X-O Manowar #5

[etos45]

And I think we're almost to the point where people are ranting about people ranting about people ranting about variants.

Inception...

(and I don't appreciate your ranting about us ranting about them ranting about those guys ranting about variants!)

[400yrs]

And I think we're almost to the point where people are ranting about people ranting about people ranting about variants.

[paradise]

I for one think most of the Variants have been done well, the idea of having two inter-locking characters facing off is pretty unique (and crafty in that it forces the completist to get both). But on the subject of variants, we do they have to have 4 variant covers showing a new character? Wouldn't the new character be enough drive for the reader to buy those issues? And if that is not the case, why not just have just a 1:20, or a line-wide variant. The reason we're complaining about the variants because we're voicing our concern in hopes VEI adjusts the distribution model so that it's not nearly as costly, because long-term it's not sustainable for many of us to buy every single new valiant comic, especially with all variants thrown in. If you do a 1:100 line wide variant, they'll be a lot cheaper, but the market won't be flooded with nearly as many covers, so more collectors will go after them, and they'll be cheaper because more issues will be printed.

This is my post on the subject matter, I promise. I was going to quit earlier, but this post got to me, so I think I have to address it.

Nothing personal at all, but I think you are missing the point of variants here. IF the point of variants is to get stores to order more, then on important issues (#1s, important character introductions) it is important to get ALL stores, not just small stores who order less than 20 copies, to step up and get more product into the stores. That is the reason for higher level variants on certain issues. A store that orders 30 copies, which is a larger store, will order 50 because they know they will get a 1:50 and 2 of 1:20. Those three books help cover the cost of the extra 20 copies that store is unsure they will sell. But by getting those copies, if the issue is really important, that store is now covered against selling out. See how simple it is, EVERYONE wins.

Also, Valiant does not make the price point of variants, only the ratio at which stores receive them. The marketplace sets that point. And the fact that Valiant variants are priced pretty well means that there is a lot of interest in them, which means that there is a lot of interest in Valiant. Dynamite 1:20 variants fetch $5.99-7.99 on Ebay, while Valiant ones do $15-20. What does that tell you? THe product's quality sets the price for Variants.

Wouldn't it also be less risk for a retailer for the retailer to try and sell 5, 5-10$ variants, as opposed to trying to sell just 1 $50 variant?

What store would be interested in ordering UP to get variants that will sell for $5-10 when regular covers sell for $4? I don't think you guys are thinking this through when you are posting stuff like this. The incentive has to be enticing to get people to order more. $10 variant is not enticing, unless I have to order 2-3 extra copies to get them, and that does not help anyone.

[Aram]

I for one think most of the Variants have been done well, the idea of having two inter-locking characters facing off is pretty unique (and crafty in that it forces the completist to get both). But on the subject of variants, we do they have to have 4 variant covers showing a new character? Wouldn't the new character be enough drive for the reader to buy those issues? And if that is not the case, why not just have just a 1:20, or a line-wide variant. The reason we're complaining about the variants because we're voicing our concern in hopes VEI adjusts the distribution model so that it's not nearly as costly, because long-term it's not sustainable for many of us to buy every single new valiant comic, especially with all variants thrown in. If you do a 1:100 line wide variant, they'll be a lot cheaper, but the market won't be flooded with nearly as many covers, so more collectors will go after them, and they'll be cheaper because more issues will be printed.

This is my post on the subject matter, I promise. I was going to quit earlier, but this post got to me, so I think I have to address it.

Nothing personal at all, but I think you are missing the point of variants here. IF the point of variants is to get stores to order more, then on important issues (#1s, important character introductions) it is important to get ALL stores, not just small stores who order less than 20 copies, to step up and get more product into the stores. That is the reason for higher level variants on certain issues. A store that orders 30 copies, which is a larger store, will order 50 because they know they will get a 1:50 and 2 of 1:20. Those three books help cover the cost of the extra 20 copies that store is unsure they will sell. But by getting those copies, if the issue is really important, that store is now covered against selling out. See how simple it is, EVERYONE wins.

