Harbinger Death

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:14 pm

david_albuq wrote:If VEI offs Peter, I will cancel my entire purchasing budget to VEI comics. And I think some people may be just as ticked as that. I hope VEI isn't that myopically-naive to kill-off one of their best characters in what looks like a PR play....and have fans not react with their wallets.

That's just me and my couple two cents.

Kris would make sense, but not Sting.

I would be upset to .. but that's extreme.

In Dysart I trust

Like I said before - it would be hard for me to believe they don't have an epic confrontation between Peter and Harada in issue #25 like they did in VH1. That would be a missed opportunity.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:58 pm

The only I'm sure will happen is Dysart will seriously screw with our heads.

My money is on one Renegade accidentally killing another.

I'm starting to lean Flamingo loses control and flames Faith to death.

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:57 pm

lorddunlow wrote:Rhymes with wussy, which I would also call you!

A little humility would be appropriate for the loser of The Bet.

lorddunlow wrote:My money is on one Renegade accidentally killing another.

I'm starting to lean Flamingo loses control and flames Faith to death.

That's a bold statement. Now you're also predicting how it will happen? Are you really willing to put your money there? Side bets are allowed, ya know.

Sir Sandrick · Post by **Sir Sandrick** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:29 pm

I think that Torque's relationship with Faith is going to cause him to lose his projection at a key moment and causes his demise. I think he will save her, not realize that he is losing his projection due to his feelings and Whammo!

Whatever it is, I am sure that it will be tough to read... but there are so few comics that take a chance by really killing off a character. Really, the only time that I re-read comics is when they have BIG moments like that so I am pretty darn excited to see what happens.

Baramos · Post by **Baramos** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:08 pm

kjjohanson wrote:
Baramos wrote:Any of the core group would be a big deal, though. Faith is protected by foretelling, though. Flamingo, Kris or Torque seem up for grabs.
We don't know that "Faith" is the Renegades' Faith. It could refer to someone else named Faith, or someone pious that took "Faith" as a codename. (Considering her history, it could be referring to Mary-Maria.)

That would seem like an enormous cop-out, though. I would hate it. That would be on the same level as the fact that the writer has apparently said the battle between Archer & Bloodshot in #18 was the "foretold" one, which is really, really lame. I hope that gets changed back to being some future climactic battle.

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:54 pm

Baramos wrote: the writer has apparently said the battle between Archer & Bloodshot in #18 was the "foretold" one, which is really, really lame. I hope that gets changed back to being some future climactic battle.

While I hope they don't try to undo it, I will agree that I was expecting something more Earth shattering from the prediction when it was first revealed.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:37 am

If this was the revelation of the prophecy, then it was stupid 100%. In what way did he "destroy" BloodShot? Does destroy now mean think you have defeated someone only to then be choked into submission when they were playing possum?

Either this is not the true fulfillment of Ivar's prophecy or they are just ignoring it and acting like it will never happen.

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:05 pm

lorddunlow wrote:If this was the revelation of the prophecy, then it was stupid 100%. In what way did he "destroy" BloodShot? Does destroy now mean think you have defeated someone only to then be choked into submission when they were playing possum?

Either this is not the true fulfillment of Ivar's prophecy or they are just ignoring it and acting like it will never happen.

I think the eventual explanation is that IVAR's mind became swiss cheese(technical term i learned from watching quantum leap) due to the continua imprisonment. The bar crawl through time issue in A&A, Ivar explains that he has seen every possibility become reality from Adolf Hitler winning a noble peace prize to Mother Theresa as an Axe murderer. I think we need to realize that these revelations might have just been one of the many possibilities that Ivar has seen happen. Its still possible that Archer "destroys" Bloodshot but I think just revealing that possibility to Archer might have altered Archer's path by having him believe that it was something that DEFINITELY will happen and he got too complacent/over confident in his confrontation. That might have been the point in which he did destroy Bloodshot in one of the possibilities but Ivar (and his revelations) altered the path. Embrace the Multiverse. Its real. And I think VEI is using it in this case.

ShadowTuga · Post by **ShadowTuga** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:03 pm

lorddunlow wrote:The only I'm sure will happen is Dysart will seriously screw with our heads.

My money is on one Renegade accidentally killing another.

I'm starting to lean Flamingo loses control and flames Faith to death.

I'm not laughing out loud, you evil man. EVIL!!!!!

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:55 pm

lorddunlow wrote:If this was the revelation of the prophecy, then it was stupid 100%. In what way did he "destroy" BloodShot? Does destroy now mean think you have defeated someone only to then be choked into submission when they were playing possum?

Either this is not the true fulfillment of Ivar's prophecy or they are just ignoring it and acting like it will never happen.

Well, now that I think about it, perhaps this isn't the prediction come true and Archer merely assumed it was; and that some future point we will see something more dramatic.

My reasoning is that for something so trivial as "Wow, I beat him. No wait, I was wrong!" how would Ivar have come to know of this momentary thought process, and more critically, why would he even bother to bring it up to Archer since it was so unimportant and untrue?

