This Board and Alien Books

[TheFerg714]

I have so many friends that read Marvel and DC and say all those things and I can't get them to read Valiant. It's for the same, one reason. They feel like they missed out already. They don't want to jump into something that has been around and they feel like they are on the outside of.

I know I'm arguing with the void right now, but this line of reasoning makes no sense. Marvel and DC are infinitely harder to get a grasp on. Like what are you gonna do, start reading in 1938? Valiant, on the other hand, is in reality, signicantly easier to jump into.

He even bought the trade but then he didn't read it when he said the Valiant logo.

Well that's about the dumbest *SQUEE* I've ever heard. I thought it was common knowledge that good books can come out of any publisher, even if said publisher isn't great overall.

I think there's a difference between something being good or high quality and something that breaks through to a wider popularity. There's a ton of things, whether comics or other media, that are super high quality and might connect with a lot of people but not enough to break through. We've all had shows or movies like that, comics history is littered with them as well.

You're not wrong, but then that just makes me question what it takes. It seems that Valiant can be the best publisher in the world, and yet it's just not going to do any good? So what's the point? Why try? This is kind of the mindset that Bad Idea seems to be tapping into. They don't super care about acclaim and sales. They just want to make good *SQUEE* for a handful of readers, hopefully make enough money to continue publishing, and move on. It's a much more laudable goal, but I'm still left a little sad that Valiant couldn't become any bigger.

I'd also present counter-evidence by showing how well Across the Spider-Verse did, compared to the rest of the superhero movies this year. There's a reason why it did so well; it's because the first one knocked everyone's socks off. It didn't make a ton of money, but it was critically and fan acclaimed. Quality had to have something to do with it. Nothing else explains why it performed so well.

([Bloodshot is] actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation)

That is very debatable lol.

[syzhang28]

I have so many friends that read Marvel and DC and say all those things and I can't get them to read Valiant. It's for the same, one reason. They feel like they missed out already. They don't want to jump into something that has been around and they feel like they are on the outside of.

I know I'm arguing with the void right now, but this line of reasoning makes no sense. Marvel and DC are infinitely harder to get a grasp on. Like what are you gonna do, start reading in 1938? Valiant, on the other hand, is in reality, signicantly easier to jump into.

I agree but they aren't perceived that way. They are perceived to have many jumping on points. Plus people have some prior knowledge through osmosis from toys, cartoons, movies. I bet they too suffered with trying to bring in new readers before those things happened.

He even bought the trade but then he didn't read it when he said the Valiant logo.

Well that's about the dumbest *SQUEE* I've ever heard. I thought it was common knowledge that good books can come out of any publisher, even if said publisher isn't great overall.

Yeah, its very frustrating because I know he would love Divinity.

I think there's a difference between something being good or high quality and something that breaks through to a wider popularity. There's a ton of things, whether comics or other media, that are super high quality and might connect with a lot of people but not enough to break through. We've all had shows or movies like that, comics history is littered with them as well.

You're not wrong, but then that just makes me question what it takes. It seems that Valiant can be the best publisher in the world, and yet it's just not going to do any good? So what's the point? Why try? This is kind of the mindset that Bad Idea seems to be tapping into. They don't super care about acclaim and sales. They just want to make good *SQUEE* for a handful of readers, hopefully make enough money to continue publishing, and move on. It's a much more laudable goal, but I'm still left a little sad that Valiant couldn't become any bigger.

I'd also present counter-evidence by showing how well Across the Spider-Verse did, compared to the rest of the superhero movies this year. There's a reason why it did so well; it's because the first one knocked everyone's socks off. It didn't make a ton of money, but it was critically and fan acclaimed. Quality had to have something to do with it. Nothing else explains why it performed so well.

I think quality can be a booster once you get passed that first obstacle. Across the Spider-Verse had the most popular character in comics in Spider-Man to start with.

([Bloodshot is] actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation)

That is very debatable lol.

