Harbinger #15 Discussion

[bygranddesign]

So I've been pondering this issue since Wednesday and I read it a third time. Torque's dead. I'm sure. Dysart is an evil genius. I hate him. He intentionally came up with a way to make Torque an interesting character that had depth - not just a throwaway character like in VH1. He did this to make us all think he wouldn't kill him this time around. Then, he lures us in thinking he's going to rehash the relationship between him and Kris only to have her to be the one to kill him. He is truly evil.

completely agree

From the brilliant origin issue (#8) all the way to his heart wrenching bloody end with issue #15 - Torque will go down as one of my favorite and most memorable comic book characters

He wasn't a dumb simple meat head like the original. He was an insecure cripple living out a fantasy. And within that fantasy he was a muscle bound homophobic, sexist jerk but that was all part of his hard shell projection - inside he was still a torn up neglected child. This was a multi-layered complex character and narrative. The thing that hasn't even been touched on is the responsibility that Peter has in all this - He recklessly activated someone who was clearly unstable and not fit to have this sort of power. And now he is dead and by the hands of a girl that he also has responsibility for and probably shouldn't be fighting in this war. Harada would have never activated someone like Torque or involved someone like Kris in his organization. Someone like Saturn who Harada sacrificed for his own preservation - was someone that trained to be a soldier and understood that responsibility. That's why I think it is important that Torque is DEAD because it furthers this good/bad gray area that is the point of this book.

And the end of issue 15 is where Dysart truly shows his evil genius ... after all these issues of John Torkelson playing this fantasy superhero "meat head" named Torque.

Kris finally gets him to lower his shield so he can become himself again confronting all his insecurities and grief

Only to have him beaten to a bloody pulp with a skateboard

evil.

genius.

[KXXX]

If he's really dead, which I'm doubting, maybe he'll at least pop up in Deadside.

[Phoenix8008]

Haven't read the issue yet, but I really hope Torque isn't dead. I'm still hoping this whole 'Perfect Day' arc is mostly just in their heads and not in any way a reflection of reality. But I wouldn't put it past Dysart to do it the way some people are thinking he has. Time will tell.

[BugsySig]

JD swore Torque would last longer this time than the first time around...

If Torque really is dead, he lasted exactly ONE more issue than his VH1 counterpart...

Well played, Mr. Dysart. Well played.

[kjjohanson]

Yeah, I got to read Harbinger #15 earlier this evening before leaving home for work. I enjoyed it, for the most part. I didn't care for the kiss between Charlene and Kris, but it did bring some insight into why Kris is so sensitive any time Torque uses the word 'gay' in a manner which she considers to be derogatory.

Is the writer (Joshua Dysart) perhaps trying to allude that Kris is being sensitive about this because she herself may have an attraction towards females? Personally, I don't know and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Kris possibly being gay doesn't add very much to what I feel is already an interesting story.

That not a matter of being "so sensitive," that's a matter of pointing out that someone is acting like an *SQUEE*. But the important part I think is that Kris realizes that Torque is probably unaware that he's acting like an *SQUEE*.

[Uncle Yusuf]

Yeah, I got to read Harbinger #15 earlier this evening before leaving home for work. I enjoyed it, for the most part. I didn't care for the kiss between Charlene and Kris, but it did bring some insight into why Kris is so sensitive any time Torque uses the word 'gay' in a manner which she considers to be derogatory.

Is the writer (Joshua Dysart) perhaps trying to allude that Kris is being sensitive about this because she herself may have an attraction towards females? Personally, I don't know and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Kris possibly being gay doesn't add very much to what I feel is already an interesting story.

That not a matter of being "so sensitive," that's a matter of pointing out that someone is acting like an *SQUEE*. But the important part I think is that Kris realizes that Torque is probably unaware that he's acting like an *SQUEE*.

What is a *SQUEE*?

[Uncle Yusuf]

JD swore Torque would last longer this time than the first time around...

If Torque really is dead, he lasted exactly ONE more issue than his VH1 counterpart...

Well played, Mr. Dysart. Well played.

Lol. I loved this.

[lorddunlow]

Yeah, I got to read Harbinger #15 earlier this evening before leaving home for work. I enjoyed it, for the most part. I didn't care for the kiss between Charlene and Kris, but it did bring some insight into why Kris is so sensitive any time Torque uses the word 'gay' in a manner which she considers to be derogatory.

Is the writer (Joshua Dysart) perhaps trying to allude that Kris is being sensitive about this because she herself may have an attraction towards females? Personally, I don't know and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Kris possibly being gay doesn't add very much to what I feel is already an interesting story.

That not a matter of being "so sensitive," that's a matter of pointing out that someone is acting like an *SQUEE*. But the important part I think is that Kris realizes that Torque is probably unaware that he's acting like an *SQUEE*.

What is a *SQUEE*?

