The Beginning of the End?

[VEI Reborn]

I think the constant variants also takes away from the importance of an individual issue and causes confusing for new buyers.

Yes, its time the variants stopped. It apparently helps their bottom line up front but it CERTAINLY hurts them on the back end.

An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants. There is no demand for back issue collecting and speculating. Too much speculating is a bad thing but there needs to be at the very least ...some. Once this demand is there, it will certainly bring new readers in and once they realize how good the books really are, many will be hooked. I bet they could increase their sales 10% with a quickness just by publically announcing no more variants except on special occasions.

Why do some Image books sell 40k copies and the books are no where near as good as a Valiant book [enter a title here]. Speculation. Why do these same books drop to 20k copies after the first few issues? Lack of merit. Get speculation into the mix and sales will increase and with the quality content they are putting out...you wont see a huge drop off. Speculation is good if the content can match or exceed it and Valiant certainly can.


Just my opinion guys, Im sure not everyone will agree. This is coming from someone that heavily collects all that is Valiant.

[comicsyte95]

QFT

[paradise]

Yes, its time the variants stopped. It apparently helps their bottom line up front but it CERTAINLY hurts them on the back end.
An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants. There is no demand for back issue collecting and speculating. Too much speculating is a bad thing but there needs to be at the very least ...some. Once this demand is there, it will certainly bring new readers in and once they realize how good the books really are, many will be hooked. I bet they could increase their sales 10% with a quickness just by publically announcing no more variants except on special occasions.
Why do some Image books sell 40k copies and the books are no where near as good as a Valiant book [enter a title here]. Speculation. Why do these same books drop to 20k copies after the first few issues? Lack of merit. Get speculation into the mix and sales will increase and with the quality content they are putting out...you wont see a huge drop off. Speculation is good if the content can match or exceed it and Valiant certainly can.
Just my opinion guys, Im sure not everyone will agree. This is coming from someone that heavily collects all that is Valiant.

Aaron, the thing is for every one of you who says, "No more Variants" there are dozens who email me on daily basis looking for Variants. There is a REAL demand for these books. And I know I order a lot more books because of the variants, to fill those demands, which gives numbers to VEI. Every store that would have ordered 15 copies, that now orders 20 to get a variant, is increasing their exposure, and valiant's numbers at that store by 25%. You can't possibly say that's a bad idea. And if those sell OK, and on the big issue he steps up to the 1:50, that's doubling his numbers and exposing more people who would never see the book had he sold out of his 20 copies. That's the real purpose of variants, and the reason they are a necessary "evil".

You bring up Image Comics, but that's a TOTALLY different bird. It's creator-owned books being put out BY THE CREATOR. Nobody else is involved financially in that deal. Image charges creator a "fee" to put it out, but they have to pay for everything else and hope to make money. If they do well, they get 100% of everything, but if they lose money (and most do lose) Image does not care. That's not the same model as Valiant, who has shareholders and tons of fans, and lots of editorial mandates to keep the universe together. It's two completely different ways to do comics.

Here is the kicker. Most Valiant titles are selling more copies than mid-to-low tier Image titles. No, not Brian K. Vaughn and Ed Brubaker books, but many others. I know this because some of these creators are friends and they wish they had these numbers.

[paradise]

I am not worried unless ALL the titles were to start dropping below 6000 per month.

I know several creators who put out books through one of the big 4 who'd be HAPPY with 6k per month. That is an amazing number for almost any Indy book that is published these days except for the "BIG" Image books.

Specially when you get into economy of scale by publishing 8,10,12 books and are getting much better printing rates, the numbers you need to keep up are significantly lower.

[paradise]

I think your point about damages is well made. I stopped buying VEIs for my eBay store early on because of this problem.

I will make a statement that won't be very popular. I think the printing quality is on the level with most other similar size publishers (you guys know most of them use the same printers RIGHT?)

