CGC out of hand

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:54 pm

Erskine71 wrote:
Peter Parker wrote: My point is, collectors NEED to stop focusing on the "guide" i.e. Overstreet and start RE-focusing on the MARKET itself. Overstreet has recently taken the NM 9.4 grade OUT OF THE BOOK...know why? because GRADED CGC 9.4 books were extremely volatile, and it was difficult for sellers and buyers to strap down an "average". Overstreet (in an agreed deal with CGC) capitulated, gave in to the pressure.

Probably the best post I've read today on this topic! Great point! What does Overstreet think a Bloodshot 0 platinum is worth & what does the market say? For most rarer Valiants for that matter... Guides can't keep their 'finger' on the pulse of the industry like other forums can these days. ~Erskine

all print media will become second fiddle in the not so distant future

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:01 pm

400yrs wrote:all print media will become second fiddle in the not so distant future

Well, I almost agree. But the people who compile and report for the print media now will still be the most reliable sources of information when the information reaches a different medium. So the print media will just not be printed.

But somebody has to go out and report, analyze, research and witness. And it will be the same kind of people, they'll just be delivering the information in a different way.

Experience in a field will always have a value.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:07 pm

So let me get this straight?...

You go to shows ALL the time, and see RAW NM/M 9.8 level books?...Silver & Golden?..even Bronze?...REALLY???

Are you next going to tell me that these sellers are offering these "pristine" books for what?...selling them for Overstreet Nm-9.2 values?

ANY copy in that standard my friend is ALREADY garnishing 3 to 4 times guide...RAW!!!..It a 9.8...there IS no guide that values such a status,..its at the paramount position of condition in the hobby, the market is the only legitimate analysis of the book.

Tell ya what,...If you can find me NM/M 9.8 Silverage comic books...that are unrestored, and graded "properly", I'll pay you 15% of the total value of my total purchase price after I buy them all. Because, i'm buying them ALL tomorrow if its true, PM me if you really can find them

Come on now...

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:13 pm

Peter Parker wrote:So let me get this straight?...

You go to shows ALL the time, and see RAW NM/M 9.8 level books?...Silver & Golden?..even Bronze?...REALLY???

Are you next going to tell me that these sellers are offering these "pristine" books for what?...selling them for Overstreet Nm-9.2 values?

ANY copy in that standard my friend is ALREADY garnishing 3 to 4 times guide...RAW!!!..It a 9.8...there IS no guide that values such a status,..its at the paramount position of condition in the hobby, the market is the only legitimate analysis of the book.

Not necessarily. Just a few years back I was able to cherrypick several SA spideys from a Mile high II collection at NM guide at my LCS. If you can't afford to and you have patience, you won't always have to pay 3 to 4 times guide.

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:22 pm

I looked back over the post, and not once did I say that I see them at every show. I found some at an auction I attended and a few at a show back in May. The auction was the exception, but it was the estate of a collector that spanned close to 50 years. What I am saying is that these books DO exist raw. You don't see them all the time, and you really have to look hard and be patient. Where did your Batman #232 come from? Was it slabbed back in 1972? The simple fact is that it did come from somewhere, someone noticed it, bought it, and had it slabbed. And they didn't pay 3 to 4 times guide, or they would still be sitting on it.

And yes, these books can be had often at Overstreet prices. I don't know how things are on the coasts, but in the midwest, I haven't had a problem picking up older books at guide or below. These aren't the latest "hot" books, but older books that most collectors today have never even heard of (i.e. Pep, Police, Spirit, EC's, and the like).

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:29 pm

SEE? It can be done! Patience is a big factor in doing it too!

soundoftheuniverse · Post by **soundoftheuniverse** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:19 am

Shakespeare wrote:
think NO SURPRISES is really the reason why I buy graded books more now.
Sound, I'll disagree with you on this. Sometimes I'm surprised when I open a box with a CGC....

Aye, sometimes you are absolutely right, CGC lets things slide and once in a while there is a discrepency as the book doesn't match the condition stated on the label.

My main point was that I'm dissapointed is soo much more often buying raw books through ebay and it's been my experience that CGC dissapoints me less which makes me very happy.

But Shakes I definitely see your point.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:39 am

MagnusRF wrote:SEE? It can be done! Patience is a big factor in doing it too!

