm a little dense on the issue of international distribution, but if I want to purchase something from Britain here in the USA I have to go to a specialty shop and pay quite a premium - if I can even find it. Is it really unfair that this happens with comics?

I honestly am not trying to argue with this point, just curious regarding the differences.

[kjjohanson]

Just a reminder... Fred Pierce said this is like Harbinger #0 Pink. How much did it cost to read Harbinger #0 Pink when it was released in the 1990s?
$100+ if you bought it from a dealer.
At least $12 (plus taking scissors to Harbinger #1-#6) if you got it by coupons.
There were less than 7,000 people who could read it at a time that Valiant sold 150,000 books a month.

Is the Legends of the Geomancer $100+?
Will you need to cut up six other Valiant books to get it?

And finally... did Harbinger #0 Pink destroy Valiant?

I didn't own a copy of Harbinger #0 Pink until just recently. So I read the issue by purchasing the alternate reading option that was offered, the 0 issue included with the trade paperback (which I had to pick up to read issue #4, which I missed when it hit the stands).

As of now, there is no indication that there will be an alternate way to read this book (legally). Also, just because something has been done before doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[kjjohanson]

Maybe I'm a little dense on the issue of international distribution, but if I want to purchase something from Britain here in the USA I have to go to a specialty shop and pay quite a premium - if I can even find it. Is it really unfair that this happens with comics?

I honestly am not trying to argue with this point, just curious regarding the differences.

As I am following the international issue, the promotion isn't as risk-free for overseas stores because the returnability factor involves shipping books back overseas at a considerable expense. Therefore, shops are less likely to jump on the promotion, leaving the alternate option for the consumer of buying a book online from an overseas vendor, which entails paying the international shipping costs on top of the premium for the book. That's how I understand it as it has been presented, although I can't speak to the veracity of the dynamics for international LCSs.

[jeremycoe]

Maybe I'm a little dense on the issue of international distribution, but if I want to purchase something from Britain here in the USA I have to go to a specialty shop and pay quite a premium - if I can even find it. Is it really unfair that this happens with comics?

I honestly am not trying to argue with this point, just curious regarding the differences.

As I am following the international issue, the promotion isn't as risk-free for overseas stores because the returnability factor involves shipping books back overseas at a considerable expense. Therefore, shops are less likely to jump on the promotion, leaving the alternate option for the consumer of buying a book online from an overseas vendor, which entails paying the international shipping costs on top of the premium for the book. That's how I understand it as it has been presented, although I can't speak to the veracity of the dynamics for international LCSs.

I understand that part of it, I'm just not sure why it being difficult to get an American comic in Britain is different than it being difficult to get a British product in the USA.

[magnusr]

I understand that part of it, I'm just not sure why it being difficult to get an American comic in Britain is different than it being difficult to get a British product in the USA.

In the latter case, one product is shipped once over the Atlantic. In the case of returnable comics there is a worst-case scenario of 24 products being shipped twice over the Atlantic, on top of the one comic shipped one-way

/Magnus

[leonmallett]

Maybe I'm a little dense on the issue of international distribution, but if I want to purchase something from Britain here in the USA I have to go to a specialty shop and pay quite a premium - if I can even find it. Is it really unfair that this happens with comics?

I honestly am not trying to argue with this point, just curious regarding the differences.

We already pay a premium on comics, from speciality shops and have done for years. A regular $3.99 costs me £3.15, less 10% customer discount, or £2.835; comparable to $4.38 on today's conversion. So every comic I buy is already more expensive, at least $0.39 per book, and probably more once comparable LCS discount from a USA store is factored in? I accept that, that is analogous to your example.

The premium is mitigated because of the size of orders; both for you and for me at our respective speciality shops. that does not happen in ordering that single comic costing $18 to ship.

This isn't that. My LCS have stated they will order only 25 copies maximum of LotG #1. There are a few (let's say 5) regular VALIANT readers who buy there. The LotG book is ear-marked for one already. The LCS does not regard it as viable to order any more, and think they will struggle to sell those 25 books; they regard it as bad idea, as do some US retailers, although clearly some like Ed see some positives.

The problem, that VEI acknowledges, is that Diamond UK does work differently in some ways to Diamond USA. So they (VEI) have acknowledged they have to work out those differences, which they have yet to do. So the question is, whether it is not viable in my LCS' eyes to order more due to whatever intrinsic factors of UK distribution/returns are in play? If that is the problem, then that is why this promotion does cause some to be treated differently.

Even if largely similar, buying a surplus of those books is actually more expensive (remember that $0.39 I mentioned earlier? That does not all go to the retailer of course), so even then it is more costly for non-US retailers even if the principles are the same. So of course it is a further disincentive to tie money up in stock that may not sell. Factor in that the UK comic book sector is less blessed with stores etc., a less fertile scene, and the problem of availability/scarcity compounds. And that is just the UK. Let alone Sweden, the Philippines, etc.