I thought Bloodshot was fantastic and my feeling is it would have been a big hit if not for covid.

[ManofTheAtom]

I have so many friends that read Marvel and DC and say all those things and I can't get them to read Valiant. It's for the same, one reason. They feel like they missed out already. They don't want to jump into something that has been around and they feel like they are on the outside of.

I know I'm arguing with the void right now, but this line of reasoning makes no sense. Marvel and DC are infinitely harder to get a grasp on. Like what are you gonna do, start reading in 1938? Valiant, on the other hand, is in reality, signicantly easier to jump into.

I agree but they aren't perceived that way. They are perceived to have many jumping on points. Plus people have some prior knowledge through osmosis from toys, cartoons, movies. I bet they too suffered with trying to bring in new readers before those things happened.

He even bought the trade but then he didn't read it when he said the Valiant logo.

Well that's about the dumbest *SQUEE* I've ever heard. I thought it was common knowledge that good books can come out of any publisher, even if said publisher isn't great overall.

Yeah, its very frustrating because I know he would love Divinity.

I think there's a difference between something being good or high quality and something that breaks through to a wider popularity. There's a ton of things, whether comics or other media, that are super high quality and might connect with a lot of people but not enough to break through. We've all had shows or movies like that, comics history is littered with them as well.

You're not wrong, but then that just makes me question what it takes. It seems that Valiant can be the best publisher in the world, and yet it's just not going to do any good? So what's the point? Why try? This is kind of the mindset that Bad Idea seems to be tapping into. They don't super care about acclaim and sales. They just want to make good *SQUEE* for a handful of readers, hopefully make enough money to continue publishing, and move on. It's a much more laudable goal, but I'm still left a little sad that Valiant couldn't become any bigger.

I'd also present counter-evidence by showing how well Across the Spider-Verse did, compared to the rest of the superhero movies this year. There's a reason why it did so well; it's because the first one knocked everyone's socks off. It didn't make a ton of money, but it was critically and fan acclaimed. Quality had to have something to do with it. Nothing else explains why it performed so well.

I think quality can be a booster once you get passed that first obstacle. Across the Spider-Verse had the most popular character in comics in Spider-Man to start with.

([Bloodshot is] actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation)

That is very debatable lol.

I thought Bloodshot was fantastic and my feeling is it would have been a big hit if not for covid.

Definitely, applicable to both your responses, heh.

[TheFerg714]

I think quality can be a booster once you get passed that first obstacle. Across the Spider-Verse had the most popular character in comics in Spider-Man to start with.

But that doesn't account for the first Spider-Verse movie. Yea, it has Spider-Man in it, but it didn't perform all that well.

I thought Bloodshot was fantastic and my feeling is it would have been a big hit if not for covid.

I'm genuinely glad you liked it, but I didn't. Vin Diesel was one-note like usual, and is a terrible leading man, the actual character design of Bloodshot was god awful, the cg in the action scenes looked like it was from an early 2000's superhero movie. I couldn't get invested in anything tbh. For something produced by Dino, it surprisingly felt ashamed of it's comic book roots.

[Ryan]

You're not wrong, but then that just makes me question what it takes. It seems that Valiant can be the best publisher in the world, and yet it's just not going to do any good? So what's the point? Why try? This is kind of the mindset that Bad Idea seems to be tapping into. They don't super care about acclaim and sales. They just want to make good *SQUEE* for a handful of readers, hopefully make enough money to continue publishing, and move on. It's a much more laudable goal, but I'm still left a little sad that Valiant couldn't become any bigger.

I'd also present counter-evidence by showing how well Across the Spider-Verse did, compared to the rest of the superhero movies this year. There's a reason why it did so well; it's because the first one knocked everyone's socks off. It didn't make a ton of money, but it was critically and fan acclaimed. Quality had to have something to do with it. Nothing else explains why it performed so well.

But VEI did have a lot of success. They had acclaim and sold a ton of comics. The only thing they didn't achieve was a real breakthrough success into that much wider audience. There's so many factors to that kind of breakthrough, quality is only one, and things like luck and timing also play a big role.