The board censors vulgar words into *SQUEE*

He probably said he was a *SQUEE* - hehe - see it just did it again.

French for shower, Massengil, Summer's Eve, you get the point.

Alternatively, he could be saying he is a penis, short nickname for Richard

This is fun.


I still have no custom!

[The Dirt Gang]

It's like we're watching a dream sequence, and one that is a shared group dream. You do things in your dreams you wouldn't necessarily even recognize in a waking state as something you desire to do.

Again, who's the sandman here? We see Torque getting his dream of a metal show, Faith getting her fantasy of a date with Pete, Kris being free of her burdens (worry about her parent's health and finances, Harada, etc) & her inhibitions (hello bikini and sexual experimentation), Flamingo getting to party and be center stage. But what's Pete's dream? I know he's fond of Faith, but I don't think it was his perfect day to have a date with her. I say this because of HW - he would have been far more worried about her being a part of the fighting if there was more than friendship there. Like Harada with Griffon - he tried to prevent her from the PRS battle.


Now, who do we know that can psychically project places and events into someone's mind? Besides Harada, who is busy with Bloodshot? Bleeding Monk? I vote for him as being the opposing force trying to wake the kids up. He would have no compunction about using Kris to "kill" her friends, no matter how much it damaged her mentally. She is, afterall, "lesser" than they in his and Harada's eyes.

Great take on this issue, Pixierosa! I also vote for the Bleeding Monk. There was something about the ocean and the waves that reminding me of blood and continuously bleeding. Both blood and water in a religious sense are "used" for cleansing ones soul or sins. This would also make sense with this being a hallucination and Kris trying to wake the others up.

It was definitely a *SQUEE* up moment and at first I thought Dysart had jumped the shark. I hope this isn't the way they take Torque out since there is still much to be explored with his character.

[kjjohanson]

Yeah, I got to read Harbinger #15 earlier this evening before leaving home for work. I enjoyed it, for the most part. I didn't care for the kiss between Charlene and Kris, but it did bring some insight into why Kris is so sensitive any time Torque uses the word 'gay' in a manner which she considers to be derogatory.

Is the writer (Joshua Dysart) perhaps trying to allude that Kris is being sensitive about this because she herself may have an attraction towards females? Personally, I don't know and I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, Kris possibly being gay doesn't add very much to what I feel is already an interesting story.

That not a matter of being "so sensitive," that's a matter of pointing out that someone is acting like an *SQUEE*. But the important part I think is that Kris realizes that Torque is probably unaware that he's acting like an *SQUEE*.

What is a *SQUEE*?

The board censors vulgar words into *SQUEE*

He probably said he was a *SQUEE* - hehe - see it just did it again.

French for shower, Massengil, Summer's Eve, you get the point.

Alternatively, he could be saying he is a penis, short nickname for Richard

This is fun.


I still have no custom!

There was actually a clue there in the use of "an" rather than "a"; think "donkey"

[kjjohanson]

It hadn't occurred to me until just yesterday, but *if* all is at it appears to be (although I still don't think it is), then VEI pretty much just said with this issue, "Yeah, we don't really have any interest in the Gold Key characters." I'd love to see a couple of other similar scenes, such as seeing Selski successfully shut down the reactor without consequence.

[BugsySig]

It hadn't occurred to me until just yesterday, but *if* all is at it appears to be (although I still don't think it is), then VEI pretty much just said with this issue, "Yeah, we don't really have any interest in the Gold Key characters." I'd love to see a couple of other similar scenes, such as seeing Selski successfully shut down the reactor without consequence.

Can you clarify?

[The Dirt Gang]

While I'm hoping this is some kind of dream-state, it would actually be pretty awesome if we had to see her carry this dark secret forever.

In another year, Torque will have been replaced and you won't miss him all that much -- but Kris having murdered one of her own team mates... that *SQUEE* is forever.

Are you suggesting this is an analogy for STDs? I mean Kris goes to a rave, then ends up in bed with Torque and now has something that will stay with her forever, i.e. herpes virus. Very interesting take, jmatt

[BugsySig]

While I'm hoping this is some kind of dream-state, it would actually be pretty awesome if we had to see her carry this dark secret forever.

In another year, Torque will have been replaced and you won't miss him all that much -- but Kris having murdered one of her own team mates... that *SQUEE* is forever.

Are you suggesting this is an analogy for STDs? I mean Kris goes to a rave, then ends up in bed with Torque and now has something that will stay with her forever, i.e. herpes virus. Very interesting take, jmatt

Actually a very good analogy.

[lorddunlow]

It hadn't occurred to me until just yesterday, but *if* all is at it appears to be (although I still don't think it is), then VEI pretty much just said with this issue, "Yeah, we don't really have any interest in the Gold Key characters." I'd love to see a couple of other similar scenes, such as seeing Selski successfully shut down the reactor without consequence.

