Divinity #1 Discussion

[leonmallett]

I do not buy Kindt's explanation for a black Russian cosmonaut though. As Kindt has made that both a plot and character point, it does bear comment. I said elsewhere it felt contrived, and just does not really seem to stack up to me.

Just curious about this comment. What aren't you buying?

That my suspension of disbelief that the culture of the time in that country would have gone such a route. Superhero comics are about the fantastical, about suspension of disbelief. But in making a story point about Abrams ethnic origins, which is more the issue of the more recognisable world around us, Kindt fails to sell the plausibility of it to me as a reader.

[SJS4]

Communist USSR actively recruited talented black Americans. When i read the story, it immediately made me think of Paul Robeson (didn't move to Russia, but advocated for their policies).

[leonmallett]

Communist USSR actively recruited talented black Americans. When i read the story, it immediately made me think of Paul Robeson (didn't move to Russia, but advocated for their policies).

There is a difference between having been a communist in say the USA, and the pretext Kindt presents. It may work for you, which is fine, I just don't buy it. We can agree to differ.

[greg]

Copied from the 18th century Abram topic:

Knowing the history of the African races in "civilized" countries of the 20th century, it does not surprise me at all that Russia would be worried about losing their "best and brightest" to a space program that might fail, unless he was an "outsider" that didn't belong in Russia from the beginning.

[leonmallett]

Copied from the 18th century Abram topic:

Knowing the history of the African races in "civilized" countries of the 20th century, it does not surprise me at all that Russia would be worried about losing their "best and brightest" to a space program that might fail, unless he was an "outsider" that didn't belong in Russia from the beginning.

So we have a story point predicated on his ethnicity, making him best, brightest and an outsider - what about the other two crew? What is their context?

It is only one quibble for me. Ultimately it won't ruin the story, it is just one I don't buy into, and despite the likely origin of the choice, I don't buy the 18th century parallel as a supporting argument. Honestly, I think Kindt and company may have thought it as something interesting, cool, and novel - or maybe I am completely wrong. For this reader making a point of it kind of missed the mark, and nothing so far convinces me otherwise.

It is an interesting choice, and I applaud VEI broadening the diversity of their IP stable, both with a new character, and a non-white male, but the choice just doesn't 'fit' for this reader in this specific instance.

[greg]

Copied from the 18th century Abram topic:

Knowing the history of the African races in "civilized" countries of the 20th century, it does not surprise me at all that Russia would be worried about losing their "best and brightest" to a space program that might fail, unless he was an "outsider" that didn't belong in Russia from the beginning.

So we have a story point predicated on his ethnicity, making him best, brightest and an outsider - what about the other two crew? What is their context?

It wasn't the Tuskegee Airmen. There was only one Abram. The other crew were the Russian best and brightest who volunteered. We don't yet know their story.

[leonmallett]

Copied from the 18th century Abram topic:

Knowing the history of the African races in "civilized" countries of the 20th century, it does not surprise me at all that Russia would be worried about losing their "best and brightest" to a space program that might fail, unless he was an "outsider" that didn't belong in Russia from the beginning.

So we have a story point predicated on his ethnicity, making him best, brightest and an outsider - what about the other two crew? What is their context?

It wasn't the Tuskegee Airmen. There was only one Abram. The other crew were the Russian best and brightest who volunteered. We don't yet know their story.

No we don't know their story, as they seemed dropped in quite late into the story, and not for the first time by Kindt, but that is another debate.

What it would take for me to buy into the scenario of Abram as presented is this: a citing of a strong example of a black Russian rising to prominence in 1960's Russia. Not 18th century imperial Russia. Not 1930's Great Depression era Russia, but in 1960's Russia, when the Great Purge is a generation gone, the Cold War is under-way, and the promise of the 1930's quite changed.

[greg]

Copied from the 18th century Abram topic:

Knowing the history of the African races in "civilized" countries of the 20th century, it does not surprise me at all that Russia would be worried about losing their "best and brightest" to a space program that might fail, unless he was an "outsider" that didn't belong in Russia from the beginning.

So we have a story point predicated on his ethnicity, making him best, brightest and an outsider - what about the other two crew? What is their context?

It wasn't the Tuskegee Airmen. There was only one Abram. The other crew were the Russian best and brightest who volunteered. We don't yet know their story.

No we don't know their story, as they seemed dropped in quite late into the story, and not for the first time by Kindt, but that is another debate.