Also, Valiant does not make the price point of variants, only the ratio at which stores receive them. The marketplace sets that point. And the fact that Valiant variants are priced pretty well means that there is a lot of interest in them, which means that there is a lot of interest in Valiant. Dynamite 1:20 variants fetch $5.99-7.99 on Ebay, while Valiant ones do $15-20. What does that tell you? The product's quality sets the price for Variants.

Wouldn't it also be less risk for a retailer for the retailer to try and sell 5, 5-10$ variants, as opposed to trying to sell just 1 $50 variant?

What store would be interested in ordering UP to get variants that will sell for $5-10 when regular covers sell for $4? I don't think you guys are thinking this through when you are posting stuff like this. The incentive has to be enticing to get people to order more. $10 variant is not enticing, unless I have to order 2-3 extra copies to get them, and that does not help anyone.

The problem here Ed is this; You are not a consumer. You have said it yourself.

Consumers that were ravenous for every item Valiant publishes are getting quite burnt out on the Variants. I recently had the opportunity to speak with a number of other Comic shop owners and consumers. There is a growing consensus that the consumers do not want them anymore, they are being overdone and frankly it is the 90's gimmicks and over production that led to the crash all over again. They are not that special anymore and from what I've heard in my region less and less people are buying them across the board from all companies.

One comic shop owner summed it up like this; "The Variant market is almost entirely online only now."

If the market is being propelled by incentives that do not appeal to the average consumer going into a comic shop what does that tell you about the future of the market?

As far as the Super High price of Valiant variants, you can attribute that nearly completely to the rabid existing fanbase that contains many completionists. Many of which are beginning to turn. Look at teh price of QRs and then look at your Bloodshot orders. Sure took a long time compared to the X-O and the Harbingers and I never saw you post that your orders were completed even after adding all the extras.

The average consumer does not care about Variants and now even the completionists are beginning not to care. Back in 1992 and 1993, nearly everyone drooled over the Gold Variants though, and guess what? Most still drool today.

[paradise]

The problem here Ed is this; You are not a consumer. You have said it yourself.

Consumers that were ravenous for every item Valiant publishes are getting quite burnt out on the Variants.

Do you mind if I call B U L L S H I T on that statement? If consumers were burned out, publishers would stop doing them. Marketplace demand dictates everything. The problem is that, just like with everything in life, internet is about the 5% minority who makes 99% of the noise. I don't see a lot of people who love variants constantly talking about how much they love them. But the same 5 people on this site constantly put it out there that they dislike them.

OH, and I still sell hundreds of Variants, because when I order I KNOW who will buy them and order accordingly to fit the needs of my customers, whether in the store or here on VFans. SO saying that I am not a consumer is once again B U L L S H I T because I have been in this business for 20 years and I know consumer behavior much better than ANY average consumer. My business uses pretty damn sophisticated software and knowledge to predict consumer behavior in our industry every single month, as we order products on non-returnable basis 2 months before it ships. How could I do it without knowing how a consumer thinks? You tell me.

If the market is being propelled by incentives that do not appeal to the average consumer going into a comic shop what does that tell you about the future of the market?

Why does it matter where people buy variants as long as the goal of having more copies for those who come into stores is accomplished for the publisher and retailer?

As far as the Super High price of Valiant variants, you can attribute that nearly completely to the rabid existing fanbase that contains many completionists. Many of which are beginning to turn. Look at teh price of QRs and then look at your Bloodshot orders. Sure took a long time compared to the X-O and the Harbingers and I never saw you post that your orders were completed even after adding all the extras.

LOL, that's funny. My XO orders, I charged $50 for all 4 covers. Of course they sold out fast. Harbinger I charged $100, and that was before ANY of the books shipped and we were all using existing marketplace comps (real estate term) to create pricing. They did not sell quick, btw, I had to finish them by giving a couple of guys a 2nd set. Bloodshot was the first set I put up knowing the true marketplace, and I charged a fair but not underpriced valued price, and yes, it still has not sold out, only 38 out of 40 have been paid for. But because I charged 40% more, I am totally fine with it. I don't mind having a couple of sets for my local customers, or to put on ebay and easily make money on them. EASILY.

