Virgin Comics

[ManofTheAtom]

How about that quote from Layton in the Turok DVD where he says that Turok sold over one million copies?

It doesn't matter if retailers got stuck with them, the publisher still sold them.

you couldn't be more wrong with this statement. If we are talking one time sales, yes.

An ongoing monthly won't keep selling like thati f the retailers can't move the product.

you need to relearn your economics, son.

But I'm not talking about ongoing monthly sales. I'm talking about that one specific occasion.

That one single issue sold more than their overall output combined, right?

[Chiclo]

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

They don't have an audience. That is why they were cancelled, nobody was buying Valiant. It was outdated. Old school.

This is just keeping with the times, my good man.

Actually, they were canceled because Chiclo thought that if they were more like DC and Marvel (which are in fact outdated and old school) they would sell more.

He was wrong 12 years ago and he's wrong today.

Making VALIANT more like DC and Marvel has never succeeded, it's always ended in failure.

12 years ago I was a sophomore in high school.

I was wrong on a great many things but comic books were very much backburner (still bought maybe 5 or 6 a year), replaced with the old "gas and perfume" disease.

[ManofTheAtom]

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

They don't have an audience. That is why they were cancelled, nobody was buying Valiant. It was outdated. Old school.

This is just keeping with the times, my good man.

Actually, they were canceled because Chiclo thought that if they were more like DC and Marvel (which are in fact outdated and old school) they would sell more.

He was wrong 12 years ago and he's wrong today.

Making VALIANT more like DC and Marvel has never succeeded, it's always ended in failure.

12 years ago I was a sophomore in high school.

I was wrong on a great many things but comic books were very much backburner (still bought maybe 5 or 6 a year), replaced with the old "gas and perfume" disease.

So Acclaim hired a sophomore to edit their comics?

That explains VH 2 Faith and the goat, Fabian.

[Zaphod]

How about that quote from Layton in the Turok DVD where he says that Turok sold over one million copies?

It doesn't matter if retailers got stuck with them, the publisher still sold them.

you couldn't be more wrong with this statement. If we are talking one time sales, yes.

An ongoing monthly won't keep selling like thati f the retailers can't move the product.

you need to relearn your economics, son.

But I'm not talking about ongoing monthly sales. I'm talking about that one specific occasion.

That one single issue sold more than their overall output combined, right?

you truly don't see how retailers getting stuck with their thousands of copies of Turok that won't sell hurt Valiant in the long run?

Retailers got stuck with Valiant books they couldn't move and had to eat the cost and sell the books for pennies. So when it comes to the next month and they need to order new books, you figure they cut their orders of Turok for that next month?

you can slag DC and Marvel all you want. Marvel nearly went under as well, they didn't.

[ManofTheAtom]

you truly don't see how retailers getting stuck with their thousands of copies of Turok that won't sell hurt Valiant in the long run?

Yes I do. And that was Voyager's decision, which takes us back to the initial point...

VEI is NOT Voyager, so they won't make the same dumb *SQUEE* moves.

Retailers got stuck with Valiant books they couldn't move and had to eat the cost and sell the books for pennies. So when it comes to the next month and they need to order new books, you figure they cut their orders of Turok for that next month?

Of course.

you can slag DC and Marvel all you want. Marvel nearly went under as well, they didn't.

They didn't because Toy Biz (Avi Arad and that group) helped them.

As explained before, VEI is very much like Toy Biz, a new management group.

[Chiclo]

So Acclaim hired a sophomore to edit their comics?

That explains *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith and the goat, Fabian.

Don't blame me for the VHTWO Faith (did you use the censored VH2?). I wish I could take credit for the lighthearted brilliance of Vince the Goat, however.

[ManofTheAtom]

So Acclaim hired a sophomore to edit their comics?

That explains *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith and the goat, Fabian.

Don't blame me for the VHTWO Faith (did you use the censored VH2?). I wish I could take credit for the lighthearted brilliance of Vince the Goat, however.

You're Fabian Nicieza posting with Chiclo's name (that or Chiclo dislikes the VALIANT Universe as much as Nicieza did), and you're responsible for VH 2 Faith.

[Zaphod]

So Acclaim hired a sophomore to edit their comics?

That explains *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith and the goat, Fabian.

Don't blame me for the VHTWO Faith (did you use the censored VH2?). I wish I could take credit for the lighthearted brilliance of Vince the Goat, however.

at least she was hot.

Busieks Ninjak was teh bomb.

[ManofTheAtom]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came VH 2, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

[ManofTheAtom]

So Acclaim hired a sophomore to edit their comics?

That explains *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith and the goat, Fabian.

Don't blame me for the VHTWO Faith (did you use the censored VH2?). I wish I could take credit for the lighthearted brilliance of Vince the Goat, however.

at least she was hot.

Busieks Ninjak was teh bomb.

If you liked the rip off, you'll love the originals; Spider-Man and DC's Captain Marvel.

[Chiclo]

So Acclaim hired a sophomore to edit their comics?

