This Board and Alien Books

[ManofTheAtom]

... Also speculating here, but they were so good at marketing that I think at times that can come off as over-marketing and that can burn people out. As well as the 'whales' who have to collect everything can get burned out by the volume of variants and whatnot, and they just end up quitting altogether.

Exactly this.

A collector of pre-Unity Valiant anytime between 1992 and 2011 would have meant building a collection of 60 books over 20 years.
Throw in the Valiant variants, gold issues, and key first appearances and you'd still be under 100 books for a "very nice" old school Valiant collection.

VEI put out 100 different books (including variants) in about 8 months. By the second anniversary (May 2014), there were over 500 books.

Old school Valiant 100 "classics" in 20 years vs. New Valiant 500 "everything" in 2 years.

I never got into buying variants, just the comics to read the stories.

But this all takes us back to the discussion of people seeing (valuing) VALIANT solely as an investment rather than for the stories.

[aj583]

It’s tricky. I think you need to attract all kinds of collectors AND at the same time not alienate anyone. I think Dinesh is a collector that lived for the chase and hunt. Along with the potential for buzz, maybe that’s the reason for the ratio approach. I do think it turned a lot of V1 collectors off as it was impossible to collect everything like the old days. I wonder if VEI could do it again, if they’d change their approach to ratio books. Scarcity is still a big driver with bad idea, and if you look at the overall industry with retailer books, plays a big part in keeping the industry propped up.


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[ManofTheAtom]

It’s tricky. I think you need to attract all kinds of collectors AND at the same time not alienate anyone. I think Dinesh is a collector that lived for the chase and hunt. Along with the potential for buzz, maybe that’s the reason for the ratio approach. I do think it turned a lot of V1 collectors off as it was impossible to collect everything like the old days. I wonder if VEI could do it again, if they’d change their approach to ratio books. Scarcity is still a big driver with bad idea, and if you look at the overall industry with retailer books, plays a big part in keeping the industry propped up.


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No doubt.

[Ryan]

... Also speculating here, but they were so good at marketing that I think at times that can come off as over-marketing and that can burn people out. As well as the 'whales' who have to collect everything can get burned out by the volume of variants and whatnot, and they just end up quitting altogether.

Exactly this.

A collector of pre-Unity Valiant anytime between 1992 and 2011 would have meant building a collection of 60 books over 20 years.
Throw in the Valiant variants, gold issues, and key first appearances and you'd still be under 100 books for a "very nice" old school Valiant collection.

VEI put out 100 different books (including variants) in about 8 months. By the second anniversary (May 2014), there were over 500 books.

Old school Valiant 100 "classics" in 20 years vs. New Valiant 500 "everything" in 2 years.

It is tricky, I can see both sides. A young company needs any advantage it can use to gain enough revenue to keep it afloat. But I think it preys on the people who can't control their collecting impulses and turns off the average reader/collector.

I'd much rather things were done more in the spirit of 1991-93 VALIANT, where any promotional 'gimmicks' added value to the story and collectability was natural not manufactured.

[syzhang28]

... Also speculating here, but they were so good at marketing that I think at times that can come off as over-marketing and that can burn people out. As well as the 'whales' who have to collect everything can get burned out by the volume of variants and whatnot, and they just end up quitting altogether.

Exactly this.

A collector of pre-Unity Valiant anytime between 1992 and 2011 would have meant building a collection of 60 books over 20 years.
Throw in the Valiant variants, gold issues, and key first appearances and you'd still be under 100 books for a "very nice" old school Valiant collection.

VEI put out 100 different books (including variants) in about 8 months. By the second anniversary (May 2014), there were over 500 books.

Old school Valiant 100 "classics" in 20 years vs. New Valiant 500 "everything" in 2 years.

It is tricky, I can see both sides. A young company needs any advantage it can use to gain enough revenue to keep it afloat. But I think it preys on the people who can't control their collecting impulses and turns off the average reader/collector.

I'd much rather things were done more in the spirit of 1991-93 VALIANT, where any promotional 'gimmicks' added value to the story and collectability was natural not manufactured.

