Killing Off a Character

Discuss the VALIANT comics, characters, and collecting.
PLEASE DO NOT REVEAL SPOILER INFORMATION IN YOUR TOPIC TITLE.

Moderators: Daniel Jackson, greg

User avatar
xodacia81
Here I am, happy as a clam
Here I am, happy as a clam
Posts: 18404
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:09 pm
Location: East of Chicago, West of New York

Post by xodacia81 »

sanman wrote:I had a frat brother nicknamed Soapy... :hm:
Ohoh. Never took a shower with him, did you? :twisted:

User avatar
ian_house
using a Welsh to American translator
using a Welsh to American translator
Posts: 5783
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:24 am
Location: Vietnam

Post by ian_house »

Most of DC's late 80s early 90s replacements don't have real lasting power. They were "cool" for that time period but now seem a little silly.

I've always much preferred Barry, Hal and Ollie that the new "cool" guys.

Someone said they loved Kyle back in 93, but do those stories really stand the test of time? Or just seem like bad, over stylised "cool" 90s comics now?

I'm with sanman in the fact that I'm really enjoying the retro feel of the DCU at the mo.

And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.

User avatar
sanman
I can feel the custom bug
I can feel the custom bug
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Hammond, LA

Post by sanman »

xodacia81 wrote:
sanman wrote:I had a frat brother nicknamed Soapy... :hm:
Ohoh. Never took a shower with him, did you? :twisted:
Nope, didn’t take many baths when I was an undergrad frat boy :P

User avatar
xodacia81
Here I am, happy as a clam
Here I am, happy as a clam
Posts: 18404
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:09 pm
Location: East of Chicago, West of New York

Post by xodacia81 »

sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
sanman wrote:I had a frat brother nicknamed Soapy... :hm:
Ohoh. Never took a shower with him, did you? :twisted:
Nope, didn’t take many baths when I was an undergrad frat boy :P
Does that make you a member of the "dirty" South?

User avatar
sanman
I can feel the custom bug
I can feel the custom bug
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Hammond, LA

Post by sanman »

xodacia81 wrote:
sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
sanman wrote:I had a frat brother nicknamed Soapy... :hm:
Ohoh. Never took a shower with him, did you? :twisted:
Nope, didn’t take many baths when I was an undergrad frat boy :P
Does that make you a member of the "dirty" South?
I'm from Louisiana, but no--too white :?

User avatar
xodacia81
Here I am, happy as a clam
Here I am, happy as a clam
Posts: 18404
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:09 pm
Location: East of Chicago, West of New York

Post by xodacia81 »

sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
sanman wrote:I had a frat brother nicknamed Soapy... :hm:
Ohoh. Never took a shower with him, did you? :twisted:
Nope, didn’t take many baths when I was an undergrad frat boy :P
Does that make you a member of the "dirty" South?
I'm from Louisiana, but no--too white :?
I see.

User avatar
sanman
I can feel the custom bug
I can feel the custom bug
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Hammond, LA

Post by sanman »

ian_house wrote: Someone said they loved Kyle back in 93, but do those stories really stand the test of time? Or just seem like bad, over stylised "cool" 90s comics now?
There’s a reason why I remain a pre-Unity fan...

User avatar
xodacia81
Here I am, happy as a clam
Here I am, happy as a clam
Posts: 18404
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:09 pm
Location: East of Chicago, West of New York

Post by xodacia81 »

sanman wrote:
ian_house wrote: Someone said they loved Kyle back in 93, but do those stories really stand the test of time? Or just seem like bad, over stylised "cool" 90s comics now?
There’s a reason why I remain a pre-Unity fan...
Pre-Unity=THE BEST of Valiant :clap:

User avatar
Chiclo
I'm Chiclo. My strong Dongs paid off well.
I'm Chiclo.  My strong Dongs paid off well.
Posts: 22021
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:09 am
Favorite character: Kris
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Chiclo »

ian_house wrote:And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
What a twist!