That explains *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith and the goat, Fabian.

Don't blame me for the VHTWO Faith (did you use the censored VH2?). I wish I could take credit for the lighthearted brilliance of Vince the Goat, however.

You're Fabian Nicieza posting with Chiclo's name (that or Chiclo dislikes the VALIANT Universe as much as Nicieza did), and you're responsible for *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith.

Meh, VHTWO Faith was too much like any of the other girls in any of the other superhero comics.

VHONE Faith was kinda cute and was very different. Not to mention she had the fangirl thing going for her, talking about Klingons and Marvel and DC comics.

Maybe there should be a Harbinger/Klingon crossover.

[Zaphod]

So Acclaim hired a sophomore to edit their comics?

That explains *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith and the goat, Fabian.

Don't blame me for the VHTWO Faith (did you use the censored VH2?). I wish I could take credit for the lighthearted brilliance of Vince the Goat, however.

You're Fabian Nicieza posting with Chiclo's name (that or Chiclo dislikes the VALIANT Universe as much as Nicieza did), and you're responsible for *Acclaim (1997 series)* Faith.

Meh, VHTWO Faith was too much like any of the other girls in any of the other superhero comics.

VHONE Faith was kinda cute and was very different. Not to mention she had the fangirl thing going for her, talking about Klingons and Marvel and DC comics.

Maybe there should be a Harbinger/Klingon crossover.

I always wanted to see Klingons versus Spider Aliens. Like Predator vs. Aliens but better.

[Chiclo]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came *Acclaim (1997 series)*, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

And yet, DC and Marvel are still around and Valiant in all its forms failed.

Valiant is different and Valiant should remain different, but they should seek the fans of DC and Marvel, not shun them.

[ManofTheAtom]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came *Acclaim (1997 series)*, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

And yet, DC and Marvel are still around and Valiant in all its forms failed.

Valiant is different and Valiant should remain different, but they should seek the fans of DC and Marvel, not shun them.

Sure, but not by publishing DC and Marvel comics, which has been shown to be detrimental to their own characters.

[Chiclo]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came *Acclaim (1997 series)*, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

And yet, DC and Marvel are still around and Valiant in all its forms failed.

Valiant is different and Valiant should remain different, but they should seek the fans of DC and Marvel, not shun them.

Sure, but not by publishing DC and Marvel comics, which has been shown to be detrimental to their own characters.

Valiant published one Marvel comic (and Marvel published one Valiant comic). One. And earlier in this thread we were referring to it as the "Crisis".

[ManofTheAtom]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came *Acclaim (1997 series)*, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

And yet, DC and Marvel are still around and Valiant in all its forms failed.

Valiant is different and Valiant should remain different, but they should seek the fans of DC and Marvel, not shun them.

Sure, but not by publishing DC and Marvel comics, which has been shown to be detrimental to their own characters.

Valiant published one Marvel comic (and Marvel published one Valiant comic). One. And earlier in this thread we were referring to it as the "Crisis".

Which is an ignorant referrence since VALIANT never had anything called Crisis.

This is what I want you to understand that you refuse to see.

Just like the increased print run from Turok #1 had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, just like replacing the established writers with the Bquake crew had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, and just like the crossover with Iron Man had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, DOING IT AGAIN will ALSO have negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, so they should NOT do it.

The reason you suggest crossing over with DC and Marvel is to give VEI an increased notice so that DC and Marvel readers will look at them.

THIS WILL FAIL, just like the three previous times that VALIANT imitated DC and Marvel failed.

It may not fail when the project in question comes out, but it will in the long run.

People might read the crossover with DC or Marvel and see the kind of thing they're used to at with those two and then NOT like the VALIANT way of making comics and NOT buy the comics that don't crossover with DC and Marvel.

They might not like the real world aspct.

They might not like the strong science

They might not like the continuity

They might not like a myriad of things that make VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

[Zaphod]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came *Acclaim (1997 series)*, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

And yet, DC and Marvel are still around and Valiant in all its forms failed.

Valiant is different and Valiant should remain different, but they should seek the fans of DC and Marvel, not shun them.

Sure, but not by publishing DC and Marvel comics, which has been shown to be detrimental to their own characters.

Valiant published one Marvel comic (and Marvel published one Valiant comic). One. And earlier in this thread we were referring to it as the "Crisis".

I didn't. I said it was this:

[X-O HoboJoe]

"Virgin Comics"

Isn't that redundant?

[Zaphod]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came *Acclaim (1997 series)*, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

And yet, DC and Marvel are still around and Valiant in all its forms failed.

Valiant is different and Valiant should remain different, but they should seek the fans of DC and Marvel, not shun them.

Sure, but not by publishing DC and Marvel comics, which has been shown to be detrimental to their own characters.

Valiant published one Marvel comic (and Marvel published one Valiant comic). One. And earlier in this thread we were referring to it as the "Crisis".

Which is an ignorant referrence since VALIANT never had anything called Crisis.

