Shadowman 13

[krylox]

well, i have to say i was quite disappointed. this could have clearly been a more impressive "relaunch". and i was one of those very excited for milligan to come on board. while the drawings were first class, the writing was a little bit dull and redundant, like really light on words and complexity. the plot was ok, but also quite static, not much happened here. to be sincere, this felt like a average work-for-hire job and not like something, where milligan really feels it and brings his a-game. pity.

if this would be a non-vei book, i'd probably not pick up the next issue.

Yep, you phrased it better than I did. The very last sentence is very true, I didn't type that same sentiment but should've.

I gave the issue a 2 o 5 stars, seriously I think the CBR reviewer gave it more slack than you or I.

nonetheless i will stick with it for the first arc. feel really sorry for vei. they're in a rough spot right now. some of their creators go to bed with the enemy - pak, van lente. others are not able or willing to reach their optimum skill level - pak (again!), milligan and (don't hit me now) to a lesser degree kindt, too. his unity is pretty entertaining. but pretty entertaining is just not enough for the most promoted vei-book in history. when it's also maybe one of the last chances to pour in new readers.

now i start to understand why shooter used to write every single book in the beginning of valiant...

really, i'd be totally up for it for dysart to step in and write 4 or 5 books a month. they could (maybe: should!) make him partner and i'm pretty sure this would make for a far more cohesive and intense valiant experience.

/rant over.

[Captain Craig]

I agree they should have gone generic voodoo backwoods witch or something less...I don't know...nonsensical? It's New Orleans, they should try to capture the flavor of the culture at every turn. Let that be what sets them apart.

Nah, then we'd have been calling out 'cliche' and predictable! I agree that using an English punk is a unique choice but lets see what Milligan's got in store for this character?

Are you saying internet message fanboys can't be pleased no matter what?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Say it isn't so!!!

[jmatt]

I agree they should have gone generic voodoo backwoods witch or something less...I don't know...nonsensical? It's New Orleans, they should try to capture the flavor of the culture at every turn.

I agree. It didn't rub me the wrong way all that hard but it did seem out of place -- and a little bit like a missed opportunity to marinate the book a bit more in traditional voodoo culture.

Punk Rock Mambo could easily work as, say, a character that runs a voodoo store in the consumery French Quarter district and helps Jack out from time to time. But her as the all-powerful priestess in a ramshackle hut buried miles in the bayou? Mmmm....

I'm happy to hang back and see where it goes though.

[Dallow Spicer1]

I agree they should have gone generic voodoo backwoods witch or something less...I don't know...nonsensical? It's New Orleans, they should try to capture the flavor of the culture at every turn. Let that be what sets them apart.

Nah, then we'd have been calling out 'cliche' and predictable! I agree that using an English punk is a unique choice but lets see what Milligan's got in store for this character?

Are you saying internet message fanboys can't be pleased no matter what?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Say it isn't so!!!

[Heath]

Punk Rock Mambo could easily work as, say, a character that runs a voodoo store in the consumery French Quarter district and helps Jack out from time to time. But her as the all-powerful priestess in a ramshackle hut buried miles in the bayou? Mmmm....

I completely agree with that.

[bygranddesign]

The Punk Mambo was JUST introduced. Milligan is not going to reveal everything about her yet I'm sure he has a detailed backstory for her that will come in time. She is a character that I think will have a long term impact on the title; i'm glad its not a generic, cliche voodoo priestess.

She probably performs her rituals in the Bayou hut (perhaps its an area that is conducive to voodoo powers?) ...and goes home to the city and does her punk rocking there. There is probably a HUNDRED good explanations .. lets sit back and enjoy the ride a little...

[leonmallett]

Overall some good and some not so good for me with this issue.

I mostly liked de la Torre's art, but a couple of panels seemed a little confusing as I was reading, and took a few scans forwards and back to figure out. by and large though, the art felt right to me.

Making the mambo a punk rock girl from English public school via her own rebellion just made me cringe; it did not feel new, and worse as others have noted felt out of place.