I think the perceived level of damages has to do with the fact that a typical Valiant collector is a LOT more picky about the condition of their books. I have been in retail for 20 years now and I have not met a more condition-obsessed collector group. Just look at the CGC runs on this site.

btw, I hope nobody takes what I say in a negative way, 'cause I definitely don't mean it that way. To each their own, I don't judge anyone on what they do, I could not be in this business for 20 years if I did. I am just stating it as a fact. Valiant collectors are very picky about the condition of their books, where my average customer these days just does not give a "you know what".

[paradise]

Boom! which just won publisher of the year have 28+ titles and only 10 of them are in the top 300 (according to the December numbers)
Adventure Time is their top seller at around 15K every month but most of their other titles are below 5K
All 8 VEI's titles are in the top 300 and the lowest title Bloodshot is at 8K (which is still better than all but 4 Boom! titles)
We all want VEI to be the toast of the town right now ... but relatively speaking they are doing very well and we just need to be patient as they slowly build up the universe.

And Boom was faltering a bit before they got Adventure Time which has been a monster for them. 15k is VERY misleading, it only lists direct market numbers which are a drop in the insane sales bucket of Adventure Time. I know NUMBERS, i am really good friends with the boom guys, and direct market is just a way to get the license. They produce good Licensed stuff, but that's a lot easier than running a shared universe. it has its own challenges though.

And you are right, and I made the same point in one of my other posts. 8K is a HUGE number in this market, I don't understand the panic in this thread. these days publishers get much better deals on printing so they can make lots of money on 8k. ALSO, that's 8k in direct market, you are not counting graphic novel sales in book market, library markets (which some of us do REALLY WELL in, if you are local stop by Pasadena Public Library, 100% bought from my store) and Educational markets.

[paradise]

No matter how good the story and art are, you will loose retailer support when they constantly have to deal with damaged books being returned to diamond. And you will lose collectors when they can not seem to find "NM" books.
I think the constant variants also takes away from the importance of an individual issue and causes confusing for new buyers.

1. Variants do not take away from story at all, that's ridiculous. Buyers in this market are used to multiple covers on EVERYTHING so that's not valid at all.
2. I order more Valiant books than probably 90% of comic retailers in US, and I don't spend that much time returning damaged books to diamond. Again, it's a self-propagading myth created on this site because members here are very condition sensitive, and most only buy Valiant books so they do not see that other publishers books look the same (they are printed at the same printer for god's sake, there are only like 3 printers that do comics, 1 does nothing but marvel/dc, that only leaves 2 choices).

[paradise]

My concern is if they can keep the creators happy, for if we lose Dysart, Vditty, or FVL (really, if we lose even one of them) VEI will be in trouble.

COMPLETELY disagree. I know that when a popular creator leaves a Marvel book, sales drop. that's because there are two distinct groups buying that book, fans of the book, and fans of the creator.

With Valiant, it's different. I don't know too many people that are buying X-O Manowar for Venditti. Love Robert, great guy, have known him for a lot longer than most people here (he was my rep at Top Shelf) but I am pretty positive people are buying X-O for the character. I believe it's the same with all Valiant books. There are no big creators on them that bring readers from outside that read the books just for them.

Matt Kindt may be coming as close as it can to an exception.

[SJS4]

Regarding the issue of damage, personally i tend to agree with paradise. I haven't noticed anything unusual about the condition of my VEI books when compared to other purchases. Even though VEI is what got me back in to comics, they make up less than 50% of my monthly titles at present and i don't think there is anything wrong with the books condition 95%+ of the time. I have only gotten one "damaged" issue ever, the rest is mainly normal wear and tear that all books placed on shelf get.

I should add that i don't buy any Marvel or DC books currently. Mainly Dark Horse and VEI.