Honestly, looking at how well their kickstarters are going, I think Bad Idea is a better place for what they want to do anyway. They can explore any genre and they aren't tied to monthly comics or a stable of action superhero characters. They own everything they create and have total creative freedom.

[Ryan]

I'm genuinely glad you liked it, but I didn't. Vin Diesel was one-note like usual, and is a terrible leading man, the actual character design of Bloodshot was god awful, the cg in the action scenes looked like it was from an early 2000's superhero movie. I couldn't get invested in anything tbh. For something produced by Dino, it surprisingly felt ashamed of it's comic book roots.

My theory is that Vin was cast mostly for the Chinese market. People don't believe me when I tell them, but the Fast and Furious movies are HUGE over there, seem to be as big as the MCU. So Chinese investors wanting a hit in the Chinese market, Vin is about on par with Downey Jr. over there, then Covid hits opening week (and had actually already shut everything down in China the month before, Feb. 2020) . Who knows how it would've turned out, but I think that's what they were going for.

[ManofTheAtom]

But VEI did have a lot of success. They had acclaim

We don't use that word here...

[Ryan]

But VEI did have a lot of success. They had acclaim

We don't use that word here...

I knew that one would get me in trouble.

[ManofTheAtom]

But VEI did have a lot of success. They had acclaim

We don't use that word here...

I knew that one would get me in trouble.

[lorddunlow]

Bloodshot could have been that for VALIANT (it's actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation), but for multiple reasons (some that didn't even have anything to do with the comic book or the quality of the movie -- i.e. people's unexplained disdain for Diesel), the movie didn't perform as well as it could have. Of course, the COVID pandemic did not help. Sans that, it COULD have been a success.

100% without COVID or if they had pulled it last minute like they did for some movies (like A Quiet Place 2), I think we have a different outcome for Valiant right now. Marvel was (and is) waning in popularity and Valiant properties are just different enough that I think they could have a ridden a wave of positive press. Unfortunately everyone was more concerned about how going to the grocery store was a death sentence.



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[ManofTheAtom]

Bloodshot could have been that for VALIANT (it's actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation), but for multiple reasons (some that didn't even have anything to do with the comic book or the quality of the movie -- i.e. people's unexplained disdain for Diesel), the movie didn't perform as well as it could have. Of course, the COVID pandemic did not help. Sans that, it COULD have been a success.

100% without COVID or if they had pulled it last minute like they did for some movies (like A Quiet Place 2), I think we have a different outcome for Valiant right now. Marvel was (and is) waning in popularity and Valiant properties are just different enough that I think they could have a ridden a wave of positive press. Unfortunately everyone was more concerned about how going to the grocery store was a death sentence.



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Indeed. Hopefully we'll get another chance in the not-too-distant future.

[grendeljd]

Every fanbase needs new fans coming in to survive. Where did all the VEI fans and nanny boo club go? Became Bad Idea fans and to twitter I guess.

I think people should be free to express their true thoughts on a fan message board, as long as it doesn't devolve into personal or nasty attacks. Anyone who creates media for others' consumption has to be ready for a broad range of reactions, and be secure enough to not take reactions to the work as personal attacks.

If there are people who aren't into the new books, they'll eventually find other interests. Just like a lot of the old school/Shooterverse fans who used to be on this board. And a lot of the Dino-era VEI fans who used to post here all the time.

Nanny boo club? I feel like I missed something, lol.

I was mostly only lurking then, but there were a number of board members who had insider knowledge of VEI and would sort of flaunt their status. Lol it was whatever, just interesting that none of them seem to post anymore.

Oh, right. I think I recall that.

I was in the loop at VEI for a number of years but never flaunted it, heh.

