Killing Off a Character
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- ian_house
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Most of DC's late 80s early 90s replacements don't have real lasting power. They were "cool" for that time period but now seem a little silly.
I've always much preferred Barry, Hal and Ollie that the new "cool" guys.
Someone said they loved Kyle back in 93, but do those stories really stand the test of time? Or just seem like bad, over stylised "cool" 90s comics now?
I'm with sanman in the fact that I'm really enjoying the retro feel of the DCU at the mo.
And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
I've always much preferred Barry, Hal and Ollie that the new "cool" guys.
Someone said they loved Kyle back in 93, but do those stories really stand the test of time? Or just seem like bad, over stylised "cool" 90s comics now?
I'm with sanman in the fact that I'm really enjoying the retro feel of the DCU at the mo.
And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
- xodacia81
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I see.sanman wrote:I'm from Louisiana, but no--too whitexodacia81 wrote:Does that make you a member of the "dirty" South?sanman wrote:Nope, didn’t take many baths when I was an undergrad frat boyxodacia81 wrote:Ohoh. Never took a shower with him, did you?sanman wrote:I had a frat brother nicknamed Soapy...
- Chiclo
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What a twist!ian_house wrote:And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
I don't expect a twist ending but I do appreciate it when there's a fresh approach or a new story applied on such a large scale on so complex a mythos as the Marvel or DC universes. Dark Reign is the most different thing either company has done in the last decade, maybe two.
Really, is it a must read?Chiclo wrote:What a twist!ian_house wrote:And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
I don't expect a twist ending but I do appreciate it when there's a fresh approach or a new story applied on such a large scale on so complex a mythos as the Marvel or DC universes. Dark Reign is the most different thing either company has done in the last decade, maybe two.
- Drift
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The concept is slightly different but on a book by book basis there is too much of the same thing going on.Chiclo wrote:What a twist!ian_house wrote:And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
I don't expect a twist ending but I do appreciate it when there's a fresh approach or a new story applied on such a large scale on so complex a mythos as the Marvel or DC universes. Dark Reign is the most different thing either company has done in the last decade, maybe two.
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I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives for years, I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.sanman wrote:I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation. Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a Green Lantern, now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.
Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.
I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
- xodacia81
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I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.Cyberstrike wrote:I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.sanman wrote:I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.
I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.
Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.
I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
- Cyberstrike
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No kidding. If DC and Marvel wants to keep publishing super-hero comics then they need to appeal to younger readers and quite honestly appealing to silver age fans is not going to help matters.xodacia81 wrote:I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.Cyberstrike wrote:I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.sanman wrote:I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.
I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.
Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.
I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
- xodacia81
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Cyberstrike wrote:No kidding. If DC and Marvel wants to keep publishing super-hero comics then they need to appeal to younger readers and quite honestly appealing to silver age fans is not going to help matters.xodacia81 wrote:I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.Cyberstrike wrote:I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.sanman wrote:I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.
I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.
Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.
I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.

- dhudson1
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I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.
What is imprtatn is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
What is imprtatn is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
You raise some excellent points—I’m 33 so I know where you are coming from. When I was younger I sporadically read comics whenever I could buy them off of spinner racks. However when I got to high school my town got its first real LCS and for the first time I could count on reading comics consecutively from month to month. And at a buck or so, combined with a 20% folder discount, I could easily pick up several titles a month.Cyberstrike wrote:No kidding. If DC and Marvel wants to keep publishing super-hero comics then they need to appeal to younger readers and quite honestly appealing to silver age fans is not going to help matters.xodacia81 wrote:I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.Cyberstrike wrote:I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.sanman wrote:I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.
I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.
Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.
I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
However, when the ‘90s bubble burst I nearly quit buying current books altogether. For the next few years I started collecting vintage comics almost exclusively and found the stories more compelling with illustrations better executed.
Perhaps I’ve become a bit of a ‘90s snob and I need to revisit this decade. Do you have some main-line DC and/or Marvel runs in mind that you feel have held up well? Truthfully, the only one that comes to mind is McFarlane’s Spider-Man run.
- dave
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and you don't have to kill anyone off either for effect-dhudson1 wrote:I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.
What is important is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
You could always revamp the costume.

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I don't disagree with that theory, but I always loathed Barry Allen and Hal Jordan. I prefer Wally as Flash and Alan Scott as GL.dhudson1 wrote:I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.
What is imprtatn is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
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I agree wholeheartedly that Alan Scott is the better GL. The wife and I settled on the first and middle names of Allen Scott for our firstbourne son (not expecting, just idle chat). Allen, particularly that spelling, is a family name.BloodOfHeroes wrote:I don't disagree with that theory, but I always loathed Barry Allen and Hal Jordan. I prefer Wally as Flash and Alan Scott as GL.dhudson1 wrote:I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.
What is imprtatn is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
The second son's name is the best Flash - Jay Garrick.
- BloodOfHeroes
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Sez the man who KNOWS his Green Lanterns.Chiclo wrote:I agree wholeheartedly that Alan Scott is the better GL. The wife and I settled on the first and middle names of Allen Scott for our firstbourne son (not expecting, just idle chat). Allen, particularly that spelling, is a family name.
The second son's name is the best Flash - Jay Garrick.

Jay's pretty cool, I'd agree. Way cooler than Barry.
Re: Killing Off a Character
Its already been done for us, just not the why and how details:ian_house wrote:Killing off a major character is all the rage these days (just like yoyos). Cap's gone, Bats has gone... so who from the Valiant Universe would you dramatically kill off for the big sales of death and reborn books?
Would you do it differently?
Ax killing Bloodshot and taking the Blood of Heroes.
Make the first major crossover the killing off Bloodshot (Michael Lazarus). No resaon that Ax cant kill Bloodshot in the Unity Land, right?
Afterwards, if VEI wants to keep Blooshot around, come up with a story that allows for the creation of a new Bloodshot (lots of ways to do this).
Kinda mirrors what Shooter did with pre-Unity Rai. So a nice parallel, yes?
Re: Killing Off a Character
interstingyardstick wrote:Its already been done for us, just not the why and how details:ian_house wrote:Killing off a major character is all the rage these days (just like yoyos). Cap's gone, Bats has gone... so who from the Valiant Universe would you dramatically kill off for the big sales of death and reborn books?
Would you do it differently?
Ax killing Bloodshot and taking the Blood of Heroes.
Make the first major crossover the killing off Bloodshot (Michael Lazarus). No resaon that Ax cant kill Bloodshot in the Unity Land, right?
Afterwards, if VEI wants to keep Blooshot around, come up with a story that allows for the creation of a new Bloodshot (lots of ways to do this).
Kinda mirrors what Shooter did with pre-Unity Rai. So a nice parallel, yes?