A world that will never return (despite how much Bad Idea tries imo). In that same 2 years, every other publisher produced far more than 500. I'm not just talking Marvel and DC. But even publishers that were producing the same number of stories a month like Dynamite, Avatar, IDW etc

[Ryan]

... Also speculating here, but they were so good at marketing that I think at times that can come off as over-marketing and that can burn people out. As well as the 'whales' who have to collect everything can get burned out by the volume of variants and whatnot, and they just end up quitting altogether.

Exactly this.

A collector of pre-Unity Valiant anytime between 1992 and 2011 would have meant building a collection of 60 books over 20 years.
Throw in the Valiant variants, gold issues, and key first appearances and you'd still be under 100 books for a "very nice" old school Valiant collection.

VEI put out 100 different books (including variants) in about 8 months. By the second anniversary (May 2014), there were over 500 books.

Old school Valiant 100 "classics" in 20 years vs. New Valiant 500 "everything" in 2 years.

It is tricky, I can see both sides. A young company needs any advantage it can use to gain enough revenue to keep it afloat. But I think it preys on the people who can't control their collecting impulses and turns off the average reader/collector.

I'd much rather things were done more in the spirit of 1991-93 VALIANT, where any promotional 'gimmicks' added value to the story and collectability was natural not manufactured.

A world that will never return (despite how much Bad Idea tries imo). In that same 2 years, every other publisher produced far more than 500. I'm not just talking Marvel and DC. But even publishers that were producing the same number of stories a month like Dynamite, Avatar, IDW etc

All the more reason to go against the grain and stand out from everyone. Despite the no variants policy, I don't think Bad Idea is the same approach as VH1 in regards to natural vs. manufactured collectability.

[TheFerg714]

I do think it turned a lot of V1 collectors off as it was impossible to collect everything like the old days.

I'm sorry but I just think this is nonsense. No one has to collect every single variant cover. If someone feels that they absolutely have to, and if it's not possible then they lose interest, that's honestly a 'them' problem. I genuinely don't get how anyone could care that VEI made "too many" variants.

[ManofTheAtom]

I do think it turned a lot of V1 collectors off as it was impossible to collect everything like the old days.

I'm sorry but I just think this is nonsense. No one has to collect every single variant cover. If someone feels that they absolutely have to, and if it's not possible then they lose interest, that's honestly a 'them' problem. I genuinely don't get how anyone could care that VEI made "too many" variants.

Absolutely. If they were into it for the collectibles and not the stories, they weren't even actual fans. They were speculators.

[syzhang28]

Gotta agree with the last two comments.

Also, VH1 had lots of manufactured collectibility. I would say, the most ever in history actually. Sendaway issues from trading cards, pink mail away issues, gold issues, red limited edition issues, zero issues and on and on.

[Ryan]

Gotta agree with the last two comments.

Also, VH1 had lots of manufactured collectibility. I would say, the most ever in history actually. Sendaway issues from trading cards, pink mail away issues, gold issues, red limited edition issues, zero issues and on and on.

You have a point there, I was thinking more of Pre-Unity but the sendaway coupons and 0 issues could be seen as a marketing gimmick. Post-Unity started doing the limited variants like gold issues and that's when VH1 got the reputation for being gimmicky. I guess I was referring to the overall collectability of Pre Unity VH1 coming from a real organic interest in people wanting to read the books instead of a bunch of manufactured limited edition variants.

I didn't know people actually liked variant covers other than the publishers who get to make more money by selling the same issue multiple times. I don't like to fill my comic boxes with multiples of the same issue and I think it takes away from the 'iconic-ness' of covers. When I think of X-O 5 (VH1) I can instantly recall the image of the suit wrapping around Aric with the red background. When every comic has a bunch of variants that feeling of the iconic comic cover gets watered down IMO.

[syzhang28]

Gotta agree with the last two comments.

Also, VH1 had lots of manufactured collectibility. I would say, the most ever in history actually. Sendaway issues from trading cards, pink mail away issues, gold issues, red limited edition issues, zero issues and on and on.

You have a point there, I was thinking more of Pre-Unity but the sendaway coupons and 0 issues could be seen as a marketing gimmick. Post-Unity started doing the limited variants like gold issues and that's when VH1 got the reputation for being gimmicky. I guess I was referring to the overall collectability of Pre Unity VH1 coming from a real organic interest in people wanting to read the books instead of a bunch of manufactured limited edition variants.