Finally, adding the history of violence back-story felt forced; it was a layer seemingly plucked out of nowhere after 13 other issues of set-up. I am in the camp that not every VEI lead hero should be swathed in shades of grey; I'd like some more recognizably heroic types, and that could be taken away from Jack as we know him if they (VEI and Milligan) are not careful.

I will be sticking with it, but a lot of the issue had me thinking Vertigo-lite (not wanting to invoke a DC-lite comparison from the board's past, but it is there); I want VEI to be its own thing, and this did not feel like *that*.

[Dallow Spicer1]

Overall some good and some not so good for me with this issue.

I mostly liked de la Torre's art, but a couple of panels seemed a little confusing as I was reading, and too a few scans forwards and back to figure out. by and large though, the art felt right to me.

Making the mambo a punk rock girl from English public school via her own rebellion just made me cringe; it did not feel new, and worse as others have noted felt out of place.

Finally, adding the history of violence back-story felt forced; it was a layer seemingly plucked out of nowhere after 13 other issues of set-up. I am in the camp that not every VEI lead hero should be swathed in shades of grey; I'd like some more recognizably heroic types, and that could be taken away from Jack as we know him if they (VEI and Milligan) are not careful.

I will be sticking with it, but a lot of the issue had me thinking Vertigo-lite (not wanting to invoke a DC-lite comparison from the board's past, but it is there); I want VEI to be its own thing, and this did not feel like *that*.

I think Milligan had to do something and quick to make Jack interesting. I'd already dropped this book a couple of issues ago so for me it was important to get my attention again. I didn't think it was 'forced' that Jack has a violent past, the books only been running 12 months and we knew little about Jack so anything is possible! Stick with it fellas, lets see what the new team can do!

[BugsySig]

Just wondering why people think Milligan has made Jack a killer?

In the flashback another kid says, "You killed him!" That doesn't mean the kid he beat up is dead. The children could have been exaggerating. And since this memory has been repressed, finding out the rest of that story is a journey we are on with Jack.

And the people he beat up in the alley weren't dead. If they were, why would Jack have called for an ambulance

It's also not too far fetched based on what we did learn about Jack in the first two arcs. He beat up those men in the diner that killed AAA and might have killed them had he not been pulled away. He also was shown having nightmares about his time as a foster child and losing his memory of his time as Shadowman after he was first attacked by the demon cops. So there is precedent.

I really could care less if Jack was a killer, as the Shadowman likely needs to kill at times and VH1 Jack killed plenty of people. But as of now, we have no proof he has done so.

[jmatt]

In the flashback another kid says, "You killed him!" That doesn't mean the kid he beat up is dead. The children could have been exaggerating. And since this memory has been repressed, finding out the rest of that story is a journey we are on with Jack.

Yeah, that's the vibe I got. This is a backstory mystery that will be explored going forward so Jack can come to grips with his past.

[leonmallett]

Just wondering why people think Milligan has made Jack a killer?...

For me it is not the retrospective addition of being a killer; as you say, it is actually unclear.

It just feels to me like a layer that was inserted that did not seem to fit what went before. I think there are many ways to make Jack 'interesting', and it may play out well and in a satisfying way through this arc, but the sudden insertion of Jack's added back-story along with the added layer of hitherto unseen senior Abettors just felt forced overall, as in fact did the mambo priestess. One ot two of these fine, three pushed it for me.

I will be sticking with this book (it still ranks as far stronger than Quantum and Woody for example for me), just to say that this soft reboot that seems to have thrown maybe a little too much into the mix all at once for me.

[Shadowman99]

Really, really liking this revamp of Shadowman.

A lot of people have been complaining that the punk mambo is too odd a fit for the setting, but I thought she was really great. Valiant could have put Nettie in the comic, or a more 'typical' voodoo mambo, and I would have simply accepted the concept, but putting a character so radically different made it really interesting. I suppose a lot of you probably won't be able to relate to this, but as a native Brit the character fits the concept really well, and here's why: It's indisputably well known in England that kids get up to crazy 'extracurricular activites' in private boarding schools, and it's definitely been heard of that kids have dabbled in the occult to various degrees so; the idea of a private school girl that's perhaps struggled to perform academically and has discovered and prioritised other talents, and subsequently decided to move to a place where she can really concentrate on what she's good at, doesn't seem like too far a jump to me.