That's right! Patience is the key these days. Access to comic books is global now. It's not like when I was a kid and was at the mercy of the LCS' inventory.

CBG reports CGC sale every month. It's amazing to see some comics graded exactly the same by CGC going for quite different prices. Don't get caught in a bidding war, gents!

soundoftheuniverse wrote:Aye, sometimes you are absolutely right!

I personally think it's funny for a seven foot black guy to say "Aye."

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:10 am

soundoftheuniverse wrote: My main point was that I'm dissapointed is soo much more often buying raw books through ebay and it's been my experience that CGC dissapoints me less which makes me very happy.

I can see your point here Sound, as a rule, I'm very careful about anything other than new books on eBay. I make exceptions for known sellers and sellers with large positive feedback numbers. As I've said on here before, if it makes you happy (and doesn't hurt anyone

), DO IT!!

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:44 pm

Peter Parker wrote:Well..

First to Zeph...I disagree my friend, because its obviously NOT a reflection of the market, and that's my point, thanks for helping

I said it was BECOMING, I didn't say it WAS. Obviously, we don't disagree, it's not a reflection of the market...and NEVER HAS BEEN....

BUT....to avoid becoming obsolete overstreet, Bobby's GOT to make changes so that the guide is still relatively relevant.

And he's doing that, stubborn as he is.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:56 pm

Peter Parker wrote: Yes, and anybody who even has the skill in grading to notice such a gem in their collection is going to grade it, immediately. I feel badly for all the folks out there who honestly believe you can find HG Golden/Silver...and in some cases Bronze age books raw anymore, it's really not that easy folks

Wrong. You're making the assumption that everyone thinks like you again, PP. There are, in fact, uber high grade books out there that are NOT slabbed, and there are even some which may NEVER be slabbed until the current owner parts with it/them (either through sale, or, more likely, death.)

You understand, of course, that it's a process. Not every single person who had a high grade Bronze or earlier book sent them in on Jan 1, 2000...and a lot STILL haven't.

I've got 9.6 Barry Smith Conans that I've bought over the last two years that *I* haven't sent in, because of time, inclination, etc.

The only thing it's REALLY safe to assume is that no one is foolish enough to SELL such a gem without having it graded....but, if they never sell, THEY know it's a 9.8 or some such...and they don't need to pay to have someone tell them what they already know.

ZephyrWasHOT!! · Post by **ZephyrWasHOT!!** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:57 pm

MagnusRF wrote: And back to the Harby #0, printing marks are allowed?!?!?!?!?!? So, as long as the printer screws up my copy, it's still NM? That's right up there with relaxed standards for Golden Age books. CGC is as inconsistent and subjective as any other grader, they just have a cooler storage bag!

'Printing marks' aren't 'screwed up by the printer'. They are printing FLAWS, and since they are not WEAR, they do not count against the GRADE (ie, printing creases.)

This has precedent in coins and cards.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:15 pm

Good Lord...will this never end

Must I qualify EVERYTHING I write with "logic"?

Do none of you understand WHAT i'm writing?????

HG books in private collections...DUH!!! This we all realize that fact, I own roughly 4,000 of them.

my POINT with these posts is not to question that NONE exist ANYWHERE (come on guys, ya gotta do better than this

)

The POINT all along..has been WHERE ARE THEY FOR SALE????

WHERE..AGAIN?

The book I was using as my example (Batman# 232 CGC 9.8) came from a one owner personal collection amassed over 40 years. However, he started SLABBING the books to sell them, so it DIDN'T EXIST RAW

I'll write it 1 more time..for the reading challenged

WHERE ARE THE 9.8 SILVERAGE BOOKS FOR SALE??? PLEASE ELUCIDATE ME!

Shakespeare · Post by **Shakespeare** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 pm

Methinks Peter doth protest too much.

1. These people aren't buried with their comics. They will (and do) come up for sale. At that time they may or may not be slabbed.
2. Some people won't slab on principle. They could slab their comics, get multiples of guide, but they won’t…because to them comics do not belong in slabs. If you can agree with me that there is one person in the world who sells high grade material without slabs, then your argument is broken.

If I’m ever in the market to buy an expensive high grade comic, no way am I going to buy it without inspecting it myself. CGC slabs prevent this.

(I like being in this position…having used CGC and yet arguing against it. I certainly don’t mind it when people pay 20 times going rate for one of my 9.8’s!)

