Forbidden planet SUPPORTS VALIANT, WITH PERSUASION FROM ME

[Mark Fuller]

Can I just ay that as a recent Valiant fan and a newcomer to these boards I'm a bit disappointed to see the level of personal abuse thrown at a guy politely making a couple of pessimistic points about Valiant. I really hope that sort of thing is not the norm around here.

That said, I think the pessimism is worth keeping in mind but unfounded at this point. My guess is that the Valiant titles over performed at launch and are dropping to expected levels. If the drop offs continue over the next year, rather than the numbers level out, we may be in trouble. So far though the titles have been universally well received, so I'd hope there will be enough new interest generated to keep healthy if not spectacular numbers.

[Phantom..]

Can I just ay that as a recent Valiant fan and a newcomer to these boards I'm a bit disappointed to see the level of personal abuse thrown at a guy politely making a couple of pessimistic points about Valiant. I really hope that sort of thing is not the norm around here.

A difference if opinion, is just that.
I am glad that their is someone outside having a look at valiant.
I don't agree that they will go under in 6 months, I think their sales are quite good for a new company. But I am not a comic retailer.
Come early next year, when their is a new jumping on point with harbinger wars and planet war with xo - I am hoping numbers pick up.
Nb - I don't think early orginal valiant sales rocketed JUST because of the boom in comics. Great stories then a massive crossover lead them to that, GETTING people on board with free unity comic was a great ,marketing idea.
I wonder what valiant have in store?

[Savant]

Can I just ay that as a recent Valiant fan and a newcomer to these boards I'm a bit disappointed to see the level of personal abuse thrown at a guy politely making a couple of pessimistic points about Valiant. I really hope that sort of thing is not the norm around here.

Personally, I found the sudden turn in the discussion to be immensely entertaining.

Plus, it's interesting getting a different point-of-view.

I think Valiant will do alright, but time will tell.

[Carson]

It was really his misleading chart I was heaping the majority of my abuse on.



I stand by the fact that this is a place for fans that love and want to grow Valiant, not "so-called fans" that create crappy misleading charts to trumpet the demise of Valiant.

Further, if this guy is trying to save Valiant, what has he tangibly done to help them?

[Carson]

Q: also how could shadowman be declining if theres only be one issue sold out?

A: because that chart is the construct of a pessimist, trying to illustrate a point with an inaccurate info graphic. I'm glad others are taking note of its inaccuracies.

[Carson]

Can I just ay that as a recent Valiant fan and a newcomer to these boards I'm a bit disappointed to see the level of personal abuse thrown at a guy politely making a couple of pessimistic points about Valiant. I really hope that sort of thing is not the norm around here.

The fact he constructed a misleading chart to illustrate his point shows an effort to hurt Valiant.

How about taking that energy to do something to HELP Valiant?

[Chiclo]

Q: also how could shadowman be declining if theres only be one issue sold out?

A: because that chart is the construct of a pessimist, trying to illustrate a point with an inaccurate info graphic. I'm glad others are taking note of its inaccuracies.

The chart is wholly made-up. Matching the colours in the legend to the graph, he claims X-O 1 sold the least of all the #1s and Bloodshot is the highest selling of the five books when the numbers above the pretty colours say the exact opposite in both cases.

[greg]

This has been on my website for about 10 years.

http://www.valiantfan.com/valiant/printchart.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Notice how there's no growth until around the 14th month. Valiant is currently at month 7th.

I'm not saying Valiant is on its way to another Turok #1 high point, because that was caused by the craziness in the industry.

I am saying that Valiant was successful in the past, but it wouldn't have looked successful in its 7th month because they were losing 5,000 to 20,000 per title per month.

[FormerReader]

Can I just ay that as a recent Valiant fan and a newcomer to these boards I'm a bit disappointed to see the level of personal abuse thrown at a guy politely making a couple of pessimistic points about Valiant. I really hope that sort of thing is not the norm around here.

That said, I think the pessimism is worth keeping in mind but unfounded at this point. My guess is that the Valiant titles over performed at launch and are dropping to expected levels. If the drop offs continue over the next year, rather than the numbers level out, we may be in trouble. So far though the titles have been universally well received, so I'd hope there will be enough new interest generated to keep healthy if not spectacular numbers.

Mark on principle, I agree with you. There is no reason to throw insults at someone who disagrees with you (Though I have done it myself in the past).

That being said if one comes onto any fan website and provides inaccurate data to prove a point they need to expect some flack. The proper way to get his point across should have been to talk about the declining numbers and express his concerns about them.

Honestly though who cares what Forbidden Planet says? They are not going to determine whether Valiant survives or not. The fans will.

[BugsySig]

1 - Too early to predict where or when the sales will level off at. All books drop. Justice league has dropped that amount in less than a year and it is the flagship book of DC Comics that launched the New 52.

2 - Ed at Paradise was the 2,000 orders (not readers) that dropped between XO 5 & 6. He ran a promotion through this site in order to recieve all the variants. XO #1 also relaunched the entire line, so that explains the added inflation for that book.