And having said that, the Loa tells Jack that it was the punk mambo's ancestors that were responsible for its banishment, which is surely interesting in itself?

Another big topic here seems to be whether or not Jack/Shadowman should kill. The first thing that occurs to me here is that he's been dispatching malevolent souls, demons and Darque's soulforms in deadside since day one of the comic and nobody's batted an eyelid: So what's changed now that he's harming humans? And the shadow Loa makes the cheval the walker between the worlds of liveside and deadside: What makes anyone think for a moment that the Loa would hesitate to send a soul to its domain? In fact, in this very issue the answer to that is revealed when Jack pins the mambo to the wall. So shouldn't we be expecting Shadowman to be able to kill any enemy without showing concern? On the other hand it's obvious that Jack does not enjoy killing: Surely then it would make for some very interesting character exploration to have Jack/Shadowman kill, and deal with the consequences? And given the new tone of the comic, surely death should be a strong theme in the comic, one way or another? So why not have Shadowman kill his enemies where he sees fit?

I really enjoyed this issue and thought everything about it was exactly what the comic should have been since its contemporary conception, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what else is to come from this 'new' Shadowman.

[Dallow Spicer1]

It's indisputably well known in England that kids get up to crazy 'extracurricular activites' in private boarding schools, and it's definitely been heard of that kids have dabbled in the occult to various degrees so.

Love the fact that you use indisputable facts on behalf of the UK ! You've certainly got my vote if you run for spokesperson!

I agree with your post, this is what Shadowman should have been from the relaunch.

[leonmallett]

Really, really liking this revamp of Shadowman.

A lot of people have been complaining that the punk mambo is too odd a fit for the setting, but I thought she was really great. Valiant could have put Nettie in the comic, or a more 'typical' voodoo mambo, and I would have simply accepted the concept, but putting a character so radically different made it really interesting. I suppose a lot of you probably won't be able to relate to this, but as a native Brit the character fits the concept really well, and here's why: It's indisputably well known in England that kids get up to crazy 'extracurricular activites' in private boarding schools, and it's definitely been heard of that kids have dabbled in the occult to various degrees so; the idea of a private school girl that's perhaps struggled to perform academically and has discovered and prioritised other talents, and subsequently decided to move to a place where she can really concentrate on what she's good at, doesn't seem like too far a jump to me...

Time for another Brit to disagree; punk rock public school girl goes heavyweight mambo priestess - feels like a cliched take on late 80's/early 90's Vertigo to me, which is a shame as Milligan was there in that time.

Horses for courses of course, but you do raise an important question: why not just Nettie instead of this new character which in no way feels too original.

[jmatt]

And having said that, the Loa tells Jack that it was the punk mambo's ancestors that were responsible for its banishment, which is surely interesting in itself?

I missed or forgot that. That does kinda make her character more appropriate.

[Shadowman99]

Really, really liking this revamp of Shadowman.

A lot of people have been complaining that the punk mambo is too odd a fit for the setting, but I thought she was really great. Valiant could have put Nettie in the comic, or a more 'typical' voodoo mambo, and I would have simply accepted the concept, but putting a character so radically different made it really interesting. I suppose a lot of you probably won't be able to relate to this, but as a native Brit the character fits the concept really well, and here's why: It's indisputably well known in England that kids get up to crazy 'extracurricular activites' in private boarding schools, and it's definitely been heard of that kids have dabbled in the occult to various degrees so; the idea of a private school girl that's perhaps struggled to perform academically and has discovered and prioritised other talents, and subsequently decided to move to a place where she can really concentrate on what she's good at, doesn't seem like too far a jump to me...

Time for another Brit to disagree; punk rock public school girl goes heavyweight mambo priestess - feels like a cliched take on late 80's/early 90's Vertigo to me, which is a shame as Milligan was there in that time.

Horses for courses of course, but you do raise an important question: why not just Nettie instead of this new character which in no way feels too original.