I don't expect a twist ending but I do appreciate it when there's a fresh approach or a new story applied on such a large scale on so complex a mythos as the Marvel or DC universes. Dark Reign is the most different thing either company has done in the last decade, maybe two.

User avatar
sanman
I can feel the custom bug
I can feel the custom bug
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Hammond, LA

Post by sanman »

Chiclo wrote:
ian_house wrote:And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
What a twist!

I don't expect a twist ending but I do appreciate it when there's a fresh approach or a new story applied on such a large scale on so complex a mythos as the Marvel or DC universes. Dark Reign is the most different thing either company has done in the last decade, maybe two.
Really, is it a must read?

User avatar
Drift
...and I am a Valiantoholic.
...and I am a Valiantoholic.
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:08 am
Location: Chasing my dreams inside my toybox

Post by Drift »

Chiclo wrote:
ian_house wrote:And Chiclo not everything has to be a twist ending like an M Night Shyamalan film. Marvel could learn something from that.
What a twist!

I don't expect a twist ending but I do appreciate it when there's a fresh approach or a new story applied on such a large scale on so complex a mythos as the Marvel or DC universes. Dark Reign is the most different thing either company has done in the last decade, maybe two.
The concept is slightly different but on a book by book basis there is too much of the same thing going on.

User avatar
Cyberstrike
Consider it mine!
Consider it mine!
Posts: 5226
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:07 am
Valiant fan since: Unity 1992
Favorite character: Solar, Man of the Atom
Favorite title: Unity
Favorite writer: Jim Starlin
Favorite artist: Jim Starlin
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Contact:

Post by Cyberstrike »

sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.

During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives for years, I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.

Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation. Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a Green Lantern, now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.

Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.

I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.

User avatar
xodacia81
Here I am, happy as a clam
Here I am, happy as a clam
Posts: 18404
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:09 pm
Location: East of Chicago, West of New York

Post by xodacia81 »

Cyberstrike wrote:
sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.

During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.

Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.

I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.

Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.

I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.

User avatar
Cyberstrike
Consider it mine!
Consider it mine!
Posts: 5226
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:07 am
Valiant fan since: Unity 1992
Favorite character: Solar, Man of the Atom
Favorite title: Unity
Favorite writer: Jim Starlin
Favorite artist: Jim Starlin
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
Contact:

Post by Cyberstrike »

xodacia81 wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:
sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.

During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.

Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.

I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.

Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.

I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.
No kidding. If DC and Marvel wants to keep publishing super-hero comics then they need to appeal to younger readers and quite honestly appealing to silver age fans is not going to help matters.

User avatar
xodacia81
Here I am, happy as a clam
Here I am, happy as a clam
Posts: 18404
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:09 pm
Location: East of Chicago, West of New York

Post by xodacia81 »

Cyberstrike wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:
sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.

During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.

Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.

I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.

Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.

I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.
No kidding. If DC and Marvel wants to keep publishing super-hero comics then they need to appeal to younger readers and quite honestly appealing to silver age fans is not going to help matters.
:thumb:

User avatar
dhudson1
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Rockin' out in Torquehalla
Posts: 2050
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:08 pm
Valiant fan since: 1991
Favorite character: X-O
Favorite title: duh, X-O
Favorite writer: ditti
Favorite artist: all of them
Location: From Ohio, to Virginia, Illinois and back

Post by dhudson1 »

I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.

What is imprtatn is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.

User avatar
sanman
I can feel the custom bug
I can feel the custom bug
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Hammond, LA

Post by sanman »

Cyberstrike wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
Cyberstrike wrote:
sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote: That is because Johns and the majority of the current "writers" at both Marvel and DC are nothing but slovenly, half hack fanboys trying to recapture the 60's and 70's.
I can see where many would feel this way. However, I’m enjoying the retro-ness of the today’s DCU. I recognize that it probably alienates certain fans, but when I didn’t recognize anything familiar I stopped reading current comics for several years.