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:59 pm

My view of the odds:

Kris: 60 percent
Flamingo: 30 percent
Faith: 5 percent
Pete: 2 percent
Animalia: 2 percent
Torque: 1 percent

I think Kris's death gives more storytelling possibilities, given the way she was initially brought in, has behaved since, and has no powers.

Faith and Pete dying would also entail great storytelling power, but I think either of these would be too risky, they're the heart and soul of the book, IMO. And without Pete, there is no way they could ever challenge Harada, so that would wipe out the conflict that drives the book. In addition, Faith's death would make Ivar's mind look like Swiss cheese, and take out some of the power from Archer and Armstrong 12.

Flamingo's death would be flat, I think, because they haven't developed her character enough. I'm biased, too, because she's my favorite (I root for the southern belle, and my favorite cover is the Lupacchino Harbinger 7 variant). However, I think her odds are high, because if they want to kill off one of the less developed characters, well, she would be the obvious option, so I placed her at 30 percent.

Animalia would be lame, because she's not really one of the renegades.

And Torque, it's been done, plus his character, like Flamingo's, needs more development, so his death would be flat too.

So, I'm betting on Kris at 60 percent odds.

Followed by Flamingo at 30 percent. I'd be shocked if it's anyone else.

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:08 pm

And if I'm wrong, I'll gladly come back on here and eat crow.

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:18 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:And if I'm wrong, I'll gladly come back on here and eat crow.

How about if you're wrong, you lose $50? Come on, Bruce, put yer money where your mouth is!

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:25 pm

jmatt wrote:
bamaphilosopher wrote:And if I'm wrong, I'll gladly come back on here and eat crow.

How about if you're wrong, you lose $50? Come on, Bruce, put yer money where your mouth is!

+1

I think it's just going to be me and you again...

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:25 am

lorddunlow wrote:
jmatt wrote:
bamaphilosopher wrote:And if I'm wrong, I'll gladly come back on here and eat crow.

How about if you're wrong, you lose $50? Come on, Bruce, put yer money where your mouth is!
+1

I think it's just going to be me and you again...

If I had money, I'd put my money where my mouth is.

Then again, if I had that kind of cash to throw around, I'd rather spend the 50 bucks on a VEI variant than lose it in a bet over one the Harbinger kids dying.

kjjohanson · Post by **kjjohanson** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:55 pm

lorddunlow wrote:
jmatt wrote:
bamaphilosopher wrote:And if I'm wrong, I'll gladly come back on here and eat crow.

How about if you're wrong, you lose $50? Come on, Bruce, put yer money where your mouth is!
+1

I think it's just going to be me and you again...

As mentioned previously, side bets are allowed.

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:01 pm

lorddunlow wrote:
jmatt wrote:
bamaphilosopher wrote:And if I'm wrong, I'll gladly come back on here and eat crow.

How about if you're wrong, you lose $50? Come on, Bruce, put yer money where your mouth is!
+1

I think it's just going to be me and you again...

We'll see. Even just the two of us will be a lot of fun.

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:32 am

Tim wrote:Flamingo would be too easy for Dysart and that's why I think it's Pete. Kris, Faith and John seem to be safe from the data we have so far and I can't imagine Dysart wasting a moment like this on a character who wouldn't resonate heavy. Flamingo just isn't important enough to die, IMO.

I agree with you about Flamingo, but that's why I think it's Kris.

Another thing: Kris was kind of created just to be the mother of Magnus in the old VH1 series, in my opinion. She is the logical choice.

I don't see the logic of killing Pete Stanchek. Granted, it would be a phenomenal story, but I really hope they don't do it. I think it would kill the conflict that drives the book.

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:22 pm

After reading Bleeding Monk 0, I think Pete's off the table. I think the monk sensed Harada and Pete's growing conflict on the horizon. And remember, the Bleeding Monk thinks Pete is "the Destroyer." So, I'm betting it's not Pete.

I still say it has to be Kris, or maybe Flamingo.

lorddunlow · Post by **lorddunlow** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:39 pm

bamaphilosopher wrote:After reading Bleeding Monk 0, I think Pete's off the table. I think the monk sensed Harada and Pete's growing conflict on the horizon. And remember, the Bleeding Monk thinks Pete is "the Destroyer." So, I'm betting it's not Pete.

I still say it has to be Kris, or maybe Flamingo.

Well, concerning the Bleeding Monk, I think the only thing he has ever said/thought that we can trust as true is the contents of Bleeding Monk #0. He states in that book that after seeing the struggle between the two (Harada/Pete) that he has decided that he must shape this world as he sees fit. Everything he has done or said in every book up to Bleeding Monk #0 is part of that manipulation. He clearly was manipulating the Renegades when he appeared to Pete. I think Bleeding Monk #0 confirms what many of us believed - that he was manipulating Harada as well. His "Pete is the destroyer" speech was for Harada's benefit. He wants Harada to turn Pete into an enemy. I think he was worried when they were getting along in the first arc.