I didn't know people actually liked variant covers other than the publishers who get to make more money by selling the same issue multiple times. I don't like to fill my comic boxes with multiples of the same issue and I think it takes away from the 'iconic-ness' of covers. When I think of X-O 5 (VH1) I can instantly recall the image of the suit wrapping around Aric with the red background. When every comic has a bunch of variants that feeling of the iconic comic cover gets watered down IMO.

I know lots of collectors that like variants but mostly I think its stores that like them. They used them to reduce risk. I hear lots of publishers complain about them at panels. I don't think publishers like them and I don't blame them. Seems like a lot of work for nothing concrete.

[Ryan]

Gotta agree with the last two comments.

Also, VH1 had lots of manufactured collectibility. I would say, the most ever in history actually. Sendaway issues from trading cards, pink mail away issues, gold issues, red limited edition issues, zero issues and on and on.

You have a point there, I was thinking more of Pre-Unity but the sendaway coupons and 0 issues could be seen as a marketing gimmick. Post-Unity started doing the limited variants like gold issues and that's when VH1 got the reputation for being gimmicky. I guess I was referring to the overall collectability of Pre Unity VH1 coming from a real organic interest in people wanting to read the books instead of a bunch of manufactured limited edition variants.

I didn't know people actually liked variant covers other than the publishers who get to make more money by selling the same issue multiple times. I don't like to fill my comic boxes with multiples of the same issue and I think it takes away from the 'iconic-ness' of covers. When I think of X-O 5 (VH1) I can instantly recall the image of the suit wrapping around Aric with the red background. When every comic has a bunch of variants that feeling of the iconic comic cover gets watered down IMO.

I know lots of collectors that like variants but mostly I think its stores that like them. They used them to reduce risk. I hear lots of publishers complain about them at panels. I don't think publishers like them and I don't blame them. Seems like a lot of work for nothing concrete.

That makes sense.

[lorddunlow]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

[ManofTheAtom]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

Someday I'll read what I've missed from VEI and talk about it.

[syzhang28]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

Someday I'll read what I've missed from VEI and talk about it.

This explains it imo. VEI was bascially perfect. Almost very note hit exactly right from 2012-2017. They did it and it didn't leave much to talk about. There's plenty to talk about when you want to complain or say "what if they did this cool thing". Not a lot to talk about when its all going well. I suppose DMG also showed us that there's not a lot to talk about when you *SQUEE* the bed so bad you make people forget why they like the characters too

[Ryan]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

Someday I'll read what I've missed from VEI and talk about it.

This explains it imo. VEI was bascially perfect. Almost very note hit exactly right from 2012-2017. They did it and it didn't leave much to talk about. There's plenty to talk about when you want to complain or say "what if they did this cool thing". Not a lot to talk about when its all going well. I suppose DMG also showed us that there's not a lot to talk about when you *SQUEE* the bed so bad you make people forget why they like the characters too

That's one opinion. I think if that were objectively true there would be more evidence to support it. I don't think a "perfect" 5 year run of comics leaves hardly anybody talking about it or re-reading it. It does partially explain some of the hostility on here to old school fans though. I think VEI definitely produced quality comics that hit more with some people than others. Same can be said about VH1, but there's more evidence that it left a lasting impact on the fans and culture.

[syzhang28]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

Someday I'll read what I've missed from VEI and talk about it.

This explains it imo. VEI was bascially perfect. Almost very note hit exactly right from 2012-2017. They did it and it didn't leave much to talk about. There's plenty to talk about when you want to complain or say "what if they did this cool thing". Not a lot to talk about when its all going well. I suppose DMG also showed us that there's not a lot to talk about when you *SQUEE* the bed so bad you make people forget why they like the characters too

That's one opinion. I think if that were objectively true there would be more evidence to support it. I don't think a "perfect" 5 year run of comics leaves hardly anybody talking about it or re-reading it. It does partially explain some of the hostility on here to old school fans though. I think VEI definitely produced quality comics that hit more with some people than others. Same can be said about VH1, but there's more evidence that it left a lasting impact on the fans and culture.