I think I was one of those nanny boo boo club people back then, but I like to think I didn’t flaunt it too much. The truth is recorded in message board history though…

Much like you and your involvement in those early VEI development days MOTA, but for different reasons - there was a small cadre of us who were recruited by Dinesh & co as a fan-driven group that would meet regularly with them (pre-covid online with Skype) and discuss our marketing/promotional ideas for Valiant with them, in exchange for some occasional goodies and sneak peaks at upcoming material not released to the public yet. It was a fun time, and I’m glad I got to be part of it, but honestly I don’t think it really amounted to much. Fan Art Friday was one of my personal favourite activities of that time to participate in and I was glad to put effort into maintaining the momentum of it.

There were also many other fans who simply got to meet the guys in person at cons on a regular basis, that were also shown sneak peeks in advance, who also kind of fell under the nanny boo boo thing too.

I think they were ultimately just angling for a groundswell approach to engaging Valiant fans as focal points of doing more free marketing for them through hype - and I think it mostly worked well for them. Back then it really felt like they appreciated their fans.

It’s a tactic they’ve done to much greater extent now over at Bad Idea, but it feels more hollow to me and I’m not interested in participating in promoting Bad Idea books. That’s not to say that they don’t appreciate their fans still - but it feels far more like fans are being used as a tool instead of being treated like a fan. I’m feeling much less engaged with them as a publisher, even though I would say they still create very high quality comics. For me personally I’ve only been interested in a fraction of the titles they produce there though, and find their distribution ideas to be incredibly off-putting.

[grendeljd]

Yeah it didn't actually bother me, I think for the most part they were just excited like any fan would be. It's just that they all seemed to disappear which is too bad.

So I've seen. What happened, though? Apathy toward VEI? DMG? Did they get bored of each other?

Good questions. My theory is that they (and many others) were super invested in VEI under Dinesh and Simons. Then when Harbinger Wars 2 was changed and all the threads that had been building were dropped in favor of the 'soft reboot' called Valiant Next (I think?) it took out all the excitement and their fandom ended (or became less). So their interest was directly tied to having monthly books coming out that they were enjoying. Makes sense, I wonder what makes all of us older fans so crazy?

I can say that I was part of a definite crowd of fans who took it very personally when Mintz/DMG expelled Dinesh after he took over the majority ownership. I wasn’t interested in supporting a corporate-minded company that was so callously immoral in cutting the heart & soul out of VEI like that. It was incredibly petty & showed a mean-spirited kind of greed that I didn’t want to just shrug off.

When the majority of creators and employees jumped ship in a show of support for Dinesh, I felt that it was also important to take a stance on that as a fan. You can call it “just business” and continue to be a mindless consumer of goods in the face of these kinds of things, but it bothered me too much to just ignore it in this case. It still angers me to think that guy continues to own Valiant, and while I have softened on that just enough to purchase *some* Valiant books (digital only), that is always still in the back of my mind.

I also feel bad for those who remained in the company over the years since and didn’t want to see *them* lose their jobs when they were essentially just caught in the crossfire of that incident, which is where my mind goes to when I do feel like supporting any of their books in more recent years.

[ManofTheAtom]

Every fanbase needs new fans coming in to survive. Where did all the VEI fans and nanny boo club go? Became Bad Idea fans and to twitter I guess.

I think people should be free to express their true thoughts on a fan message board, as long as it doesn't devolve into personal or nasty attacks. Anyone who creates media for others' consumption has to be ready for a broad range of reactions, and be secure enough to not take reactions to the work as personal attacks.

If there are people who aren't into the new books, they'll eventually find other interests. Just like a lot of the old school/Shooterverse fans who used to be on this board. And a lot of the Dino-era VEI fans who used to post here all the time.

Nanny boo club? I feel like I missed something, lol.

I was mostly only lurking then, but there were a number of board members who had insider knowledge of VEI and would sort of flaunt their status. Lol it was whatever, just interesting that none of them seem to post anymore.

Oh, right. I think I recall that.

I was in the loop at VEI for a number of years but never flaunted it, heh.