3 - If you don't want to sell strawberry ice cream anymore because only 2 people order it, you take it off the menu then pursuade them to try something else. You don't keep ordering strawberry ice cream then tell them they should try chocolate instead because the strawberry isn't a big seller.

4 - Market share for VALIANT is increasing. So while each book may be falling, more VALIANT books are being purchased on a monthly basis.

[greg]

Using the Comichron.com Top 300 monthly data...
and taking into consideration that each comic shop has a fairly constant budget from month-to-month...
We have to see how the comic shops have chosen to use their budget with all the publishing choices available.

So, looking at comic shops and the money they've put into Valiant (as a percent of the sales for the industry in each month):

May 2012 - Valiant = 0.66% of $25.72million = $170,000
June 2012 - Valiant = 0.85% of $24.92million = $212,000
July 2012 - Valiant = 1.04% of $24.9million = $259,000
August 2012 - Valiant = 1.12% of $25.53million = $286,000
September 2012 - Valiant = 1.19% of $22.8million = $271,000
October 2012 - Valiant = 0.89% of $27.03million = $241,000
November 2012 - Valiant = 1.21% of $26.37million = $319,000

Valiant is trying to take a larger portion of the pie.

Let's look at the industry:


...and let's look at Valiant:


Is it true that the average number of copies being sold by Valiant is going down? YES!

But would you rather sell 3 things for $20 each, 5 things for $15 each, or 10 things for $10 each?

Valiant currently has 5 titles averaging 15K each. If they get to 10 titles averaging 10K each,
the Valiant dollars will be higher, even if the print runs are 33% lower.

[ian_house]

Can I just ay that as a recent Valiant fan and a newcomer to these boards I'm a bit disappointed to see the level of personal abuse thrown at a guy politely making a couple of pessimistic points about Valiant. I really hope that sort of thing is not the norm around here.

That said, I think the pessimism is worth keeping in mind but unfounded at this point. My guess is that the Valiant titles over performed at launch and are dropping to expected levels. If the drop offs continue over the next year, rather than the numbers level out, we may be in trouble. So far though the titles have been universally well received, so I'd hope there will be enough new interest generated to keep healthy if not spectacular numbers.

Mark on principle, I agree with you. There is no reason to throw insults at someone who disagrees with you (Though I have done it myself in the past).

That being said if one comes onto any fan website and provides inaccurate data to prove a point they need to expect some flack. The proper way to get his point across should have been to talk about the declining numbers and express his concerns about them.

Honestly though who cares what Forbidden Planet says? They are not going to determine whether Valiant survives or not. The fans will.

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order. If you go back and read Thomas's post it wasn't even presented as fact, just an anecdote and opinion.

Welcome to the board ThomasC22, we aren't all d-icks because we've given away comics or had some correspondance with Valiant staff. I don't fully agree but as the responses show some people get a little too involved.

Enjoyed seeing those stats laid out Greg I don't think they are major concerns, I think if they drop under 10,000 then theres a real issue and then they would be about 6 months away from folding, but I think they'll all level out at around the 12,000-13,000 level for a while (maybe until the big crossover) like most indies and smaller Marvel/DC books. The stat of dropping 60% I feel is no way near as bad as a Marvel/DC book dropping that much as alot of board members here were buying insane numbers of multiples of the 1st few issues to show their support, something that people don't feel the need to do with Marvel/DC... therefore the drop tells me that they haven't lost as many readers as a Marvel/DC book that loses 60%. Anyway ramble over, let's try to be civil and enjoy Valiant whilst it's here (whether it's 6 monts or 60 years )

[GGSAE]

Ahhh Greg, the voice of reason. You need to get the guy who did the X-O QR voice explain your text verbatim, it would feel like it's coming from above, haha.

And Thomas (and also for Mark that questioned our interrogation of Thomas), you have to expect to receive criticism when you come to a Valiant Message Board, and sprout off a bunch of negative propaganda. You say you're a fan (when that's the easiest underhanded approach, right), 'hey I'm a fan, I'm with you guys, but....", and you've been lurking here for years, but I don't know that.

All I see is one of the MANY internet trolls that have come here (in the 7.5 yrs I've been here almost every day), with bad intentions. I'm not saying that's the case, but with no credibility whatsoever, you have to expect us to be weary. Especially with your generalizations regarding Valiant fans behavior in their LCS. That is so absurd I don't even know where to begin...

[Mark Fuller]

Using the Comichron.com Top 300 monthly data...
and taking into consideration that each comic shop has a fairly constant budget from month-to-month...
We have to see how the comic shops have chosen to use their budget with all the publishing choices available.

So, looking at comic shops and the money they've put into Valiant (as a percent of the sales for the industry in each month):

May 2012 - Valiant = 0.66% of $25.72million = $170,000
June 2012 - Valiant = 0.85% of $24.92million = $212,000
July 2012 - Valiant = 1.04% of $24.9million = $259,000
August 2012 - Valiant = 1.12% of $25.53million = $286,000
September 2012 - Valiant = 1.19% of $22.8million = $271,000
October 2012 - Valiant = 0.89% of $27.03million = $241,000
November 2012 - Valiant = 1.21% of $26.37million = $319,000

Valiant is trying to take a larger portion of the pie.