[VEI Reborn]

Yes, its time the variants stopped. It apparently helps their bottom line up front but it CERTAINLY hurts them on the back end.
An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants. There is no demand for back issue collecting and speculating. Too much speculating is a bad thing but there needs to be at the very least ...some. Once this demand is there, it will certainly bring new readers in and once they realize how good the books really are, many will be hooked. I bet they could increase their sales 10% with a quickness just by publically announcing no more variants except on special occasions.
Why do some Image books sell 40k copies and the books are no where near as good as a Valiant book [enter a title here]. Speculation. Why do these same books drop to 20k copies after the first few issues? Lack of merit. Get speculation into the mix and sales will increase and with the quality content they are putting out...you wont see a huge drop off. Speculation is good if the content can match or exceed it and Valiant certainly can.
Just my opinion guys, Im sure not everyone will agree. This is coming from someone that heavily collects all that is Valiant.

Aaron, the thing is for every one of you who says, "No more Variants" there are dozens who email me on daily basis looking for Variants. There is a REAL demand for these books. And I know I order a lot more books because of the variants, to fill those demands, which gives numbers to VEI. Every store that would have ordered 15 copies, that now orders 20 to get a variant, is increasing their exposure, and valiant's numbers at that store by 25%. You can't possibly say that's a bad idea. And if those sell OK, and on the big issue he steps up to the 1:50, that's doubling his numbers and exposing more people who would never see the book had he sold out of his 20 copies. That's the real purpose of variants, and the reason they are a necessary "evil".

You bring up Image Comics, but that's a TOTALLY different bird. It's creator-owned books being put out BY THE CREATOR. Nobody else is involved financially in that deal. Image charges creator a "fee" to put it out, but they have to pay for everything else and hope to make money. If they do well, they get 100% of everything, but if they lose money (and most do lose) Image does not care. That's not the same model as Valiant, who has shareholders and tons of fans, and lots of editorial mandates to keep the universe together. It's two completely different ways to do comics.

Here is the kicker. Most Valiant titles are selling more copies than mid-to-low tier Image titles. No, not Brian K. Vaughn and Ed Brubaker books, but many others. I know this because some of these creators are friends and they wish they had these numbers.

I buy every variant. In fact, I buy multiples of nearly every variant. I buy multiples of every book they put out. I do so to help support them in the small way that I can and because I am a completest. *beyond the one copy I need to read

Obviously you selling new issues you see the front end but do you specialize in back issue demand? If not, that could jade your thinking a bit no? I honestly do not know which is why I ask. I do not deny the numbers [and no question you would know better than I] and I do not deny it helps them on the front end. I still stand by my opinion that it hurts on the back end though. Why is there no speculation? Why is there no demand for back issues on the second hand market? Im a firm believer it is 95% to do with too many variants, it is killing that corner of the comic business which is a totally untapped opportunity.

I know you are a busy man but try this for giggles if you get a chance and ask these guys that buy the variants that if Valiant didn't have them would they miss them or are they just buying them because they are there. Personally I am only buying them because they are there and really wish they weren't [so many anyhow] and I know a lot of people feel the same way I do.

Don't get me wrong here guys, I am not sour in any way. I just feel they are missing the boat in one aspect but are nailing it in others. Again this is all my opinion and as I don't work for Valiant and I am certainly not their accountant.

[paradise]

An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants.

Aaron, I know you pretty well by now, we have done a lot of stuff together, I know what you buy and I think I know why.

Most of the "speculation" market these days centers around creator owned properties that are severely under-ordered or have media-right connections (i.e. tv show or movie futures) that people are gambling on. it's the Walking Dead effect. Everyone is trying to find the next WD. That will never happen to VEI no matter how many variants they produce or not produce.

The only way it will happen is if they are severely under-ordered. Like in 1k-2k range. But then VEI is in much bigger trouble, because they don't make ANY money off speculation, which means they will be out of business. It's not like the 90s, the costs are a lot higher. They can't run on those numbers till the speculators notice and Wizard magazine makes them big. Nobody does this type of speculating EN MASSE. It just does not happen.