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:45 pm

Peter Parker wrote:my POINT with these posts is not to question that NONE exist ANYWHERE

Even though that's exactly what you said?

Peter Parker wrote:How many RAW 9.8 Batman# 232 do you think EXIST..... Many of you take this crazy idea of "damn, why pay that for a slab, when you can find it raw for much less"

NO, YOU CANNOT...THEY DON'T EXIST! For those that are going to think "sure they do, the one you own was raw at one time"

I understand what you're saying just fine. What I still don't understand is the thinking that there are no raw Gold, Silver or Bronze Age 9.8's left in the world. They are NOT laying around in every comic shop, but with patience and tenacity, they can be found. Unless I'm the only one who missed it, there was no mass shipping of all the 9.8's in the universe to CGC back in 2000.

As far as where to find them? Try your local comic shops, go to conventions, or (Heaven forbid) look in the Overstreet Guide for some dealers. Not everyone is on board with the idea of slabbing every high grade copy that they find. To some dealers, it's not worth the hassle of packing, shipping, waiting, and finally getting the book back just to list, repack and reship. Others just enjoy handling the books, and assume their customers do too. Keep in mind, they are comic books and were meant to be read!

Sooner or later, these one owner collections and the like make it to the market. The owner (or their heirs) part with them eventually, and guess what? They are resold! In market updates, dealers are always bragging on their latest finds. Some send them to CGC, others don't want to put the time, effort, or investment into sending the entire collection and pick out some keys, selling the rest raw.

Shakes hits it on the head again....

I had never thought about buying a slabbed book, but you have a good point about not being able to inspect it in regards to its grade. I always want to inspect for content!

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:49 pm

Still not getting it...

WHERE ARE THE BOOKS FOR SALE????

Please, show me..a website, a seller on Ebay, a dealer...WHERE

9.8 Silver Age/ Gloden Age...even Bronze age...RAW NM/M copies....WHERE FOR GOD'S SAKE?

All ANY of you are doing is writing constant, redundant, retorts

to my SAME question..post after post

"people aren't buried with these books, they come up for sale"...really?...WHEN, WHERE, WHO,????? I will buy them ALL...every last copy!

Man, you CGC haters are a real pegorative bunch, i'm flummoxed by the lack of answers to my question...says much to me, like you all know not what you're writing about...at all

Schmakt · Post by **Schmakt** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:09 pm

Shakespeare wrote: 2. Some people won't slab on principle. They could slab their comics, get multiples of guide, but they won’t…because to them comics do not belong in slabs. If you can agree with me that there is one person in the world who sells high grade material without slabs, then your argument is broken.

I'm one of these people, I think... I really don't want my books slabbed. Of course, I don't plan to really sell them either... but, after I die, they'll be some HG SA raw books out there.

greg · Post by **greg** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:17 pm

If I may summarize...

High grade key issues which have been CGC slabbed are:
A) In private collections and not for sale at this time
or
B) In dealer or collector inventories and for sale at this time

High grade key issues which have not been CGC slabbed are:
A) In private collections and not for sale at this time
or
B) Rarely sold unslabbed when larger profits are possible using CGC

Rarely does not mean never... but it does mean rarely.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:43 pm

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh..

The saint of the website...ONCE again the voice of reason

Thank you G-man...but I was still waiting for definitive answers from the nay sayers

Shakespeare · Post by **Shakespeare** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:51 pm

In order for Peter's argument to work,

1) every GA/SA/BA 9.8 had to be a one-owner.
2) dealers have never received a GA/SA/BA 9.8 from a collection which they've bought.

Peter, that 9.8 had to come from somewhere. And if a dealer had it slabbed, then he had to get it from a collection. And that means that the collection was sold raw.

Peter, your argment has grand holes. There's no need for you to continue arguing, you've lost. Or, as I'm sure you're used to hearing, "I find in favor of the person not being represented by Peter Parker."

But just one more nail in the coffin...if you were going to buy a used $20,000 car, and you had it checked out by an expert and the expert said "I've never seen a car of this type in this good a condition"...would you pay $100,000 for it?

And I'm not a CGC hater. I've used them.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:21 pm

Dude,

what you just wrote makes ZERO sense. I'm also inclined to believe you have difficulty learning, beacuse you've STILL not comprehended my posts...AFTER 5 OF THEM!