So scarcity drives a customer to buy from the USA and bingo, I pay $19 USD on top of buying the book to ship it over here. Then the same the next month and so on. Why? The UK is no hot-bed of supply as it is for variants; miss out on this and I think it becomes that much harder. A wait and see approach offers no guarantees at all.

[leonmallett]

I understand that part of it, I'm just not sure why it being difficult to get an American comic in Britain is different than it being difficult to get a British product in the USA.

In the latter case, one product is shipped once over the Atlantic. In the case of returnable comics there is a worst-case scenario of 24 products being shipped twice over the Atlantic, on top of the one comic shipped one-way

/Magnus

I am not sure anyone is listening much to what we are saying on this magnusr.

[Keith]

Maybe I'm a little dense on the issue of international distribution, but if I want to purchase something from Britain here in the USA I have to go to a specialty shop and pay quite a premium - if I can even find it. Is it really unfair that this happens with comics?

I honestly am not trying to argue with this point, just curious regarding the differences.

As I am following the international issue, the promotion isn't as risk-free for overseas stores because the returnability factor involves shipping books back overseas at a considerable expense. Therefore, shops are less likely to jump on the promotion, leaving the alternate option for the consumer of buying a book online from an overseas vendor, which entails paying the international shipping costs on top of the premium for the book. That's how I understand it as it has been presented, although I can't speak to the veracity of the dynamics for international LCSs.

But wouldn't returnability be a normal cost of doing business regardless of this Valiant promotion? Based on Ed's comments, returning comic books is already a part of the business for various reasons, so Valiant running this program won't necessarily be incurring costs above and beyond what they already spend to return Marvel, DC, or Image... right? Or am I missing something here?

[magnusr]

But wouldn't returnability be a normal cost of doing business regardless of this Valiant promotion? Based on Ed's comments, returning comic books is already a part of the business for various reasons, so Valiant running this program won't necessarily be incurring costs above and beyond what they already spend to return Marvel, DC, or Image... right? Or am I missing something here?

Gotta guess here, but would say it isn't a normal cost. All I know is that isn't for my LCS, but it's not really representative. Could be a vicious circle. To make it a normal cost they have to start with some item, but as long as they don't, it's prohobitive to start for just one item, and thus they never start handling returns at all. Just a guess.

/Magnus

[jeremycoe]

Sounds like Diamond needs to develop a larger presence in the UK/Europe so this will be less of an issue

[jeremycoe]

Or maybe lose their monopoly

[ilzuccone]

More objectively, I think the promotion is going to end up being a bad idea because there's going to be some disparity in what fans have to pay if they want to read the series. I imagine there are a decent numbers of readers who won't even be aware of this book until it is released, and wouldn't have had the opportunity to speak to their LCS to arrange something to ensure that their demand for the book is met. I think there's going to be certain amount of antagonism created by the promotion, either against VEI, or against one's LCS, when some people find out later that they have to pay a fortune just to read a new release.

i agree with everything you've said here. i honestly think this promotion is already a bust... but i wait until it's release to make my final decision

[paradise]

But wouldn't returnability be a normal cost of doing business regardless of this Valiant promotion? Based on Ed's comments, returning comic books is already a part of the business for various reasons, so Valiant running this program won't necessarily be incurring costs above and beyond what they already spend to return Marvel, DC, or Image... right? Or am I missing something here?

Gotta guess here, but would say it isn't a normal cost. All I know is that isn't for my LCS, but it's not really representative. Could be a vicious circle. To make it a normal cost they have to start with some item, but as long as they don't, it's prohobitive to start for just one item, and thus they never start handling returns at all. Just a guess.

/Magnus

I have no idea how this is handled outside of US. And I know that many retailers here don't return books. And I have talked to them for years that they are losing significant amounts of money on that. there are weeks that I get hundreds of dollars back from returning books. Most of it is either Image Comics #1s, which are sold returnable often, in exchange for a bigger position, or DC/Marvel issues where talent was changed after solicitation, or it came out 30 days after it's original "out" date. That happens a lot with marvel/dc so there are always long lists on the Diamond invoice for books to be returned. Here is an example from my last week's invoice. this is just ONE WEEK:



When the time comes, those BoD #1s would show up on this list. Most of the time, they are strip cover returns, like you see on the image. That means the weight is nothing. We send it in an envelope, costs $1 or $2 at most. All this talk from stores about effort and costs is complete *SQUEE*. My partner does it every 2-3 weeks and it takes 2 minutes and $2.

[paradise]

Maybe I'm a little dense on the issue of international distribution, but if I want to purchase something from Britain here in the USA I have to go to a specialty shop and pay quite a premium - if I can even find it. Is it really unfair that this happens with comics?

I honestly am not trying to argue with this point, just curious regarding the differences.