Both VH1 and VEI are great. Too great to spark discussion.

Evidence: Neither is really being talked about.

Alternate theory: both deserve lots of chatter but DMG did such a bad job, no one really cares right now

[Ryan]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

Someday I'll read what I've missed from VEI and talk about it.

This explains it imo. VEI was bascially perfect. Almost very note hit exactly right from 2012-2017. They did it and it didn't leave much to talk about. There's plenty to talk about when you want to complain or say "what if they did this cool thing". Not a lot to talk about when its all going well. I suppose DMG also showed us that there's not a lot to talk about when you *SQUEE* the bed so bad you make people forget why they like the characters too

That's one opinion. I think if that were objectively true there would be more evidence to support it. I don't think a "perfect" 5 year run of comics leaves hardly anybody talking about it or re-reading it. It does partially explain some of the hostility on here to old school fans though. I think VEI definitely produced quality comics that hit more with some people than others. Same can be said about VH1, but there's more evidence that it left a lasting impact on the fans and culture.

Both VH1 and VEI are great. Too great to spark discussion.

Evidence: Neither is really being talked about.

Alternate theory: both deserve lots of chatter but DMG did such a bad job, no one really cares right now

I think you nailed it on the head. The question then is why did DMG do such a bad job, and are they people who made those decisions still making the decisions? It can't be that hard to run a little comic book company.

I mean damn all they have to do is come on here and they can get pages and pages of free advice

[ManofTheAtom]

Just look at how much activity has occurred just best an old member returned and began a posting spree.

I wasn't on here until 2010 and mostly lurked until the VEI relaunch. Definitely I came because of a love for Valiant, but I stayed and was very active because of the community, but it's that awkward silence kindз. Life gets in the way, but when you post something and no one comments, it puts you back into lurker mode. We need more post bombers (I used to be one - I started the "Board Dead Time" thread just for my bored ramblings. Conversation needs points to debate and MOTA is providing.

Just look at how much grendeljd posted in the past few days. Many of us are still here in that awkward silence kind of "here".

Someday I'll read what I've missed from VEI and talk about it.

This explains it imo. VEI was bascially perfect. Almost very note hit exactly right from 2012-2017. They did it and it didn't leave much to talk about. There's plenty to talk about when you want to complain or say "what if they did this cool thing". Not a lot to talk about when its all going well. I suppose DMG also showed us that there's not a lot to talk about when you *SQUEE* the bed so bad you make people forget why they like the characters too

That's one opinion. I think if that were objectively true there would be more evidence to support it. I don't think a "perfect" 5 year run of comics leaves hardly anybody talking about it or re-reading it. It does partially explain some of the hostility on here to old school fans though. I think VEI definitely produced quality comics that hit more with some people than others. Same can be said about VH1, but there's more evidence that it left a lasting impact on the fans and culture.

Both VH1 and VEI are great. Too great to spark discussion.

Evidence: Neither is really being talked about.

Alternate theory: both deserve lots of chatter but DMG did such a bad job, no one really cares right now

I wasn't here. Had I been, the discussion would have never stopped.

[syzhang28]

You were banned back then right?

[ManofTheAtom]

You were banned back then right?

For a while, yeah.

[TheFerg714]

I've thought about this a lot before. VEI was genuinely the best superhero shared universe of them all, at least in my opinion, but why doesn't it ever get talked about? Why is the fanbase such a tiny speck in the grand scheme of comic book fanbases?

People say they're tired of the same old *SQUEE* from the Big 2, but then don't give Valiant a chance. People say they want a more cohesive shared universe, but no one thinks to try Valiant. People say they want less, and more impactful events, and there's Valiant just waiting to be read, but no one seems to give a *SQUEE*.

It's kind of a mystery to me. What will it take to get Valiant to the "next level"? One would hope that high quality books would do it, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Valiant just isn't nearly as good as we think it is?

[syzhang28]

I've thought about this a lot before. VEI was genuinely the best superhero shared universe of them all, at least in my opinion, but why doesn't it ever get talked about? Why is the fanbase such a tiny speck in the grand scheme of comic book fanbases?