During that time I mostly picked up back issues. And actually it was Rebirth that got me back into picking up other titles again besides Batman and Detective.
I'm 32 and started reading comics in 90s and so yeah I admit that Kyle was my GL but after trying to read Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes HC and the first five Justice League of America archives I finally give up with them because they bored the hell out of me and weren't all they cracked up to be especially Green Lantern/Green Arrow: Hard Traveling Heroes which was just painful to read.

Hal Jordan sucks the fun out of Green Lantern comics fun for me, he's a dull as a dirt character that I never gave a damn about as a GL. Now as The Spectre he was a great complex 3-Dimensional character, even though some of his stories were weird. Characters like Hawke and Rayner are characters created for my generation.

I don't like Hal Jordan as a Green Lantern and it looks like I never will.

Oliver Queen could be Green Arrow, or it could be Connor Hawke either one could be either one of them.

I have to agree with Mark Waid that Barry Allen's death made essentially made him the patron saint of the DCU and it made his death in Crisis on Infinite Earths meant something.
I think the whole thing with deaths and coming back from the dead, especially in the DCU, started with Zero Hour. (The return of Superman was a whole other matter.) They used that to begin to undo the work done in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, they've brought it all back. Once again, sales are down, confusion is high amongst the general public, it is difficult to "get on board" and only the silver and bronze age fanboys are happy. Barry Allen's death DID mean something and it was beyond just the character passing away. The current crew at DC have not done that legacy many favor, imo.
No kidding. If DC and Marvel wants to keep publishing super-hero comics then they need to appeal to younger readers and quite honestly appealing to silver age fans is not going to help matters.
You raise some excellent points—I’m 33 so I know where you are coming from. When I was younger I sporadically read comics whenever I could buy them off of spinner racks. However when I got to high school my town got its first real LCS and for the first time I could count on reading comics consecutively from month to month. And at a buck or so, combined with a 20% folder discount, I could easily pick up several titles a month.

However, when the ‘90s bubble burst I nearly quit buying current books altogether. For the next few years I started collecting vintage comics almost exclusively and found the stories more compelling with illustrations better executed.

Perhaps I’ve become a bit of a ‘90s snob and I need to revisit this decade. Do you have some main-line DC and/or Marvel runs in mind that you feel have held up well? Truthfully, the only one that comes to mind is McFarlane’s Spider-Man run.

User avatar
Zaphod
Zaphod's just this guy, you know?
Zaphod's just this guy, you know?
Posts: 2582
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:11 pm
Valiant fan since: 1992
Favorite character: VH1 - Armstrong
Favorite title: VEI - Harbinger
Favorite writer: Joshua Dysart
Location: BC Canada

Post by Zaphod »

Drift wrote:I am sure that if VEI are still around in 50 years...
will they have any updates on their attempts to release monthly pamphlets by then?

User avatar
dave
Turok #12 is the 1st appearance of Turok
Turok #12 is the 1st appearance of Turok
Posts: 8233
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:06 pm
Valiant fan since: Bloodshot #1
Favorite character: Rai
Favorite title: Harbinger
Favorite writer: BWS
Location: Hiding in the fetal position

Post by dave »

hulk181man wrote:
JCVaughn wrote:
dhudson1 wrote:Used to be able to say at Marvel, nobody stays dead except for Bucky, now we can't even say that.
Actually, it used to be Bucky and Uncle Ben. Now it's just Uncle Ben and his darn rice.
Gwen Stacy :?
she's been back as well.

User avatar
dave
Turok #12 is the 1st appearance of Turok
Turok #12 is the 1st appearance of Turok
Posts: 8233
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:06 pm
Valiant fan since: Bloodshot #1
Favorite character: Rai
Favorite title: Harbinger
Favorite writer: BWS
Location: Hiding in the fetal position

Post by dave »

dhudson1 wrote:I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.

What is important is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
and you don't have to kill anyone off either for effect-

You could always revamp the costume.