I really hope fans here understand, what happened in the 90s with prices WILL NEVER EVER EVER HAPPEN AGAIN. The story about how Gareb Shamus by his lonesome created the "Valiant boom" are fun, but there is no such entity that people believe blindly these days (no, not even Bleeding Cool) and people are not this gullible anymore either.

For every fan who made a killing on early Valiants, there are 5 longboxes of Rai & The Future Force and Bloodshot 8 in my "Comics by the pound" bins, from people who have dropped them off at the store in the night, and left them in front of my door. That's the reality.

[bygranddesign]

Boom! which just won publisher of the year have 28+ titles and only 10 of them are in the top 300 (according to the December numbers)
Adventure Time is their top seller at around 15K every month but most of their other titles are below 5K
All 8 VEI's titles are in the top 300 and the lowest title Bloodshot is at 8K (which is still better than all but 4 Boom! titles)
We all want VEI to be the toast of the town right now ... but relatively speaking they are doing very well and we just need to be patient as they slowly build up the universe.

And Boom was faltering a bit before they got Adventure Time which has been a monster for them. 15k is VERY misleading, it only lists direct market numbers which are a drop in the insane sales bucket of Adventure Time. I know NUMBERS, i am really good friends with the boom guys, and direct market is just a way to get the license. They produce good Licensed stuff, but that's a lot easier than running a shared universe. it has its own challenges though.

And you are right, and I made the same point in one of my other posts. 8K is a HUGE number in this market, I don't understand the panic in this thread. these days publishers get much better deals on printing so they can make lots of money on 8k. ALSO, that's 8k in direct market, you are not counting graphic novel sales in book market, library markets (which some of us do REALLY WELL in, if you are local stop by Pasadena Public Library, 100% bought from my store) and Educational markets.

Ed, Thanks for your posts in this thread

Hopefully it will put some people's minds at ease

[The Noto]

...You can't possibly say that's a bad idea. And if those sell OK, and on the big issue he steps up to the 1:50, that's doubling his numbers and exposing more people who would never see the book had he sold out of his 20 copies. That's the real purpose of variants, and the reason they are a necessary "evil".

I'm cool with most of what you're saying. I try to get every variant too. My issue is with the 1:50's on random issues. Then you have the Shadowman #13/Eternal Warrior #5 issue problem. I just don't think these books are as justified having a 1:50 as, say, Unity #1. My LCS is no where as big as yours, I'm sure. We probably have a good 25 or so Valiant customers. Some books, like Eternal Warrior don't sell well at all, we would have a ton of shelf copies going nowhere if we were to purchase 50 copies. Harbinger and X-O, we don't have that problem with.

[ckb]

An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants.

Aaron, I know you pretty well by now, we have done a lot of stuff together, I know what you buy and I think I know why.

Most of the "speculation" market these days centers around creator owned properties that are severely under-ordered or have media-right connections (i.e. tv show or movie futures) that people are gambling on. it's the Walking Dead effect. Everyone is trying to find the next WD. That will never happen to VEI no matter how many variants they produce or not produce.

The only way it will happen is if they are severely under-ordered. Like in 1k-2k range. But then VEI is in much bigger trouble, because they don't make ANY money off speculation, which means they will be out of business. It's not like the 90s, the costs are a lot higher. They can't run on those numbers till the speculators notice and Wizard magazine makes them big. Nobody does this type of speculating EN MASSE. It just does not happen.

I really hope fans here understand, what happened in the 90s with prices WILL NEVER EVER EVER HAPPEN AGAIN. The story about how Gareb Shamus by his lonesome created the "Valiant boom" are fun, but there is no such entity that people believe blindly these days (no, not even Bleeding Cool) and people are not this gullible anymore either.

For every fan who made a killing on early Valiants, there are 5 longboxes of Rai & The Future Force and Bloodshot 8 in my "Comics by the pound" bins, from people who have dropped them off at the store in the night, and left them in front of my door. That's the reality.

Ed, I agreed with you up to this post, but here I do not.