We already pay a premium on comics, from speciality shops and have done for years. A regular $3.99 costs me £3.15, less 10% customer discount, or £2.835; comparable to $4.38 on today's conversion. So every comic I buy is already more expensive, at least $0.39 per book, and probably more once comparable LCS discount from a USA store is factored in? I accept that, that is analogous to your example.

The premium is mitigated because of the size of orders; both for you and for me at our respective speciality shops. that does not happen in ordering that single comic costing $18 to ship.

This isn't that. My LCS have stated they will order only 25 copies maximum of LotG #1. There are a few (let's say 5) regular VALIANT readers who buy there. The LotG book is ear-marked for one already. The LCS does not regard it as viable to order any more, and think they will struggle to sell those 25 books; they regard it as bad idea, as do some US retailers, although clearly some like Ed see some positives.

The problem, that VEI acknowledges, is that Diamond UK does work differently in some ways to Diamond USA. So they (VEI) have acknowledged they have to work out those differences, which they have yet to do. So the question is, whether it is not viable in my LCS' eyes to order more due to whatever intrinsic factors of UK distribution/returns are in play? If that is the problem, then that is why this promotion does cause some to be treated differently.

Even if largely similar, buying a surplus of those books is actually more expensive (remember that $0.39 I mentioned earlier? That does not all go to the retailer of course), so even then it is more costly for non-US retailers even if the principles are the same. So of course it is a further disincentive to tie money up in stock that may not sell. Factor in that the UK comic book sector is less blessed with stores etc., a less fertile scene, and the problem of availability/scarcity compounds. And that is just the UK. Let alone Sweden, the Philippines, etc.

So scarcity drives a customer to buy from the USA and bingo, I pay $19 USD on top of buying the book to ship it over here. Then the same the next month and so on. Why? The UK is no hot-bed of supply as it is for variants; miss out on this and I think it becomes that much harder. A wait and see approach offers no guarantees at all.

OK, I totally get that non-US distribution of this book may be more difficult. SO, For ANY buyer outside of US and Canada, who does not want to purchase my "all cover set" I will sell you a set of the Legends series. Please PM me and let's keep it private. I don't want to start a big thing here on the board but I will do my best. Don't expect it to be cover price or anything like that, I have shown you here my costs of doing this, but it will be a fair price. Look forward to your emails.

[Elveen]

Ed = massive win!!!!

[magnusr]

Most of the time, they are strip cover returns

That is very interesting. Thanks for the info.

/Magnus

[leonmallett]

Maybe I'm a little dense on the issue of international distribution, but if I want to purchase something from Britain here in the USA I have to go to a specialty shop and pay quite a premium - if I can even find it. Is it really unfair that this happens with comics?

I honestly am not trying to argue with this point, just curious regarding the differences.

We already pay a premium on comics, from speciality shops and have done for years. A regular $3.99 costs me £3.15, less 10% customer discount, or £2.835; comparable to $4.38 on today's conversion. So every comic I buy is already more expensive, at least $0.39 per book, and probably more once comparable LCS discount from a USA store is factored in? I accept that, that is analogous to your example.

The premium is mitigated because of the size of orders; both for you and for me at our respective speciality shops. that does not happen in ordering that single comic costing $18 to ship.

This isn't that. My LCS have stated they will order only 25 copies maximum of LotG #1. There are a few (let's say 5) regular VALIANT readers who buy there. The LotG book is ear-marked for one already. The LCS does not regard it as viable to order any more, and think they will struggle to sell those 25 books; they regard it as bad idea, as do some US retailers, although clearly some like Ed see some positives.

The problem, that VEI acknowledges, is that Diamond UK does work differently in some ways to Diamond USA. So they (VEI) have acknowledged they have to work out those differences, which they have yet to do. So the question is, whether it is not viable in my LCS' eyes to order more due to whatever intrinsic factors of UK distribution/returns are in play? If that is the problem, then that is why this promotion does cause some to be treated differently.

Even if largely similar, buying a surplus of those books is actually more expensive (remember that $0.39 I mentioned earlier? That does not all go to the retailer of course), so even then it is more costly for non-US retailers even if the principles are the same. So of course it is a further disincentive to tie money up in stock that may not sell. Factor in that the UK comic book sector is less blessed with stores etc., a less fertile scene, and the problem of availability/scarcity compounds. And that is just the UK. Let alone Sweden, the Philippines, etc.

So scarcity drives a customer to buy from the USA and bingo, I pay $19 USD on top of buying the book to ship it over here. Then the same the next month and so on. Why? The UK is no hot-bed of supply as it is for variants; miss out on this and I think it becomes that much harder. A wait and see approach offers no guarantees at all.

OK, I totally get that non-US distribution of this book may be more difficult. SO, For ANY buyer outside of US and Canada, who does not want to purchase my "all cover set" I will sell you a set of the Legends series. Please PM me and let's keep it private. I don't want to start a big thing here on the board but I will do my best. Don't expect it to be cover price or anything like that, I have shown you her my costs of doing this, but it will be a fair price. Look forward to your emails.

Thanks Ed.