Can you clarify?

+1 I also don't follow.

Although ghetto Seleski thong would be great.

Edit: noticed autocorrect fail. Decided universe needed to say that and left it as is.

Also just realized the GK3 thing - no Torque/Kris hookup, no repeat of Magnus origin.

[The Dirt Gang]

So I've been pondering this issue since Wednesday and I read it a third time. Torque's dead. I'm sure. Dysart is an evil genius. I hate him. He intentionally came up with a way to make Torque an interesting character that had depth - not just a throwaway character like in VH1. He did this to make us all think he wouldn't kill him this time around. Then, he lures us in thinking he's going to rehash the relationship between him and Kris only to have her to be the one to kill him. He is truly evil.

Good call.

[bribri]

JD swore Torque would last longer this time than the first time around...

If Torque really is dead, he lasted exactly ONE more issue than his VH1 counterpart...

Well played, Mr. Dysart. Well played.

Except that in the original series Torque died in issue #6...

[lorddunlow]

Except that in the original series Torque died in issue #6...

He appeared in issue #1 and died in #6 - He was in 6 issues

VEI - appeared in issue #8 and died in #15 - He was in 7 issues.

[bribri]

Except that in the original series Torque died in issue #6...

He appeared in issue #1 and died in #6 - He was in 6 issues

VEI - appeared in issue #8 and died in #15 - He was in 7 issues.

Got it. Thanks!

[Phoenix8008]

It hadn't occurred to me until just yesterday, but *if* all is at it appears to be (although I still don't think it is), then VEI pretty much just said with this issue, "Yeah, we don't really have any interest in the Gold Key characters." I'd love to see a couple of other similar scenes, such as seeing Selski successfully shut down the reactor without consequence.

Can you clarify?

If you're asking for clarification on why Kris (apperantly) killing Torque means VEI is totally writing off the Gold Key characters, it would be because in the original series Kris got pregnant by Torque and then Solar took that baby to the future and he grew up to be Magnus, Robot Fighter. So if they make the whole pregnancy impossible, then there can be no Magnus (or at least not by the same parents).

[Heath]

In V1, Torque being Magnus's father actually made sense given Magnus's abilities. It's almost like Torque was created just for that. That would not make as much sense in the new Valiant given that Torque was just a psychic projection. There's no law saying Torque and Kris have to be Magnus's parents. His parents could be anybody in the new Valiant so I don't think it's an official statement of disinterest in the Gold Key characters. I'm sure VEI would love to get them if they could, but are doing just fine without them.

[bygranddesign]

In V1, Torque being Magnus's father actually made sense given Magnus's abilities. It's almost like Torque was created just for that. That would not make as much sense in the new Valiant given that Torque was just a psychic projection. There's no law saying Torque and Kris have to be Magnus's parents. His parents could be anybody in the new Valiant so I don't think it's an official statement of disinterest in the Gold Key characters. I'm sure VEI would love to get them if they could, but are doing just fine without them.

+1, these are re-imagined characters - so the origins of each can be very different from the original

I'm still hoping Magnus, Solar and Turok can be acquired by VEI .... (hopefully secretly) ... wouldn't it be *SQUEE* awesome to turn to the last page of Unity #1 and see a full splash page of Solar taking on X-O

[kjjohanson]

There's no law saying Torque and Kris have to be Magnus's parents. His parents could be anybody in the new Valiant so I don't think it's an official statement of disinterest in the Gold Key characters.

Yes, I realize that they can tweak things any way they want to. But if you did want to send a firm message that says "not interested" this is how you'd do it.

[Heath]

There's no law saying Torque and Kris have to be Magnus's parents. His parents could be anybody in the new Valiant so I don't think it's an official statement of disinterest in the Gold Key characters.

Yes, I realize that they can tweak things any way they want to. But if you did want to send a firm message that says "not interested" this is how you'd do it.

But why even send that message? Doesn't make sense. I'm sure they'd be interested if the deal was right. No need to burn a bridge. I think you're overthinking it and this is in absolute no way related to whether VEI is interested in the GK characters. This is all about the story and the characters, not about sending some message to Classic Media. They could do that with an email.

[lorddunlow]

I think it is more a case of Joshua Dysart screwing with everyone's heads. I have seriously been reflecting on this issue probably every 2-3 hours since I read it Wednesday night. If the Bleeding Monk is behind this - I definitely called correctly that he was evil.

I'm not sure it's him though. I'm still betting on aliens. The only way that it's not is if Kris was referencing alien thoughts with her alien vibe in this dream or whatever it is.

I'm actually going to read back through Harbinger Wars with a fine-toothed comb to see if I can pick up any clues. Just a little over 3 weeks until we get some resolution. Gotta figure it out. It's driving me insane.

This coupled with my lack of custom title is almost too much to handle!