:P

User avatar
BloodOfHeroes
We clutch at lies 'n pray they’re truths
We clutch at lies 'n pray they’re truths
Posts: 4657
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:14 pm
Favorite character: Bloodshot
Favorite title: Bloodshot
Favorite writer: Kevin VanHook
Favorite artist: Sean Chen
Location: FLA

Post by BloodOfHeroes »

dhudson1 wrote:I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.

What is imprtatn is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
I don't disagree with that theory, but I always loathed Barry Allen and Hal Jordan. I prefer Wally as Flash and Alan Scott as GL.

User avatar
Chiclo
I'm Chiclo. My strong Dongs paid off well.
I'm Chiclo.  My strong Dongs paid off well.
Posts: 22021
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:09 am
Favorite character: Kris
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Chiclo »

BloodOfHeroes wrote:
dhudson1 wrote:I don't think it has as much to do with who is GL or who is The Flash, or who is Green Arrow. All of these characters only have the personality that the writer gives them.

What is imprtatn is to tell great stories with the character. A great Flash story is a great Flash story, whether it is Jay, Barry or Wally.
I don't disagree with that theory, but I always loathed Barry Allen and Hal Jordan. I prefer Wally as Flash and Alan Scott as GL.
I agree wholeheartedly that Alan Scott is the better GL. The wife and I settled on the first and middle names of Allen Scott for our firstbourne son (not expecting, just idle chat). Allen, particularly that spelling, is a family name.

The second son's name is the best Flash - Jay Garrick.

User avatar
BloodOfHeroes
We clutch at lies 'n pray they’re truths
We clutch at lies 'n pray they’re truths
Posts: 4657
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:14 pm
Favorite character: Bloodshot
Favorite title: Bloodshot
Favorite writer: Kevin VanHook
Favorite artist: Sean Chen
Location: FLA

Post by BloodOfHeroes »

Chiclo wrote:I agree wholeheartedly that Alan Scott is the better GL. The wife and I settled on the first and middle names of Allen Scott for our firstbourne son (not expecting, just idle chat). Allen, particularly that spelling, is a family name.

The second son's name is the best Flash - Jay Garrick.
Sez the man who KNOWS his Green Lanterns. :thumb:

Jay's pretty cool, I'd agree. Way cooler than Barry.

User avatar
yardstick
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Just jumpin' through time arcs, that's all.
Posts: 1780
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:49 am
Re: Killing Off a Character

Post by yardstick »

ian_house wrote:Killing off a major character is all the rage these days (just like yoyos :lol: ). Cap's gone, Bats has gone... so who from the Valiant Universe would you dramatically kill off for the big sales of death and reborn books?

Would you do it differently?
Its already been done for us, just not the why and how details:

Ax killing Bloodshot and taking the Blood of Heroes.

Make the first major crossover the killing off Bloodshot (Michael Lazarus). No resaon that Ax cant kill Bloodshot in the Unity Land, right?

Afterwards, if VEI wants to keep Blooshot around, come up with a story that allows for the creation of a new Bloodshot (lots of ways to do this).

Kinda mirrors what Shooter did with pre-Unity Rai. So a nice parallel, yes?

User avatar
sanman
I can feel the custom bug
I can feel the custom bug
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:00 pm
Location: Hammond, LA
Re: Killing Off a Character

Post by sanman »

yardstick wrote:
ian_house wrote:Killing off a major character is all the rage these days (just like yoyos :lol: ). Cap's gone, Bats has gone... so who from the Valiant Universe would you dramatically kill off for the big sales of death and reborn books?

Would you do it differently?
Its already been done for us, just not the why and how details:

Ax killing Bloodshot and taking the Blood of Heroes.

Make the first major crossover the killing off Bloodshot (Michael Lazarus). No resaon that Ax cant kill Bloodshot in the Unity Land, right?

Afterwards, if VEI wants to keep Blooshot around, come up with a story that allows for the creation of a new Bloodshot (lots of ways to do this).

Kinda mirrors what Shooter did with pre-Unity Rai. So a nice parallel, yes?
intersting :hm:


Post Reply