- VEI will be entering mass media, or they will fail. I know it is the VEI management teams' top focus. So, you are premature saying that there will be no room for VEI in the speculation market.

- It is also surprising to see you write that VEI makes no money off of speculation. Of course they do - more books purchased is more money for VEI. I think you may have been trying to say that VEI makes no money off the secondary market, and I disagree with that as well. People want what they cannot have. Apparent demand is sometimes just as good as actual demand, and any comic book publisher who completely ignores the secondary market does so at their own peril. This market is a driver for future sales of current books.

My personal feeling is they should run lean and make the 1st prints hard to get for awhile, possibly leading up to a mass media event. The best way to do this would be to cut out the variants, because that would curtail over-ordering from the retailers. I would begin printing-to-order with a very tight overprint and go to press immediately with second prints and TPBs on everything so everyone who wants to read them can. Make the later printings the variants.

- As far as the hype machine goes, I think I agree with you there. In today's market we need actual or perceived demand for the current books. After that, hype helps, but hype by itself is not going to do it today.

[paradise]

...You can't possibly say that's a bad idea. And if those sell OK, and on the big issue he steps up to the 1:50, that's doubling his numbers and exposing more people who would never see the book had he sold out of his 20 copies. That's the real purpose of variants, and the reason they are a necessary "evil".

I'm cool with most of what you're saying. I try to get every variant too. My issue is with the 1:50's on random issues. Then you have the Shadowman #13/Eternal Warrior #5 issue problem. I just don't think these books are as justified having a 1:50 as, say, Unity #1. My LCS is no where as big as yours, I'm sure. We probably have a good 25 or so Valiant customers. Some books, like Eternal Warrior don't sell well at all, we would have a ton of shelf copies going nowhere if we were to purchase 50 copies. Harbinger and X-O, we don't have that problem with.

Again, I have to disagree. Shadowman 13 was a relaunch of the book, new direction, writer, artist, costume, EVERYTHING. It Should have been #1, and I would argue a possible RARE miss by VEI so far. Eternal Warrior #5 is a HUGE book, introduction of 4001, future universe, all big things. Both issues that were opportunity for NEW readers, thus an attempt by VEI to push retailer orders.

Your store, if it has 25 customers, should have 2 dedicated guys buying variants, which means 50 copies should give them 2 x 1:25 and 1x 1:50. Those three books should easily get $100 or very close to it, the cost of 50 copies. If your retailer is not doing it, they are literally losing money, and here is why:

In our business we call it "finding a ceiling for a book". We order more than enough #1s to make sure we judge 30 days later how many we CAN sell. If I order 25 copies and sell out, I am doing the WRONG thing because I never find out if I could sell 30, 35, 40 or more. By ordering 50 copies and actually taking time to tell customers, your retailer could find that he has more than 25 Valiant fans. AND THAT's the WHOLE POINT of variants. It is subsidizing retailer to prevent them from making bad decisions.

There is NOTHING random about VEi's 1:50 (or any other) Variant efforts.

[BugsySig]

It might be a conflict of interest, but VEI should totally hire Ed to go around to different forums and shut down any negativity or wacky claims.

I can't argue with his expertise or knowledge of the market or VEI in particular. Some may not agree individually, based on their own beliefs or buying habbits, but Ed deals with hundreds, if not thousands, of consumers.

Just a note on the damage...I totally agree. I am very picky when I do go in to buy floppies (rare nowadays, but anyway) and it is always a chore sorting through the books, no matter who the publisher is.

I got 50 of the VFans FCBDs, which are thinner and printed with lower quality stock, and even after having passed through Diamond, Greg's LCS, Greg and finally KJJohanson to get to me, then being hauled through the streets of NYC and multiple train rides, there were 2 completely trash worthy copies. About 3 others had noticeable creases on a corner. That's 10% after all that.

[VEI Reborn]

An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants.

Aaron, I know you pretty well by now, we have done a lot of stuff together, I know what you buy and I think I know why.