I think I was one of those nanny boo boo club people back then, but I like to think I didn’t flaunt it too much. The truth is recorded in message board history though…

Much like you and your involvement in those early VEI development days MOTA, but for different reasons - there was a small cadre of us who were recruited by Dinesh & co as a fan-driven group that would meet regularly with them (pre-covid online with Skype) and discuss our marketing/promotional ideas for Valiant with them, in exchange for some occasional goodies and sneak peaks at upcoming material not released to the public yet. It was a fun time, and I’m glad I got to be part of it, but honestly I don’t think it really amounted to much. Fan Art Friday was one of my personal favourite activities of that time to participate in and I was glad to put effort into maintaining the momentum of it.

There were also many other fans who simply got to meet the guys in person at cons on a regular basis, that were also shown sneak peeks in advance, who also kind of fell under the nanny boo boo thing too.

I think they were ultimately just angling for a groundswell approach to engaging Valiant fans as focal points of doing more free marketing for them through hype - and I think it mostly worked well for them. Back then it really felt like they appreciated their fans.

It’s a tactic they’ve done to much greater extent now over at Bad Idea, but it feels more hollow to me and I’m not interested in participating in promoting Bad Idea books. That’s not to say that they don’t appreciate their fans still - but it feels far more like fans are being used as a tool instead of being treated like a fan. I’m feeling much less engaged with them as a publisher, even though I would say they still create very high quality comics. For me personally I’ve only been interested in a fraction of the titles they produce there though, and find their distribution ideas to be incredibly off-putting.

Ah, cool. I wasn't aware of that. It does sound cool.

I haven't really been keeping up with Bad Idea, to tell the truth. I suspect they might do a shared universe at some point, but that's me just guessing. It sounds like a thing they should do.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yeah it didn't actually bother me, I think for the most part they were just excited like any fan would be. It's just that they all seemed to disappear which is too bad.

So I've seen. What happened, though? Apathy toward VEI? DMG? Did they get bored of each other?

Good questions. My theory is that they (and many others) were super invested in VEI under Dinesh and Simons. Then when Harbinger Wars 2 was changed and all the threads that had been building were dropped in favor of the 'soft reboot' called Valiant Next (I think?) it took out all the excitement and their fandom ended (or became less). So their interest was directly tied to having monthly books coming out that they were enjoying. Makes sense, I wonder what makes all of us older fans so crazy?

I can say that I was part of a definite crowd of fans who took it very personally when Mintz/DMG expelled Dinesh after he took over the majority ownership. I wasn’t interested in supporting a corporate-minded company that was so callously immoral in cutting the heart & soul out of VEI like that. It was incredibly petty & showed a mean-spirited kind of greed that I didn’t want to just shrug off.

When the majority of creators and employees jumped ship in a show of support for Dinesh, I felt that it was also important to take a stance on that as a fan. You can call it “just business” and continue to be a mindless consumer of goods in the face of these kinds of things, but it bothered me too much to just ignore it in this case. It still angers me to think that guy continues to own Valiant, and while I have softened on that just enough to purchase *some* Valiant books (digital only), that is always still in the back of my mind.

I also feel bad for those who remained in the company over the years since and didn’t want to see *them* lose their jobs when they were essentially just caught in the crossfire of that incident, which is where my mind goes to when I do feel like supporting any of their books in more recent years.

Indeed.

[grendeljd]

I should also say, in light of my two immediate posts above - that while I was fiercely loyal to Dinesh and co while they were still at Valiant, and felt like it was a great wrong that was done to him there… that loyalty did not entirely transfer over to Bad Idea.

I am less invested in Bad Idea but hold no feelings of ill-will, anger or hatred toward that company. I also hope Dinesh & everyone else continue to be successful there and continue to make great books - I’m just not that attached to the endeavour.

The thing that happened to him at VEI ultimately leaves me feeling conflicted about supporting Valiant still, so long as DMG owns them.