Can I be a Brit that disagrees with a disagreeing Brit then?

I don't really mind that you disagree, 'cos it doesn't really matter if we have different opinions. We're allowed I like the character and the idea behind it makes sense to me, under the construct of: private schoolgirl dabbles in the occult at school and discovers she shares the same talent for voodoo that her ancestors did, her parents get *SQUEE* off at her slipping grades and, in a typical punk-rock way, she tells 'em to "p1ss orf" and makes her way to New Orleans so that she can explore and practice voodoo further, and becomes rather good at it.

On the note of this character not being "too original" though, surely it's inherently impossible for a more traditional Nettie character to be original also? Seeing as there have already been two previous incarnations of the character?

Funny how it hasn't occurred to anyone that this as-yet-unnamed voodoo mambo could actually be Nettie: Punk girls are known for wearing fishnets, are they not? Nettie wouldn't be an awfully difficult nickname to come by now, would it?

[leonmallett]

Really, really liking this revamp of Shadowman.

A lot of people have been complaining that the punk mambo is too odd a fit for the setting, but I thought she was really great. Valiant could have put Nettie in the comic, or a more 'typical' voodoo mambo, and I would have simply accepted the concept, but putting a character so radically different made it really interesting. I suppose a lot of you probably won't be able to relate to this, but as a native Brit the character fits the concept really well, and here's why: It's indisputably well known in England that kids get up to crazy 'extracurricular activites' in private boarding schools, and it's definitely been heard of that kids have dabbled in the occult to various degrees so; the idea of a private school girl that's perhaps struggled to perform academically and has discovered and prioritised other talents, and subsequently decided to move to a place where she can really concentrate on what she's good at, doesn't seem like too far a jump to me...

Time for another Brit to disagree; punk rock public school girl goes heavyweight mambo priestess - feels like a cliched take on late 80's/early 90's Vertigo to me, which is a shame as Milligan was there in that time.

Horses for courses of course, but you do raise an important question: why not just Nettie instead of this new character which in no way feels too original.

Can I be a Brit that disagrees with a disagreeing Brit then?

I don't really mind that you disagree, 'cos it doesn't really matter if we have different opinions. We're allowed I like the character and the idea behind it makes sense to me, under the construct of: private schoolgirl dabbles in the occult at school and discovers she shares the same talent for voodoo that her ancestors did, her parents get *SQUEE* off at her slipping grades and, in a typical punk-rock way, she tells 'em to "p1ss orf" and makes her way to New Orleans so that she can explore and practice voodoo further, and becomes rather good at it.

On the note of this character not being "too original" though, surely it's inherently impossible for a more traditional Nettie character to be original also? Seeing as there have already been two previous incarnations of the character?

Funny how it hasn't occurred to anyone that this as-yet-unnamed voodoo mambo could actually be Nettie: Punk girls are known for wearing fishnets, are they not? Nettie wouldn't be an awfully difficult nickname to come by now, would it?

I am not sure re-imagining an existing character like Nettie is comparable to creating a new character that seems cliched in terms of originality; using Nettie by virtue of her history surely does not require it? Of course, if you are right, and you could well be, that this is a Nettie, I would cringe even more at that potential. But now you have planted the seed of doubt, and i really hope Milligan does not go there!

[erwinrafael]

why do we always have to compare the VEI characters to the VH1 characters? IMO, the more critically successful VEI books (A&A and Harbinger) are the ones that actually did their own thing and did not concern themselves too much with VH1.

[lorddunlow]

why do we always have to compare the VEI characters to the VH1 characters? IMO, the more critically successful VEI books (A&A and Harbinger) are the ones that actually did their own thing and did not concern themselves too much with VH1.

QFT

[jmatt]

why do we always have to compare the VEI characters to the VH1 characters?

Because that's what we know. Coke introduces New Coke and every person on the planet is gonna compare it with what came before.

[leonmallett]

why do we always have to compare the VEI characters to the VH1 characters?

Because that's what we know. Coke introduces New Coke and every person on the planet is gonna compare it with what came before.