Also, the more I charged for the books, the more "value added" stuff I put into those sets. I predict there will be a pretty good market on this site for those books I inserted at not additional cost.

[R Daneel]

Of course they are missing the point.

At the root of it all, a handful of people are extremely butthurt because they can't have everything.

They can't get every variant.
They can't get every printing.
They can't get every con-exclusive.
They can't get it for "cover price"
They can't get it signed or free.
They can't get a free sketch on the cover.

Boo-*SQUEE*-hoo.

[400yrs]

My business uses pretty damn sophisticated software and knowledge to predict consumer behavior in our industry every single month, as we order products on non-returnable basis 2 months before it ships.

Interesting as I've never heard of that in the comic industry. This really isn't a smart *SQUEE*-ed questions.... this is a serious quesitons..... Do you think you'd be able to see a crash coming via the software?

I predict there will be a pretty good market on this site for those books I inserted at not additional cost.

Definitely agree.

[iwantvaliant]

[Heath]

Only one person is acting butthurt here. Everybody else on both sides of the debate is having a very civil conversation.

[bobby97801]

Only one person is acting butthurt here. Everybody else on both sides of the debate is having a very civil conversation.

+1

[SnotDrip]

butthurt

first CGC boards

now here

oh the horror!

[Donovan]

Only one person is acting butthurt here. Everybody else on both sides of the debate is having a very civil conversation.

I'm not certain an unbiased person would agree with you....

[Aram]

Of course they are missing the point.

At the root of it all, a handful of people are extremely butthurt because they can't have everything.

They can't get every variant.
They can't get every printing.
They can't get every con-exclusive.
They can't get it for "cover price"
They can't get it signed or free.
They can't get a free sketch on the cover.

*SQUEE*.

Going a little overboard there. But how about you examine my view a little more closely?

I have Every Variant.
I have Every Printing.
I have Every Con-Exclusive.
I obviously don't care that it is more than Cover Price or I would not have the above.
I have 2 Signed Comics already plus copies sitting at VEI HQ getting signed.
I would gladly be willing to pay for a sketch on some of my 5 copies of the sketchbooks.

Now add these;

-I was ready and willing to sell every one of my 2800+ comic book collection, including every regular VH1 title, every VH1 Gold, Red and Platinum to ensure that I could buy EVERYTHING that VEI puts out.
-By the end of August I will have a longbox full of VEI.

If the Variants have reached a point where it will turn a person like me away from them due to the excess and presentation, there's a big problem brewing.

[Aram]

The problem here Ed is this; You are not a consumer. You have said it yourself.

Consumers that were ravenous for every item Valiant publishes are getting quite burnt out on the Variants.

Do you mind if I call B U L L S H I T on that statement? If consumers were burned out, publishers would stop doing them.

Riiiiiight. Cause publishers never do anything wrong... ever...

OH, and I still sell hundreds of Variants, because when I order I KNOW who will buy them and order accordingly to fit the needs of my customers, whether in the store or here on VFans. SO saying that I am not a consumer is once again B U L L S H I T because I have been in this business for 20 years and I know consumer behavior much better than ANY average consumer. My business uses pretty damn sophisticated software and knowledge to predict consumer behavior in our industry every single month, as we order products on non-returnable basis 2 months before it ships. How could I do it without knowing how a consumer thinks? You tell me.

I said YOU are not a consumer. You are not. You said so yourself, you do not collect comics. You make your living selling your products to consumers. Being a great salesman is not the same as knowing what people want to buy.

If the market is being propelled by incentives that do not appeal to the average consumer going into a comic shop what does that tell you about the future of the market?

Why does it matter where people buy variants as long as the goal of having more copies for those who come into stores is accomplished for the publisher and retailer?

It matters when the market focuses on things that detract from consumers shopping in local stores. The more people that shop in local stores the more the industry recovers as a whole. The less people shop in stores, the more the industry dies.