People say they're tired of the same old *SQUEE* from the Big 2, but then don't give Valiant a chance. People say they want a more cohesive shared universe, but no one thinks to try Valiant. People say they want less, and more impactful events, and there's Valiant just waiting to be read, but no one seems to give a *SQUEE*.

It's kind of a mystery to me. What will it take to get Valiant to the "next level"? One would hope that high quality books would do it, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Valiant just isn't nearly as good as we think it is?

I have so many friends that read Marvel and DC and say all those things and I can't get them to read Valiant. It's for the same, one reason. They feel like they missed out already. They don't want to jump into something that has been around and they feel like they are on the outside of. Also the stigma of the 90s that Valiant gets blamed for doesn't help. I had one friend who I was telling about Divinity. And he was so super excited to read it. He even bought the trade but then he didn't read it when he said the Valiant logo. Nothing I could say about how you don't need to know anything about Valiant would change his mind. I don't really blame him, I'm the same way with some things like Doctor Who. I just feel like I missed it and its too much work to learn it all. No matter how many people say, "just start here you don't need to know anything"

[Ryan]

I've thought about this a lot before. VEI was genuinely the best superhero shared universe of them all, at least in my opinion, but why doesn't it ever get talked about? Why is the fanbase such a tiny speck in the grand scheme of comic book fanbases?

People say they're tired of the same old *SQUEE* from the Big 2, but then don't give Valiant a chance. People say they want a more cohesive shared universe, but no one thinks to try Valiant. People say they want less, and more impactful events, and there's Valiant just waiting to be read, but no one seems to give a *SQUEE*.

It's kind of a mystery to me. What will it take to get Valiant to the "next level"? One would hope that high quality books would do it, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Valiant just isn't nearly as good as we think it is?

I think there's a difference between something being good or high quality and something that breaks through to a wider popularity. There's a ton of things, whether comics or other media, that are super high quality and might connect with a lot of people but not enough to break through. We've all had shows or movies like that, comics history is littered with them as well.

I was just looking at some Crossgen comics recently, and it remined me a bit of VEI. Super gorgeous art, popular writers, some titles that even caught on for a bit, but then boom it's over and no one hardly remembers or talks about them. There's a lot of differences as well, but some things similar.

I have so many friends that read Marvel and DC and say all those things and I can't get them to read Valiant. It's for the same, one reason. They feel like they missed out already. They don't want to jump into something that has been around and they feel like they are on the outside of. Also the stigma of the 90s that Valiant gets blamed for doesn't help. I had one friend who I was telling about Divinity. And he was so super excited to read it. He even bought the trade but then he didn't read it when he said the Valiant logo. Nothing I could say about how you don't need to know anything about Valiant would change his mind. I don't really blame him, I'm the same way with some things like Doctor Who. I just feel like I missed it and its too much work to learn it all. No matter how many people say, "just start here you don't need to know anything"

This is a big one for VALIANT that all the various DMG re-launches only make it harder to overcome. There's a baked-in impression that a lot of comics readers have about Valiant comics and it would take a lot to get over that at this point.

[ManofTheAtom]

I've thought about this a lot before. VEI was genuinely the best superhero shared universe of them all, at least in my opinion, but why doesn't it ever get talked about? Why is the fanbase such a tiny speck in the grand scheme of comic book fanbases?

People say they're tired of the same old *SQUEE* from the Big 2, but then don't give Valiant a chance. People say they want a more cohesive shared universe, but no one thinks to try Valiant. People say they want less, and more impactful events, and there's Valiant just waiting to be read, but no one seems to give a *SQUEE*.

It's kind of a mystery to me. What will it take to get Valiant to the "next level"? One would hope that high quality books would do it, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Valiant just isn't nearly as good as we think it is?

DC and Marvel have always had a leg up on VALIANT; adaptations in other media.

They're not the big two because of what they do in comics, it's because of how they've been adapted in other media.

Bloodshot could have been that for VALIANT (it's actually not a bad movie, or a bad adaptation), but for multiple reasons (some that didn't even have anything to do with the comic book or the quality of the movie -- i.e. people's unexplained disdain for Diesel), the movie didn't perform as well as it could have. Of course, the COVID pandemic did not help. Sans that, it COULD have been a success.