What it would take for me to buy into the scenario of Abram as presented is this: a citing of a strong example of a black Russian rising to prominence in 1960's Russia. Not 18th century imperial Russia. Not 1930's Great Depression era Russia, but in 1960's Russia, when the Great Purge is a generation gone, the Cold War is under-way, and the promise of the 1930's quite changed.

That defeats the purpose. It's because Abram was one-of-a-kind and part of a completely secret mission that we don't have any historical public examples.

His upbringing in Russia at that time period predates the World Festival of Youth and Students, so he would have been unique in his circumstances.

[leonmallett]

Copied from the 18th century Abram topic:

Knowing the history of the African races in "civilized" countries of the 20th century, it does not surprise me at all that Russia would be worried about losing their "best and brightest" to a space program that might fail, unless he was an "outsider" that didn't belong in Russia from the beginning.

So we have a story point predicated on his ethnicity, making him best, brightest and an outsider - what about the other two crew? What is their context?

It wasn't the Tuskegee Airmen. There was only one Abram. The other crew were the Russian best and brightest who volunteered. We don't yet know their story.

No we don't know their story, as they seemed dropped in quite late into the story, and not for the first time by Kindt, but that is another debate.

What it would take for me to buy into the scenario of Abram as presented is this: a citing of a strong example of a black Russian rising to prominence in 1960's Russia. Not 18th century imperial Russia. Not 1930's Great Depression era Russia, but in 1960's Russia, when the Great Purge is a generation gone, the Cold War is under-way, and the promise of the 1930's quite changed.

That defeats the purpose. It's because Abram was one-of-a-kind and part of a completely secret mission that we don't have any historical public examples.

His upbringing in Russia at that time period predates the World Festival of Youth and Students, so he would have been unique in his circumstances.

That underscores why it works for you, yet at the same time underscores why it doesn't work for me.

[greg]

Copied from the 18th century Abram topic:

Knowing the history of the African races in "civilized" countries of the 20th century, it does not surprise me at all that Russia would be worried about losing their "best and brightest" to a space program that might fail, unless he was an "outsider" that didn't belong in Russia from the beginning.

So we have a story point predicated on his ethnicity, making him best, brightest and an outsider - what about the other two crew? What is their context?

It wasn't the Tuskegee Airmen. There was only one Abram. The other crew were the Russian best and brightest who volunteered. We don't yet know their story.

No we don't know their story, as they seemed dropped in quite late into the story, and not for the first time by Kindt, but that is another debate.

What it would take for me to buy into the scenario of Abram as presented is this: a citing of a strong example of a black Russian rising to prominence in 1960's Russia. Not 18th century imperial Russia. Not 1930's Great Depression era Russia, but in 1960's Russia, when the Great Purge is a generation gone, the Cold War is under-way, and the promise of the 1930's quite changed.

That defeats the purpose. It's because Abram was one-of-a-kind and part of a completely secret mission that we don't have any historical public examples.

His upbringing in Russia at that time period predates the World Festival of Youth and Students, so he would have been unique in his circumstances.

That underscores why it works for you, yet at the same time underscores why it doesn't work for me.

It seems you're asking why there aren't more examples like the ones that are unique.
Makes me think it's actually the dictionary that doesn't work for you.

[SJS4]

I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.

Do you think there were no black people in Russia during the mid 1900's? Or are you saying you realize they were there, but you don't believe Communist Russia/USSR would allow a black person to be a cosmonaut?

[leonmallett]

I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.

Do you think there were no black people in Russia during the mid 1900's? Or are you saying you realize they were there, but you don't believe Communist Russia/USSR would allow a black person to be a cosmonaut?

The cosmonaut angle. A cursory examination shows the influx of people of many ethnicities and nationalities in the 1930's, but this book is not set then, it is set after two major periods of upheaval: The Great purge and World War II, and the story starts out amid a third period of upheaval - the Cold War.

Oddly, I would have totally accepted the character premise in a 1930's set book (dismissing the space flight issue as a fantastical element per my point about differing tolerances for different facets of suspension of disbelief).

[QUARTZ]

I can buy them using a black man for an experimental space program in Russia. I mean just look at the Tuskegee experiments. They probably were not expecting him to survive and it also kind of explains how it got moth balled and nobody seemed to care. They all thought it was another failure; another "dead dog" in space.

[400yrs]

I just read this. No clue about the last few pages. Confused. But I guess this dude is the new Solar.

[NinJZA]

I can't unsee or unhear Lance Reddick and Anna Torv as Abram and Eva. Reddick's gravelly voice would be great for a Divinity voiceover.