As far as the Super High price of Valiant variants, you can attribute that nearly completely to the rabid existing fanbase that contains many completionists. Many of which are beginning to turn. Look at teh price of QRs and then look at your Bloodshot orders. Sure took a long time compared to the X-O and the Harbingers and I never saw you post that your orders were completed even after adding all the extras.

LOL, that's funny. My XO orders, I charged $50 for all 4 covers. Of course they sold out fast. Harbinger I charged $100, and that was before ANY of the books shipped and we were all using existing marketplace comps (real estate term) to create pricing. They did not sell quick, btw, I had to finish them by giving a couple of guys a 2nd set. Bloodshot was the first set I put up knowing the true marketplace, and I charged a fair but not underpriced valued price, and yes, it still has not sold out, only 38 out of 40 have been paid for. But because I charged 40% more, I am totally fine with it. I don't mind having a couple of sets for my local customers, or to put on ebay and easily make money on them. EASILY.

You made my point exactly. You participated in the artificial hyper inflation of the Variants pushing the prices as high as you possibly could in order to maximize profit and thereby helped turn many away from the variants who would have been interested in them before. The higher you pushed them the slower they sold and the more people turned away.

It all comes down to this; if there was only 1 limited Variant for each new title, we would not even be having this discussion, no matter the price or demand. Multiple limited variants are a bad idea.

[GGSAE]

I for one think most of the Variants have been done well, the idea of having two inter-locking characters facing off is pretty unique (and crafty in that it forces the completist to get both). But on the subject of variants, we do they have to have 4 variant covers showing a new character? Wouldn't the new character be enough drive for the reader to buy those issues? And if that is not the case, why not just have just a 1:20, or a line-wide variant. The reason we're complaining about the variants because we're voicing our concern in hopes VEI adjusts the distribution model so that it's not nearly as costly, because long-term it's not sustainable for many of us to buy every single new valiant comic, especially with all variants thrown in. If you do a 1:100 line wide variant, they'll be a lot cheaper, but the market won't be flooded with nearly as many covers, so more collectors will go after them, and they'll be cheaper because more issues will be printed.

This is my post on the subject matter, I promise. I was going to quit earlier, but this post got to me, so I think I have to address it.

Nothing personal at all, but I think you are missing the point of variants here. IF the point of variants is to get stores to order more, then on important issues (#1s, important character introductions) it is important to get ALL stores, not just small stores who order less than 20 copies, to step up and get more product into the stores. That is the reason for higher level variants on certain issues. A store that orders 30 copies, which is a larger store, will order 50 because they know they will get a 1:50 and 2 of 1:20. Those three books help cover the cost of the extra 20 copies that store is unsure they will sell. But by getting those copies, if the issue is really important, that store is now covered against selling out. See how simple it is, EVERYONE wins.

Also, Valiant does not make the price point of variants, only the ratio at which stores receive them. The marketplace sets that point. And the fact that Valiant variants are priced pretty well means that there is a lot of interest in them, which means that there is a lot of interest in Valiant. Dynamite 1:20 variants fetch $5.99-7.99 on Ebay, while Valiant ones do $15-20. What does that tell you? THe product's quality sets the price for Variants.

Wouldn't it also be less risk for a retailer for the retailer to try and sell 5, 5-10$ variants, as opposed to trying to sell just 1 $50 variant?

What store would be interested in ordering UP to get variants that will sell for $5-10 when regular covers sell for $4? I don't think you guys are thinking this through when you are posting stuff like this. The incentive has to be enticing to get people to order more. $10 variant is not enticing, unless I have to order 2-3 extra copies to get them, and that does not help anyone.

Ed you bring up some good points, but I disagree with your theory on the retailers that need to 'step up to the plate' to get a variant. I work in sales, my travels takes me to a lot of comic shops I've never been to before and probably wouldn't bother going to if I didn't have time to kill in between appointments. I've asked each of these small shops about quantity they're buying, how many people are interested, and then I proceed to educate them on fair market values of the variants of each. Even after education, every single owner has said the same thing, the company needs to do more to alleviate the risk i'm taking. One owner told me that some of the other companies offer to buyback inventory, or something along those lines. So for a guy ordering just a handful of copies, ordering up to 20 of a title is far too much inventory risk that could be sitting on his shelf. This particular owner also didn't order any of the second prints. I haven't been to any shop that really had any copies sitting on their shelves...