Most of the "speculation" market these days centers around creator owned properties that are severely under-ordered or have media-right connections (i.e. tv show or movie futures) that people are gambling on. it's the Walking Dead effect. Everyone is trying to find the next WD. That will never happen to VEI no matter how many variants they produce or not produce.

The only way it will happen is if they are severely under-ordered. Like in 1k-2k range. But then VEI is in much bigger trouble, because they don't make ANY money off speculation, which means they will be out of business. It's not like the 90s, the costs are a lot higher. They can't run on those numbers till the speculators notice and Wizard magazine makes them big. Nobody does this type of speculating EN MASSE. It just does not happen.

I really hope fans here understand, what happened in the 90s with prices WILL NEVER EVER EVER HAPPEN AGAIN. The story about how Gareb Shamus by his lonesome created the "Valiant boom" are fun, but there is no such entity that people believe blindly these days (no, not even Bleeding Cool) and people are not this gullible anymore either.

For every fan who made a killing on early Valiants, there are 5 longboxes of Rai & The Future Force and Bloodshot 8 in my "Comics by the pound" bins, from people who have dropped them off at the store in the night, and left them in front of my door. That's the reality.

Ed, I agreed with you up to this post, but here I do not.

- VEI will be entering mass media, or they will fail. I know it is the VEI management teams' top focus. So, you are premature saying that there will be no room for VEI in the speculation market.

- It is also surprising to see you write that VEI makes no money off of speculation. Of course they do - more books purchased is more money for VEI. I think you may have been trying to say that VEI makes no money off the secondary market, and I disagree with that as well. People want what they cannot have. Apparent demand is sometimes just as good as actual demand, and any comic book publisher who completely ignores the secondary market does so at their own peril. This market is a driver for future sales of current books.

My personal feeling is they should run lean and make the 1st prints hard to get for awhile, possibly leading up to a mass media event. The best way to do this would be to cut out the variants, because that would curtail over-ordering from the retailers. I would begin printing-to-order with a very tight overprint and go to press immediately with second prints and TPBs on everything so everyone who wants to read them can. Make the later printings the variants.

- As far as the hype machine goes, I think I agree with you there. In today's market we need actual or perceived demand for the current books. After that, hype helps, but hype by itself is not going to do it today.

Couldn't have said it any better [obviously because I didn't lol] . I think this is what I was trying to get across and what I believe is causing the lack of secondary demand is the amount of variants.

[VEI Reborn]

An untapped market [if you will] is the secondary market. Nothing kills the secondary market like too many variants.

Aaron, I know you pretty well by now, we have done a lot of stuff together, I know what you buy and I think I know why.

Most of the "speculation" market these days centers around creator owned properties that are severely under-ordered or have media-right connections (i.e. tv show or movie futures) that people are gambling on. it's the Walking Dead effect. Everyone is trying to find the next WD. That will never happen to VEI no matter how many variants they produce or not produce.

The only way it will happen is if they are severely under-ordered. Like in 1k-2k range. But then VEI is in much bigger trouble, because they don't make ANY money off speculation, which means they will be out of business. It's not like the 90s, the costs are a lot higher. They can't run on those numbers till the speculators notice and Wizard magazine makes them big. Nobody does this type of speculating EN MASSE. It just does not happen.

I really hope fans here understand, what happened in the 90s with prices WILL NEVER EVER EVER HAPPEN AGAIN. The story about how Gareb Shamus by his lonesome created the "Valiant boom" are fun, but there is no such entity that people believe blindly these days (no, not even Bleeding Cool) and people are not this gullible anymore either.

For every fan who made a killing on early Valiants, there are 5 longboxes of Rai & The Future Force and Bloodshot 8 in my "Comics by the pound" bins, from people who have dropped them off at the store in the night, and left them in front of my door. That's the reality.

I actually buy about 100 titles a month, most of which just to read. I do buy 50-500 copies of certain books to speculate on but all in fun as I nearly never sell. Seriously, all the books that I have bought from you I haven't ever sold a single one lol. Granted my comic disposable income is higher than most so I can do that, but just putting the cards on the table from where I am coming from.