This is what I want you to understand that you refuse to see.

Just like the increased print run from Turok #1 had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, just like replacing the established writers with the Bquake crew had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, and just like the crossover with Iron Man had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, DOING IT AGAIN will ALSO have negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, so they should NOT do it.

The reason you suggest crossing over with DC and Marvel is to give VEI an increased notice so that DC and Marvel readers will look at them.

THIS WILL FAIL, just like the three previous times that VALIANT imitated DC and Marvel failed.

It may not fail when the project in question comes out, but it will in the long run.

People might read the crossover with DC or Marvel and see the kind of thing they're used to at with those two and then NOT like the VALIANT way of making comics and NOT buy the comics that don't crossover with DC and Marvel.

They might not like the real world aspct.

They might not like the strong science

They might not like the continuity

They might not like a myriad of things that make VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

that is an awful lot of "mights" to use as your definitive proof that it would FAIL.


It might rain tomorrow. It might not. If it does, it doesn't mean I absolutely won't go outside.

[Zaphod]

"Virgin Comics"

Isn't that redundant?

BAAAAAAZING!!

[Chiclo]

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

You don't want to increase the exposure of these new comics?

[ManofTheAtom]

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

You don't want to increase the exposure of these new comics?

Not by crossing them over with DC and Marvel.

THREE TIMES now the people in charge of VALIANT have tried to be more like DC and Marvel and FAILED.

THREE TIMES.

There is NO need to make it a FOURTH.

FIND a different tactic, one that hasn't failed THREE TIMES,.

[ManofTheAtom]

So now we have three times that Voyager/Acclaim imitated DC and Marvel that ended badly.

First there was the increased print runs, which left retailers with product they couldn't move (though it bears to note that NO ONE forced them to buy it in the first place. They could have just let Voyager drown in their overprinted comics - death by paper cuts -).

Then came Birthquake, an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by putting the names of DC/Marvel creators in their credit box.

Lastly came *Acclaim (1997 series)*, which was an attempt to make the comics more attractive to DC/Marvel fans by making the characters more like the ones at DC and Marvel.

Those three ideas FAILED, and now you two want VEI to try again to be like DC and Marvel in the vain hope that the fourth time will work out.

And yet, DC and Marvel are still around and Valiant in all its forms failed.

Valiant is different and Valiant should remain different, but they should seek the fans of DC and Marvel, not shun them.

Sure, but not by publishing DC and Marvel comics, which has been shown to be detrimental to their own characters.

Valiant published one Marvel comic (and Marvel published one Valiant comic). One. And earlier in this thread we were referring to it as the "Crisis".

Which is an ignorant referrence since VALIANT never had anything called Crisis.

This is what I want you to understand that you refuse to see.

Just like the increased print run from Turok #1 had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, just like replacing the established writers with the Bquake crew had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, and just like the crossover with Iron Man had negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, DOING IT AGAIN will ALSO have negative repercussions for VALIANT in the long run, so they should NOT do it.

The reason you suggest crossing over with DC and Marvel is to give VEI an increased notice so that DC and Marvel readers will look at them.

THIS WILL FAIL, just like the three previous times that VALIANT imitated DC and Marvel failed.

It may not fail when the project in question comes out, but it will in the long run.

People might read the crossover with DC or Marvel and see the kind of thing they're used to at with those two and then NOT like the VALIANT way of making comics and NOT buy the comics that don't crossover with DC and Marvel.

They might not like the real world aspct.

They might not like the strong science

They might not like the continuity

They might not like a myriad of things that make VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

that is an awful lot of "mights" to use as your definitive proof that it would FAIL.


It might rain tomorrow. It might not. If it does, it doesn't mean I absolutely won't go outside.

At least I have an argument against it.

All you have is "it be cool if they crossovered".

[Chiclo]

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

You don't want to increase the exposure of these new comics?

Not by crossing them over with DC and Marvel.

THREE TIMES now the people in charge of VALIANT have tried to be more like DC and Marvel and FAILED.

THREE TIMES.

There is NO need to make it a FOURTH.

FIND a different tactic, one that hasn't failed THREE TIMES,.

Valiant only failed twice so I guess that doesn't qualify for what you are talking about until they fail one more time.

[ManofTheAtom]

Introducing them to the VALIANT Universe using the DC and Marvel characters is A MISTAKE, it be a tactic as equally desperate as increasing print runs, hiring DC and Marvel writers, and making DC/Marvel rip offs was.

You don't want to increase the exposure of these new comics?

Not by crossing them over with DC and Marvel.

THREE TIMES now the people in charge of VALIANT have tried to be more like DC and Marvel and FAILED.

THREE TIMES.

There is NO need to make it a FOURTH.

FIND a different tactic, one that hasn't failed THREE TIMES,.

Valiant only failed twice so I guess that doesn't qualify for what you are talking about until they fail one more time.

They failed with the increased print runs, which made retailers not like them, and they failed with BQuake and with VH 2.