[Blood of Heroes]

I, for one, enjoy all the ZWH-esque posts in this thread. Keep 'em coming!

[paradise]

Ed you bring up some good points, but I disagree with your theory on the retailers that need to 'step up to the plate' to get a variant. I work in sales, my travels takes me to a lot of comic shops I've never been to before and probably wouldn't bother going to if I didn't have time to kill in between appointments. I've asked each of these small shops about quantity they're buying, how many people are interested, and then I proceed to educate them on fair market values of the variants of each. Even after education, every single owner has said the same thing, the company needs to do more to alleviate the risk i'm taking. One owner told me that some of the other companies offer to buyback inventory, or something along those lines. So for a guy ordering just a handful of copies, ordering up to 20 of a title is far too much inventory risk that could be sitting on his shelf. This particular owner also didn't order any of the second prints. I haven't been to any shop that really had any copies sitting on their shelves...

The biggest problem in this industry is the percentage of retailers who justify their inability to diversify and try new products and opportunities by saying that the people who produce those opportunities do not do enough for them to try them out. These retailers are always negative no matter how you spin it. I am part of a really big retailer online community (CBIA, look it up) and a good percentage of those retailers who are already more educated on consumer behaviors just due to being part of that community, still are a backwards lot. There is an ongoing joke on that site that really does apply to a terribly high percentage of retailers in this industry. It goes like this: "If you offered them a free $20 bill, they would complain that it's not 2 $10 bills". I did not come up with it, but it describes them accurately.

What they do not get is that Diamond only allows certain things to be done by publishers, unless you are one of the big four (Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse) who have Exclusive distribution contracts. Discounts above a certain point are not allowed even if the publisher wants to offer them. Returnability is not allowed, even if the publisher wants to offer it, because Diamond does not want to process it. Variants are the best way to get a store who's got 12 subs to order 20 instead of 14 that they want to order because they do not want to take any chances on their own dime.

Here is your average situation, tell me if it seem unreasonable. A store looks at XO #1 solicited, and goes, OK, let's get 10 copies (standard "throw at the wall see if it sticks" order). Then a Valiant fan (every store has one at least right?) comes in and says that they want any variants the store can get. There are 3 possible replies:

1. Sorry, I am ordering for the store and 20 copies is too much (or translated, "I am stupid, you should go find another store")
2. I can up my order to get you the 1:20 but it will cost you $20 (exact cost at 50% off of 10 additional copies that the retailer has to order, making them free)
3. I can up my order and get you all the variants, and it will cost you XXX (doing the math and figuring out that they will get 2 of the 1:20s and a 1:50, what it costs and what he's willing to do).

Choice #3 is not going to work for every store. That store has to either charge the customer more than fair amount for the 1:50, unless they are smart and see that justifying 40 extra copies,or $80, but knowing the guy is already paying $20 and retailer still has an extra 1:20 plus all those copies, is pretty easy math.

But even choice #2 leads to 10 copies extra, or, in an ideal world, with roughly 3k shops, to 30k extra copies ordered. The answer is not 30k because not every shop will do this, but you do get 10-15k extra copies ordered on a brand new release because of these variants. The reason they are at 1:20 and 1:50 and 1:100 is because that is where retailers are comfortable going up to. It's been proven, through a lot of years of doing variants. It's not random.

Valiant understands that the 1:50 and 1:100 are not something that should happen often. People who complain do not get that these 4 months had 4 #1 issues, so of course there are a lot of variants. But the 1:20 program is a good idea to continue for a while, because if a store owner knows that that one guy will keep getting the 1:20 they will keep ordering extra books, leading to more opportunities of fans who see Valiant's marketing efforts, and want to check out their books, to find those books in stores. Otherwise those marketing efforts are WASTED. Should they continue indefinitely? Hope not. Only while they help, which is subjective, but the publisher is the one who knows best.