I certainly take what you have to say as a good source of education [based on your real life experience] but I just feel that these books are too damn good to be only selling 10k copies each month *for the most part. The art is good, the stories are good, the universe is coming together, there are crossover events, tie ins, mini series events and they [valiant] advertises a decent amount.....so why the heck are the books not selling more? IMO a decent % is from the lack of secondary market and I blame the AMOUNT of variants [not just the variants themselves].

Now this is not to even say that Valiant isn't happy with their sales numbers and I hope that I am not coming off as negative as I want nothing more than to see Valiant selling a boat load of books every month and build a movie universe that becomes a smashing success as well. Id also like to say that I much appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts on things.

[StarBrand]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

[tchalla8]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

Readers have to come first. I think we can all agree there.

[StarBrand]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

Readers have to come first. I think we can all agree there.

Obviously we don't all agree there. I don't, and if you read this thread others are alluding to the collector being harmed by all the variants VEI is putting out. Read through the rest of the board, and other boards, and you'll see this being alluded to with regularity. Again, it's called comic book collecting for a reason.
Bill Jemas limited Marvel's overprinting for a period of time, and made Marvel comics collector friendly again. Even Peter David, an outspoken critic of Jemas doing this, eventually admitted Jemas was right by adopting this approach, as Jemas helped guide Marvel back to profitability with his non-overprinting policy.
Valiant Comics should be collectable. VEI Comics are not. I think it would work wonders if VEI dropped their aggressive approach with variants.

[Shadowman99]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

Isn't a medium, where the core bulk of the product is a story, most likely to target a demographic of readers?

I understand everything that's been said in the thread regarding (basically) covers being used to sell books and the financial importance that has on Valiant's ability to continue trading as a business. I also understand that for as long as comic books are published, there will be people that emphasise the importance of collecting the product over reading it.

I suppose that somewhat supports your argument for selling books for creators, however, I don't think for a moment that printing lower runs to cater to back issue/collector demand is going to favour Valiant as a company at all. In fact, it'll directly harm it, because it basically results in missed sales: For instance, Valiant print 1,000 copies of issue #X, and 1,500 people want to buy the comic: That's 500 people the company have failed to make money off. That's the kind of sales practice that causes a company to cave regardless of product.

Once Valiant have sold those 1000 copies, they don't make money off those books ever again, regardless of how much the books sell for between collectors/speculators. So why would they lower print runs to support that practice? It makes no sense.

A market in which a story is sold as the product should most definitely be targeting a reading demographic. Otherwise it'd be like trying to sell pork hotdogs to vegetarians: the business will simply never make enough money to sustain itself.

[StarBrand]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

Isn't a medium, where the core bulk of the product is a story, most likely to target a demographic of readers?

I understand everything that's been said in the thread regarding (basically) covers being used to sell books and the financial importance that has on Valiant's ability to continue trading as a business. I also understand that for as long as comic books are published, there will be people that emphasise the importance of collecting the product over reading it.

I suppose that somewhat supports your argument for selling books for creators, however, I don't think for a moment that printing lower runs to cater to back issue/collector demand is going to favour Valiant as a company at all. In fact, it'll directly harm it, because it basically results in missed sales: For instance, Valiant print 1,000 copies of issue #X, and 1,500 people want to buy the comic: That's 500 people the company have failed to make money off. That's the kind of sales practice that causes a company to cave regardless of product.

Once Valiant have sold those 1000 copies, they don't make money off those books ever again, regardless of how much the books sell for between collectors/speculators. So why would they lower print runs to support that practice? It makes no sense.

A market in which a story is sold as the product should most definitely be targeting a reading demographic. Otherwise it'd be like trying to sell pork hotdogs to vegetarians: the business will simply never make enough money to sustain itself.