[grendeljd]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

Still active enough to keep an eye on the activity of those pesky Canadians, I see…

[ManofTheAtom]

I should also say, in light of my two immediate posts above - that while I was fiercely loyal to Dinesh and co while they were still at Valiant, and felt like it was a great wrong that was done to him there… that loyalty did not entirely transfer over to Bad Idea.

I am less invested in Bad Idea but hold no feelings of ill-will, anger or hatred toward that company. I also hope Dinesh & everyone else continue to be successful there and continue to make great books - I’m just not that attached to the endeavour.

The thing that happened to him at VEI ultimately leaves me feeling conflicted about supporting Valiant still, so long as DMG owns them.

Brand loyalty vs friendship and all that.

It's easier to turn a blind eye to this sort of things when the people involved are just names in an editorial page and virtual/literal strangers, but with Dinesh and the members of this board it was more personal because he was one of US (Dino). LONG before he was the "nerd boss" he was just another poster of this board (maybe even the mailing list? Don't know), so of course everyone feels his dismissal.

Not just for that but because he, as you mentioned above, made sure that at least some of us were involved in what happened with VALIANT. He "spread the wealth", as it were (though not the literal wealth...). He allowed some of us to join in on the fun.

[leonmallett]

Also good questions. My interest had dipped out for a while at that point too, and I was only occasionally lurking. Maybe things had hit a bit of a wall and people were waiting for something big like a movie to happen?

I think maybe it was really exciting to see Valiant expand exponentially. During the 2015 soft-reboot (Valiant Next), I think it became clear that, while the quality was extremely high, Valiant had kind of hit a wall in terms of sales numbers. Then came 2016's Future of Valiant, which not only drew even less sales, but also saw a slight drop in quality.

For me, a VEI fan since 2014, none of this deterred me, because 90% of their output was *SQUEE* incredible. For OG fans, this might have been disheartening.

Just speculating.

That's interesting. Also speculating here, but they were so good at marketing that I think at times that can come off as over-marketing and that can burn people out. As well as the 'whales' who have to collect everything can get burned out by the volume of variants and whatnot, and they just end up quitting altogether.

Just one personal perspective, but it chimes a little with what you say - despite its generally good quality, the Shamdasani-era forced scarcity of some story content led me to drop the line; I could not support a publisher who did not support readers (especially those beyond North America) to be able to have fair access to all story content.

Add to that a seoming plethora of variant covers (great for some, a risky bubble waiting to burst to others), and a wilful decision to not expand the line beyond 8 or 9 books a month at the VEI peak just overall felt to me that things were not sustainable, but then that is easy to say in hindsight.

[leonmallett]

So Harbinger Wars 2 was like Whedon’s Justice League? I always wondered what the hell moment the HW2 #0 send away cover was reflecting in the book. Harada wasn’t in the story and who was the faceless entity diving into his head?!? Inquiring minds want to know. It was such a good Crain cover for goodness sakes!

To get back on topic, I agree with the sentiment of this thread. However, it all starts with good books where there is something to talk about and share. Do we think Alien books changes the status quo now? Have no idea about them.


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I agree, which makes it all the more crazy that this place had so many fans during 2001-2010 when it seemed like there might never be Valiant books again.

The torchbearers.

There was so much energy, excitement, and anticipation. It was a fun time

Definitely. It boggles the mind that the board's community was able to survive over a decade without any new VALIANT comics but died out after just a few years of bad decisions from the current owners.

Just one perspective, and I don't mistake my opinion for fact, but there were arguably some bad decisions during the pre-takeover era.

[leonmallett]

I've thought about this a lot before. VEI was genuinely the best superhero shared universe of them all, at least in my opinion, but why doesn't it ever get talked about? Why is the fanbase such a tiny speck in the grand scheme of comic book fanbases?

People say they're tired of the same old *SQUEE* from the Big 2, but then don't give Valiant a chance. People say they want a more cohesive shared universe, but no one thinks to try Valiant. People say they want less, and more impactful events, and there's Valiant just waiting to be read, but no one seems to give a *SQUEE*.