[Aram]

That completely fails to address why there are suddenly 5 incentives for a #5 issue, just because ninjak shows up. And from what I hear the 1:20 to 1:50 interlock thereby creating an inconsistancy for 60% of the people who end up with the 1:20's not being able to complete their "puzzle" because the issues dont exist.

If there was only a 1:20 Variant for issue #5 and a 1:100 linewide variant I'd probably still be on the variant bandwagon, accepting but not quite happy.

I don't care if it was such a big deal in an issue that mothergod, solar, turok and Magnus all got pulled out of Armstrongs arse in issue 13... I would not want 4 different covers for that issue.

[bobby97801]

I don't care if it was such a big deal in an issue that mothergod, solar, turok and Magnus all got pulled out of Armstrongs arse in issue 13... I would not want 4 different covers for that issue.

That is messed up.... I can believe Ed is putting a gun to your head and making you buy them. What a jerk
If you don't want to buy them, you don't have too. There are people that will complain no matter what. I would buy toilet paper from Valiant, if they put print on it. I plan on buying everything they have no matter how much they produce because I have missed my favorite characters and I have a sickness.
Keep them coming Valiant

[Aram]

I don't care if it was such a big deal in an issue that mothergod, solar, turok and Magnus all got pulled out of Armstrongs arse in issue 13... I would not want 4 different covers for that issue.

That is messed up.... I can believe Ed is putting a gun to your head and making you buy them. What a jerk
If you don't want to buy them, you don't have too. There are people that will complain no matter what. I would buy toilet paper from Valiant, if they put print on it. I plan on buying everything they have no matter how much they produce because I have missed my favorite characters and I have a sickness.
Keep them coming Valiant

I'd buy toilet paper from them too, and they wouldn't even need to put print on it. That's not the point. The discussion is about Variants.

Hear that VEI? We'd like some branded toilet paper already! Preferably not used...

[400yrs]

I'd buy toilet paper from them too, and they wouldn't even need to put print on it. That's not the point. The discussion is about Variants.

Hear that VEI? We'd like some branded toilet paper already! Preferably not used...

Well............ The blank covers are all white. You could make your own "sketch" and show it off.



I can't believe I just typed that.

[400yrs]

10K+ posts and I'm still an idiot who can't not double post.

[geocarr]

I've asked each of these small shops about quantity they're buying, how many people are interested, and then I proceed to educate them on fair market values of the variants of each. Even after education, every single owner has said the same thing, the company needs to do more to alleviate the risk i'm taking. One owner told me that some of the other companies offer to buyback inventory, or something along those lines. So for a guy ordering just a handful of copies, ordering up to 20 of a title is far too much inventory risk that could be sitting on his shelf. This particular owner also didn't order any of the second prints. I haven't been to any shop that really had any copies sitting on their shelves...

I am part of a really big retailer online community (CBIA, look it up) and a good percentage of those retailers who are already more educated on consumer behaviors just due to being part of that community, still are a backwards lot. There is an ongoing joke on that site that really does apply to a terribly high percentage of retailers in this industry. It goes like this: "If you offered them a free $20 bill, they would complain that it's not 2 $10 bills".

Variants are the best way to get a store who's got 12 subs to order 20 instead of 14 that they want to order because they do not want to take any chances on their own dime.

A store looks at XO #1 solicited, and goes, OK, let's get 10 copies (standard "throw at the wall see if it sticks" order). Then a Valiant fan (every store has one at least right?) comes in and says that they want any variants the store can get. There are 3 possible replies:

1. Sorry, I am ordering for the store and 20 copies is too much (or translated, "I am stupid, you should go find another store")
2. I can up my order to get you the 1:20 but it will cost you $20 (exact cost at 50% off of 10 additional copies that the retailer has to order, making them free)
3. I can up my order and get you all the variants, and it will cost you XXX (doing the math and figuring out that they will get 2 of the 1:20s and a 1:50, what it costs and what he's willing to do).

Choice #3 is not going to work for every store. That store has to either charge the customer more than fair amount for the 1:50, unless they are smart and see that justifying 40 extra copies,or $80, but knowing the guy is already paying $20 and retailer still has an extra 1:20 plus all those copies, is pretty easy math.