I don't think I ever said VEI should not target new readers. That would be stupid. What I'm saying is VEI should make their comics collectable by not artificially raising print runs with an enormously aggressive variant policy. Did initial limiting of print runs work for Jemas at Marvel by building print runs over time because the comics were collectable, or did it not?

[Shadowman99]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

Isn't a medium, where the core bulk of the product is a story, most likely to target a demographic of readers?

I understand everything that's been said in the thread regarding (basically) covers being used to sell books and the financial importance that has on Valiant's ability to continue trading as a business. I also understand that for as long as comic books are published, there will be people that emphasise the importance of collecting the product over reading it.

I suppose that somewhat supports your argument for selling books for creators, however, I don't think for a moment that printing lower runs to cater to back issue/collector demand is going to favour Valiant as a company at all. In fact, it'll directly harm it, because it basically results in missed sales: For instance, Valiant print 1,000 copies of issue #X, and 1,500 people want to buy the comic: That's 500 people the company have failed to make money off. That's the kind of sales practice that causes a company to cave regardless of product.

Once Valiant have sold those 1000 copies, they don't make money off those books ever again, regardless of how much the books sell for between collectors/speculators. So why would they lower print runs to support that practice? It makes no sense.

A market in which a story is sold as the product should most definitely be targeting a reading demographic. Otherwise it'd be like trying to sell pork hotdogs to vegetarians: the business will simply never make enough money to sustain itself.

I don't think I ever said VEI should not target new readers. That would be stupid. What I'm saying is VEI should make their comics collectable. Did initial limiting of print runs work for Jemas at Marvel by building print runs over time because the comics were collectable, or did it not?

That's not what I said either.

I said that lower print runs would result in missed sales for VEI, and that I didn't feel that this would benefit the company.

[StarBrand]

Dino was a comic book collector at one time, but it seems his publishing company has now forsaken comic book collectors.
The variants are killing the back issue market on the regular issues by making the regular issues uncollectable by forcing print runs up beyond demand.
It's called comic book collecting for a reason. Bill Jemas was right when he identified this when he was at Marvel. I would've hoped Jemas had been able to get this across to VEI when he was a consultant for them. In my opinion VEI is hurting the collectors of their product for short term profits. We all need to accept the fact VEI is targeting and catering to readers, not collectors. The collector is of little concern to VEI.

Isn't a medium, where the core bulk of the product is a story, most likely to target a demographic of readers?

I understand everything that's been said in the thread regarding (basically) covers being used to sell books and the financial importance that has on Valiant's ability to continue trading as a business. I also understand that for as long as comic books are published, there will be people that emphasise the importance of collecting the product over reading it.

I suppose that somewhat supports your argument for selling books for creators, however, I don't think for a moment that printing lower runs to cater to back issue/collector demand is going to favour Valiant as a company at all. In fact, it'll directly harm it, because it basically results in missed sales: For instance, Valiant print 1,000 copies of issue #X, and 1,500 people want to buy the comic: That's 500 people the company have failed to make money off. That's the kind of sales practice that causes a company to cave regardless of product.

Once Valiant have sold those 1000 copies, they don't make money off those books ever again, regardless of how much the books sell for between collectors/speculators. So why would they lower print runs to support that practice? It makes no sense.

A market in which a story is sold as the product should most definitely be targeting a reading demographic. Otherwise it'd be like trying to sell pork hotdogs to vegetarians: the business will simply never make enough money to sustain itself.

I don't think I ever said VEI should not target new readers. That would be stupid. What I'm saying is VEI should make their comics collectable. Did initial limiting of print runs work for Jemas at Marvel by building print runs over time because the comics were collectable, or did it not?

That's not what I said either.

I said that lower print runs would result in missed sales for VEI, and that I didn't feel that this would benefit the company.

I respect your opinion. I think VEI's approach is common among current publishers, not unusual. Certainly they are getting immediate sales gratification with their variant policy. It's my opinion they would do better over the long run by ending that policy and allowing their regular issues to have print runs according to demand.