I lost? (didn't know it was a lose or win discussion) but since you wish to take it there...

::Edit by Greg - name-calling not allowed ::
Re-read AGAIN, and while you're challenging your brain to do so, read Greg's post...
::Edit by Greg - name-calling not allowed ::

You continue to write things that have already been stated, or proven INACCURATE

::Edit by Greg - name-calling not allowed ::
It's amazing that you continue along this path when its obviously clear you're WRONG!!!

Again Genius...WHERE ARE THE BOOKS FOR SALE????? You fail to answer me 5 times already...
::Edit by Greg - additional comment unnecessary ::

P.S.

I already STATED my CGC Batman# 232 CAME FROM A PRIVATE, ONE OWNER COLLECTION...are you reading this...go back and read AGAIN before posting. I'll bet $100 you'll post the same illogical nonsense once more

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:28 pm

and BTW..you're car analogy is weak, however i'll educate you anyway.

The MARKET dictates price..understand that thick one?

If its a $20,000 car and an EXPERT claims they've NEVER SEEN ONE IN THAT CONDITION..does your growing mental capacity believe the car will sell for book value of $20,000? are you an idiot?

ever heard of rarity/demand????

NOW..we start to see why these CGC haters really don't know a thing about what they're writing about, you really don't.

It's a concept called..."fair market value"..which is determined by what another person will pay for it

Not a book, not your opinion, not you praying to God in your underroos....keep thinking you'll find NM+ to NM/M Silverage books out there dude

you'll be a old man before you amass anything close to a collection

he who hesitates...is lost!

MedicAR · Post by **MedicAR** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:41 pm

This will be my last post on this subject since some of us have degenerated to childish name calling and completely lost track of the subject......

Shakespeare wrote:if you were going to buy a used $20,000 car, and you had it checked out by an expert and the expert said "I've never seen a car of this type in this good a condition"...would you pay $100,000 for it?

Looks like the same logic as paying extra for a CGC book to me.....same book as before, you just had a third party tell you it's a really nice book.

Peter Parker wrote:
Again Genius...WHERE ARE THE BOOKS FOR SALE?????

Let's see....there was the Mile High ( or Edgar Church) Collection, Mile High II, The Cosmic Aeroplane Collection, The Larson Collection, and Tom Reilly Collection to name a few high grade finds, and these are just the really large ones. Many more are found all the time without nearly as mcuh hooplah. Ask the folks at Motor City Comics, Graham Crackers (who've been doing more CGC the last year or so) or Metropoolis Comics. Also, as I've stated more than once....try a convention.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:43 pm

WOW..people really are scaring me

RF...with all due respect my man...now you're quoting me collections dating back to 1977

WHAT?....ok, well thanks..you've just proven my point for me. Exactly, in almost 30 years..THIRTY YEARS you gave me 5 HG runs that DEALERS were privy to purchase (and Mile HIGH 2 is suspect IMO) :x

Good, its a start...now lets slow it down even more...for the masses that still can't grasp my posts...

W H E R E...A R E...T H E... HG BOOKS...F O R...S A L E...NOW!!!!

Metropolis? I live in NYC, I've contacted over 40 dealers here including Metro looking for ultra HG Silver Age..they have NONE

shocking...and when they do (rarely), they submit them for grading (geeze, this is getting tedious)

So, again..once more, forever?...let's make it easy, point me to the dealer/dealers

that are CURRENTLY selling HG Silvers on Ebay...PLEASE..and if you're dumb enough to believe what you see, then graded material really ISN'T for you

I make this offer again...find me ACTUAL NM+/NM/M Silver Age books, and i'll pay you a finders fee of 15% of my TOTAL costs after buying them all....and I will

Chuck · Post by **Chuck** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:17 pm

Folks chances are, like Pete said, if there is a high grade silver/golden age comic for sale. Let's say from 9.0 to 9.8 it will mostly likely be slabbed. A seller (who can grade) with a 9.8 golden age book (for sale) is a FOOL not to slab that comic.

I think people are forgetting how hard it is to find HIGH GRADE COMICS. If if I found, Amazing Spiderman 144 in RAW (9.6 - 9.8, white pages) I would pay any guide price because it still impossible to find that book (as it was 15 years ago, this book isn't even a real key issue, an a Modern comic at that).