But even choice #2 leads to 10 copies extra, or, in an ideal world, with roughly 3k shops, to 30k extra copies ordered.

But the 1:20 program is a good idea to continue for a while, because if a store owner knows that that one guy will keep getting the 1:20 they will keep ordering extra books, leading to more opportunities of fans who see Valiant's marketing efforts, and want to check out their books, to find those books in stores. Otherwise those marketing efforts are WASTED.

IMO, Ed proves and disproves his own point that he keeps repeating in various posts about VEI's variants in his post above.
I agree with his logic of how it can often be in the financial best interest of the retailer to "order up" if the retailer is confident he can sell the variant to at least cover the "extra regular books". That really does make sense. I get it.
However, the faulty assumption in that logic that I haven't seen anyone esle come right and say is that many retailers don't make and likely aren't going to make the most intelligent ordering choices based on sound logic. I'm sorry for how arrogant and condescending that sounds and I invite anyone to prove me wrong. GGSAE and Ed both are saying the same thing in a similar way in their posts above.
Having said that, I also believe there is equally sound logic in the argument that variants can be over-utilized by a publisher and can result in more harm than good to the publisher and retailer, particularly when retailers don't consistently make the most intelligent ordering decisions based on sound logic.

[paradise]

...However, the faulty assumption in that logic that I haven't seen anyone esle come right and say is that many retailers don't make and likely aren't going to make the most intelligent ordering choices based on sound logic. I'm sorry for how arrogant and condescending that sounds and I invite anyone to prove me wrong. GGSAE and Ed both are saying the same thing in a similar way in their posts above.
Having said that, I also believe there is equally sound logic in the argument that variants can be over-utilized by a publisher and can result in more harm than good to the publisher and retailer, particularly when retailers don't consistently make the most intelligent ordering decisions based on sound logic.

I believe my last post does talk about the problem with so many retailers being not too smart. That does not matter in the big picture because of things like Ebay, where every retailer who does make the right decision can get rid of the books not necessarily sellable in his own store to the customers of the dumb shop owners who did not fill the orders. Like I have been saying Marketplace decides everything. Neither Valiant nor the retailers really set the prices for these books, marketplace does. I can say: "a&a #1 variant will be $500". it won't matter because after a few days a market price will be created.

As far as over-utilized variants, NO, it's not possible. If variants for a particular publisher are not received well, they sell for crap, and nobody cares, and the few people who want them can find them on the cheap. If the variants go over well (like it's happening currently with Valiant), then they go for higher prices and the people who can afford to collect them get them. Marketplace decides. It's really that simple.

I guess I should not say it but... If enough people stop getting the Valiant variants, there will be more supply than demand on Ebay and eventually prices will come down. As of now, I can sell every copy I get and more so obviously there are more people asking for them than people complaining about them.

BTW< I would rather be talking about Valiant books and characters, than about variants.

[magnusr]

However, the faulty assumption in that logic that I haven't seen anyone esle come right and say is that many retailers don't make and likely aren't going to make the most intelligent ordering choices based on sound logic.

I am afraid this is a great point, which Ed also touches at. I think too many customers are stuck with dealers that are inflexible for one reason or another (the only one I have available for instance has a business model that works for them and they stick to it). And postage often makes ebay a bad option as well. Without Ed I would have had no chance for the 1:50s (1:20s were bad enough to get here), and for the new variants, ebay will be my only choice.

2. I can up my order to get you the 1:20 but it will cost you $20 (exact cost at 50% off of 10 additional copies that the retailer has to order, making them free)

Here the firm reply is "I can up my order, but it will cost you 19*$6, including all the shipping and taxes."

This example is of course extra bad because of the shipping, but still I am afraid that it is representative, that many customers are stuck which such dealers and that those customers might have made a big commitment and now see that it goes on. Thus these discussions. And as Ed pointed out, the discussions hurt Valiant.

I conclude that all of you discussing here, are in agreement that the market confusion does hurt Valiant.

If I may suggest, maybe it is better to discuss how to educate the dealers than to get frustrated at eachother.

/Magnus