The guy doesn't just see the future, he exists in all times. If he can change something, he will if he chooses to do so. He also knows what he can and cannot change. The cool thing is, we have no idea what he wants to change. I think he is angling for the destruction of all things, and he sees the battle between Harada and Pete as a means to that end. I think (as someone pointed out in another thread) that he wants to die.

The Bleeding Monk has been (and remains) my favorite VEI character since Harbinger #1 hit the stands.

I also called he was evil back in the discussions of that first arc. And before some smart *SQUEE* comes along and says "but we don't know that he's evil..." - he's evil. Get over it. It's awesome.

bamaphilosopher · Post by **bamaphilosopher** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:17 pm

lorddunlow wrote:
bamaphilosopher wrote:After reading Bleeding Monk 0, I think Pete's off the table. I think the monk sensed Harada and Pete's growing conflict on the horizon. And remember, the Bleeding Monk thinks Pete is "the Destroyer." So, I'm betting it's not Pete.

I still say it has to be Kris, or maybe Flamingo.
Well, concerning the Bleeding Monk, I think the only thing he has ever said/thought that we can trust as true is the contents of Bleeding Monk #0. He states in that book that after seeing the struggle between the two (Harada/Pete) that he has decided that he must shape this world as he sees fit. Everything he has done or said in every book up to Bleeding Monk #0 is part of that manipulation. He clearly was manipulating the Renegades when he appeared to Pete. I think Bleeding Monk #0 confirms what many of us believed - that he was manipulating Harada as well. His "Pete is the destroyer" speech was for Harada's benefit. He wants Harada to turn Pete into an enemy. I think he was worried when they were getting along in the first arc.

The guy doesn't just see the future, he exists in all times. If he can change something, he will if he chooses to do so. He also knows what he can and cannot change. The cool thing is, we have no idea what he wants to change. I think he is angling for the destruction of all things, and he sees the battle between Harada and Pete as a means to that end. I think (as someone pointed out in another thread) that he wants to die.

The Bleeding Monk has been (and remains) my favorite VEI character since Harbinger #1 hit the stands.

I also called he was evil back in the discussions of that first arc. And before some smart *SQUEE* comes along and says "but we don't know that he's evil..." - he's evil. Get over it. It's awesome.

He certainly seems to be a villain, attempting to control things like Harada. So yes, I agree with you. Cool analysis of him, too. That's an interesting take, that he wants the conflict between Pete and Harada. I didn't get that out of the Bleeding Monk 0 issue, but you may be right. I'll have to read that again and think about it. He definitely threw Pete under the bus in the Harbinger Wars, totally played him. And I think you're right he's been playing Harada too.

But all that seems to support my contention that Pete is not going to be the Harbinger who dies. I think he was a long shot anyway, but I think this Bleeding Monk stuff really puts him off the table.

jakgrimm · Post by **jakgrimm** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:18 pm

Based on the cover where Faith is kissing Torque I think its gonna be Torque. Hope he fathers Magus before he goes

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:38 pm

My quick theory

Peter has his first mind squall and kills Flamingo (I've mentioned this idea in past threads so its not really new - but I think Peter going into a mind squall can explain how and why a renegade dies and why the bleeding monk see's him as the Destroyer)

The pain that this causes makes him decide to hang it up for the time being (until issue #25 when he finally faces off against Harada)

But thats why we don't see Pete on the Armor Hunter covers. He decides to bow out from the fight and get his *SQUEE* together.

I also think Kris can be the one that gets killed ... but I'll go with the idea that Kris will be the one to try and get Pete under control and back into the game (and that's why she isn't on any of the covers either).

Alternatively,
Harada also could be the one that kills flamingo (it actually says in the solicits that Harada is the one that causes the death)
and because of that grief - Pete goes into a mind squall .. that puts him out of commission for Armor Hunters ...but he comes back for issue #25.

Phoenix8008 · Post by **Phoenix8008** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:32 pm

Many interesting theories. I have another.

Remember what happened in the VH1 title when Harada first tried to have Peter killed? BOOOOOOOOM!!! What if we got a much bigger boom than that leading to Peter being known as 'The Destroyer'. Also, Peter's big boom could be what kills him teammate. Where this would leave the team for issue 25, I don't know. I really don't want a repeat of VH1 Harbinger #25. Pete and Harada fight and tear up a lot of real estate. Harada goes into a coma and Pete disappears. That's where the original series faltered. I don't think they'll make that mistake again, but we'll have to wait and see.

bygranddesign · Post by **bygranddesign** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:12 pm

Yeah, Pete disappearing again would be a mistake

if they wanted to shake things up?

How about re-titling Harbinger after issue #25 as Harbinger: Gen Zero. It could be about Harada and the Gen Zero kids with Cronus being more of the main character.

And then have a separate title called Renegades - with Peter leading a couple of original characters + some new Gen Zero characters that revolted and left the Harbinger foundation.

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