The natural way of things.

[Shadowman99]

Although I'm more inclined towards Erwinrafael's line of thought, I think Jmatt has hit the nail on the head regarding the majority approach of most people on this forum: A great many people on these boards have read the previous runs of the various comics, and comparison to older material is simply a natural, knee-jerk reaction for most people that post here.

Having said that, I think that the degree to which this affects a person's enjoyment of a current comic is a matter of choice: A person could choose to compare and contrast heavily with previously published material in order to form an opinion on the quality of the comic, or they could choose to disregard the application of their knowledge of prior versions of the comic to the new one and form an opinion on what it is independently.

Leonmallet:

[Dallow Spicer1]

Really, really liking this revamp of Shadowman.

A lot of people have been complaining that the punk mambo is too odd a fit for the setting, but I thought she was really great. Valiant could have put Nettie in the comic, or a more 'typical' voodoo mambo, and I would have simply accepted the concept, but putting a character so radically different made it really interesting. I suppose a lot of you probably won't be able to relate to this, but as a native Brit the character fits the concept really well, and here's why: It's indisputably well known in England that kids get up to crazy 'extracurricular activites' in private boarding schools, and it's definitely been heard of that kids have dabbled in the occult to various degrees so; the idea of a private school girl that's perhaps struggled to perform academically and has discovered and prioritised other talents, and subsequently decided to move to a place where she can really concentrate on what she's good at, doesn't seem like too far a jump to me...

Time for another Brit to disagree; punk rock public school girl goes heavyweight mambo priestess - feels like a cliched take on late 80's/early 90's Vertigo to me, which is a shame as Milligan was there in that time.

Horses for courses of course, but you do raise an important question: why not just Nettie instead of this new character which in no way feels too original.

With hindsight, I think I can see both sides on this mini debate. On one hand, I'm glad Milligan has used an English punk as the mambo priestess, but, a public school girl punk is a tad cliche. Why couldn't she have been a working class punk from Skegness who used to work in a chippy? Now, you couldn't say THAT was cliched!

[Big Red]

Lessee... Jack wants the Loa out and the Loa wants out, but Punk Rock Mambo's not up to the job. Her look and backstory didn't exactly fit the dilapidated bayou cabin she inhabits but I guess I don't mind playing against type. But she's not old enough to be calling his Loa an "old rascal", that's something Nettie could get away with but it doesn't seem to fit her tenure.

Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one to feel this way.

It's the only thing that bothered me about the story.

I miss Nettie. A young, british, mohawked, punk mambo doesn't make sense to me. If not Nettie, then it should have at least been an older lady. This girl looked about 25. How much experience could she have had with the Loa, or any dark spirits? I hope that we never see her again.

[leonmallett]

Really, really liking this revamp of Shadowman.

A lot of people have been complaining that the punk mambo is too odd a fit for the setting, but I thought she was really great. Valiant could have put Nettie in the comic, or a more 'typical' voodoo mambo, and I would have simply accepted the concept, but putting a character so radically different made it really interesting. I suppose a lot of you probably won't be able to relate to this, but as a native Brit the character fits the concept really well, and here's why: It's indisputably well known in England that kids get up to crazy 'extracurricular activites' in private boarding schools, and it's definitely been heard of that kids have dabbled in the occult to various degrees so; the idea of a private school girl that's perhaps struggled to perform academically and has discovered and prioritised other talents, and subsequently decided to move to a place where she can really concentrate on what she's good at, doesn't seem like too far a jump to me...

Time for another Brit to disagree; punk rock public school girl goes heavyweight mambo priestess - feels like a cliched take on late 80's/early 90's Vertigo to me, which is a shame as Milligan was there in that time.

Horses for courses of course, but you do raise an important question: why not just Nettie instead of this new character which in no way feels too original.

With hindsight, I think I can see both sides on this mini debate. On one hand, I'm glad Milligan has used an English punk as the mambo priestess, but, a public school girl punk is a tad cliche. Why couldn't she have been a working class punk from Skegness who used to work in a chippy? Now, you couldn't say THAT was cliched!