Let's look at the industry:


...and let's look at Valiant:


Is it true that the average number of copies being sold by Valiant is going down? YES!

But would you rather sell 3 things for $20 each, 5 things for $15 each, or 10 things for $10 each?

Valiant currently has 5 titles averaging 15K each. If they get to 10 titles averaging 10K each,
the Valiant dollars will be higher, even if the print runs are 33% lower.

Very interesting to note how rises correlate to new titles being launched, with a major drop coming in the months without a first issue. If Valiant can keep the floor for regular months without new titles at about 10,000 copies per book and then have a quarterly spike for new titles and major marketing initiatives then I think we can call the whole endeaver a huge success. Anything else would be gravy.

[grendeljd]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order.

Someone get a new leash for Carson, he was off-the-chain & absolutely rabid, there!

And Mark is just upset because he wants to be Rotwak in the new Shadowman movie...

In all seriousness, I think that ThomasC22 just hit on a couple of 'raw nerves' there - the responses are not indicative of the usual actions of either of those members, nor the board as a whole... I think we are all pretty good peeps 'round here!

[FormerReader]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order.

Someone get a new leash for Carson, he was off-the-chain & absolutely rabid, there!

And Mark is just upset because he wants to be Rotwak in the new Shadowman movie...

In all seriousness, I think that ThomasC22 just hit on a couple of 'raw nerves' there - the responses are not indicative of the usual actions of either of those members, nor the board as a whole... I think we are all pretty good peeps 'round here!

True. I have found members here to be very level headed and good people.

[GGSAE]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order.

Someone get a new leash for Carson, he was off-the-chain & absolutely rabid, there!

And Mark is just upset because he wants to be Rotwak in the new Shadowman movie...

In all seriousness, I think that ThomasC22 just hit on a couple of 'raw nerves' there - the responses are not indicative of the usual actions of either of those members, nor the board as a whole... I think we are all pretty good peeps 'round here!

True. I have found members here to be very level headed and good people.

Go *SQUEE* yourself!

[FormerReader]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order.

Someone get a new leash for Carson, he was off-the-chain & absolutely rabid, there!

And Mark is just upset because he wants to be Rotwak in the new Shadowman movie...

In all seriousness, I think that ThomasC22 just hit on a couple of 'raw nerves' there - the responses are not indicative of the usual actions of either of those members, nor the board as a whole... I think we are all pretty good peeps 'round here!

True. I have found members here to be very level headed and good people.

Go *SQUEE* yourself!

[Mark Fuller]

I agree, I'm a bit shocked at the treatment by 2 members in this thread (Carson and MarkRoseHFX) being told to leave and that he'd be hated is a bit out of order.

Someone get a new leash for Carson, he was off-the-chain & absolutely rabid, there!

And Mark is just upset because he wants to be Rotwak in the new Shadowman movie...

In all seriousness, I think that ThomasC22 just hit on a couple of 'raw nerves' there - the responses are not indicative of the usual actions of either of those members, nor the board as a whole... I think we are all pretty good peeps 'round here!

True. I have found members here to be very level headed and good people.

Me too, which is why I was a little surprised at some of the name calling. An well, we all love Valiant and passions run high. Fair enough. Please though, don't scare off us newbies! That more than anything else will do for Valiant's long term success.

[Paul Nolan]

Using the Comichron.com Top 300 monthly data...

Excellent bits of Data

also worth noting is that November 2012 was the first month in years where 10 comics broke 100,000 sales.

In a market where DC and Marvel are aggressively vying for the available spend of retailers, to see that monthly spend on Valiant increasing is a great thing.

[bribri]

Please ignore this post. I was responding to something on Page 3 and didn't realize there was a Page 4. Damn it.

Move along. There's nothing to see here.

[Phantom..]

Gregs chart is really good news!

As for forbidden planet - today I asked why their are no shelf copies.
Both of the workers said they had to take them for standing orders.
They went on to explain (they assumed I didn't know) that they order three months in advance, so if orders increase then shelf copies go it standing orders first.

They have increased standing orders of all titles, either by one or two issues.

Great news!
Now I am really con fussed what the manager was talking about.
Maybe just lack of advertising, which he did emphasis.
At forbidden planet all advertisements in store are paid for - no free advertising. Where I used to work - well put up posters everywhere that we got in previews.


I also mentioned they already have art and covers for fcbd 2013. Just to make sure they know valiant is going to stick arround.
Do you get free posters in 'shop' versions of previews anymore?

[carter3175]

Holy crap I missed a lot! This was very entertaining!

[MarkRoseHFX]

Well I apologize if I offended anyone but I felt he was incredibly rude right from his first post and I took offense to some of the things he said. Take a look around i've had discussions where I don't agree with people and didn't "attack" them just discussed it. I felt he deserved it whether he was new to the boards or not.

[ian_house]

Well I apologize if I offended anyone but I felt he was incredibly rude right from his first post and I took offense to some of the things he said. Take a look around i've had discussions where I don't agree with people and didn't "attack" them just discussed it. I felt he deserved it whether he was new to the boards or not.

S'cool, hopefully he'll stick around and all will be well. Just passions running high and all that jazz