It's kind of a mystery to me. What will it take to get Valiant to the "next level"? One would hope that high quality books would do it, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Valiant just isn't nearly as good as we think it is?

DC and Marvel have always had a leg up on VALIANT; adaptations in other media.

They're not the big two because of what they do in comics, it's because of how they've been adapted in other media.

Bloodshot could have been that for VALIANT (it's actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation), but for multiple reasons (some that didn't even have anything to do with the comic book or the quality of the movie -- i.e. people's unexplained disdain for Diesel), the movie didn't perform as well as it could have. Of course, the COVID pandemic did not help. Sans that, it COULD have been a success.

They are arguably the big two because of weight of history, keystone recognisable characters, huge lower tier character libraries which are merchandised, and other media; not solely due to other media.

[leonmallett]

...

([Bloodshot is] actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation)

That is very debatable lol.

It felt like a B-movie in an A-movie superhero-movie world.

[Ryan]

Just one perspective, and I don't mistake my opinion for fact, but there were arguably some bad decisions during the pre-takeover era.

Could you expand on this? Pre-takeover era means 2001-2008(7)? Before the auction?

[ManofTheAtom]

I've thought about this a lot before. VEI was genuinely the best superhero shared universe of them all, at least in my opinion, but why doesn't it ever get talked about? Why is the fanbase such a tiny speck in the grand scheme of comic book fanbases?

People say they're tired of the same old *SQUEE* from the Big 2, but then don't give Valiant a chance. People say they want a more cohesive shared universe, but no one thinks to try Valiant. People say they want less, and more impactful events, and there's Valiant just waiting to be read, but no one seems to give a *SQUEE*.

It's kind of a mystery to me. What will it take to get Valiant to the "next level"? One would hope that high quality books would do it, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Valiant just isn't nearly as good as we think it is?

DC and Marvel have always had a leg up on VALIANT; adaptations in other media.

They're not the big two because of what they do in comics, it's because of how they've been adapted in other media.

Bloodshot could have been that for VALIANT (it's actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation), but for multiple reasons (some that didn't even have anything to do with the comic book or the quality of the movie -- i.e. people's unexplained disdain for Diesel), the movie didn't perform as well as it could have. Of course, the COVID pandemic did not help. Sans that, it COULD have been a success.

They are arguably the big two because of weight of history, keystone recognisable characters, huge lower tier character libraries which are merchandised, and other media; not solely due to other media.

It was other media that made their characters recognizable, though.

[ManofTheAtom]

Also good questions. My interest had dipped out for a while at that point too, and I was only occasionally lurking. Maybe things had hit a bit of a wall and people were waiting for something big like a movie to happen?

I think maybe it was really exciting to see Valiant expand exponentially. During the 2015 soft-reboot (Valiant Next), I think it became clear that, while the quality was extremely high, Valiant had kind of hit a wall in terms of sales numbers. Then came 2016's Future of Valiant, which not only drew even less sales, but also saw a slight drop in quality.

For me, a VEI fan since 2014, none of this deterred me, because 90% of their output was *SQUEE* incredible. For OG fans, this might have been disheartening.

Just speculating.

That's interesting. Also speculating here, but they were so good at marketing that I think at times that can come off as over-marketing and that can burn people out. As well as the 'whales' who have to collect everything can get burned out by the volume of variants and whatnot, and they just end up quitting altogether.

Just one personal perspective, but it chimes a little with what you say - despite its generally good quality, the Shamdasani-era forced scarcity of some story content led me to drop the line; I could not support a publisher who did not support readers (especially those beyond North America) to be able to have fair access to all story content.

Add to that a seoming plethora of variant covers (great for some, a risky bubble waiting to burst to others), and a wilful decision to not expand the line beyond 8 or 9 books a month at the VEI peak just overall felt to me that things were not sustainable, but then that is easy to say in hindsight.

How many series do you think they should have published? 18 was the max for VH 1.