Virgin Comics

[Chiclo]

And if they wanted to keep making Valiant comics, they have to sell Valiant comics which would involve putting them in the hands of people that wouldn't otherwise get them.

Like fans of Marvel and DC comics!

It is Fabian! Spewing the same *SQUEE* you were 10 years ago, huh?

Hey! I've got a great idea to re-imagine pre-Crisis Dr. Mirage!

Want to hear it?

[ManofTheAtom]

And if they wanted to keep making Valiant comics, they have to sell Valiant comics which would involve putting them in the hands of people that wouldn't otherwise get them.

Like fans of Marvel and DC comics!

dude, I either love you or hate you right now. The fact that I am not sure, should concern me.

MOTA: It has nothing to do with retailers knowing it is a new ownership group. It has to do with the fans and their reaction to a Valiant return. If the fans buy it, more retailers will stock it. Most will be be hesitant to stock Valiant because the word left a bad taste in alot of peoples mouth.

(this is going to show up in the quote thread, I know it)

now stop preaching to the converted and go out there and ask retailers.

Actually, it was a lot to do with retailers.

If they don't order it, then readers won't get them

Haven't you paid attention to the times that people on this board have said that their LCS won't order VALIANT for them or the store?

[ManofTheAtom]

And if they wanted to keep making Valiant comics, they have to sell Valiant comics which would involve putting them in the hands of people that wouldn't otherwise get them.

Like fans of Marvel and DC comics!

It is Fabian! Spewing the same *SQUEE* you were 10 years ago, huh?

Hey! I've got a great idea to re-imagine pre-Crisis Dr. Mirage!

Want to hear it?

pre-Crisis?

Geez, you can't even hide it...

[Chiclo]

Yes, let's call VHONE "pre-Crisis"!

It's brilliant!

Which would make X-O Manowar/Iron Man the "Crisis".

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, let's call VHONE "pre-Crisis"!

It's brilliant!

Which would make X-O Manowar/Iron Man the "Crisis".

I thought it was toilet paper.

[Zaphod]

And if they wanted to keep making Valiant comics, they have to sell Valiant comics which would involve putting them in the hands of people that wouldn't otherwise get them.

Like fans of Marvel and DC comics!

dude, I either love you or hate you right now. The fact that I am not sure, should concern me.

MOTA: It has nothing to do with retailers knowing it is a new ownership group. It has to do with the fans and their reaction to a Valiant return. If the fans buy it, more retailers will stock it. Most will be be hesitant to stock Valiant because the word left a bad taste in alot of peoples mouth.

(this is going to show up in the quote thread, I know it)

now stop preaching to the converted and go out there and ask retailers.

Actually, it was a lot to do with retailers.

If they don't order it, then readers won't get them

Haven't you paid attention to the times that people on this board have said that their LCS won't order VALIANT for them or the store?

then you should ask the retailers why?

How about an answer from you without further questions. What do you propose is the reason these retailers won't order Valiant comics for people who are coming in looking to buy them. What other business has people come in, looking to buy something that is in their field only to be told no. Finally what do you propose to do to fix the situation?

other than stating that VEI is a different company with a familiar brand and expect it to actually mean something.

[Chiclo]

Yes, let's call VHONE "pre-Crisis"!

It's brilliant!

Which would make X-O Manowar/Iron Man the "Crisis".

I thought it was toilet paper.

Nah, it's part of the VHONE reading set.

I guess you could say it's part of the VHTWO reading set too.

And Crisis was also the first big cross-over with a real comic book company, not like Dark Horse.

[ManofTheAtom]

And if they wanted to keep making Valiant comics, they have to sell Valiant comics which would involve putting them in the hands of people that wouldn't otherwise get them.

Like fans of Marvel and DC comics!

dude, I either love you or hate you right now. The fact that I am not sure, should concern me.

MOTA: It has nothing to do with retailers knowing it is a new ownership group. It has to do with the fans and their reaction to a Valiant return. If the fans buy it, more retailers will stock it. Most will be be hesitant to stock Valiant because the word left a bad taste in alot of peoples mouth.

(this is going to show up in the quote thread, I know it)

now stop preaching to the converted and go out there and ask retailers.

Actually, it was a lot to do with retailers.

If they don't order it, then readers won't get them

Haven't you paid attention to the times that people on this board have said that their LCS won't order VALIANT for them or the store?

then you should ask the retailers why?

How about an answer from you without further questions. What do you propose is the reason these retailers won't order Valiant comics for people who are coming in looking to buy them. What other business has people come in, looking to buy something that is in their field only to be told no. Finally what do you propose to do to fix the situation?

other than stating that VEI is a different company with a familiar brand and expect it to actually mean something.

It's neither my job nor my place to speak with retailers, that's what those meetings between publishers and retailers at conventions are for.

[ManofTheAtom]

Yes, let's call VHONE "pre-Crisis"!

It's brilliant!

Which would make X-O Manowar/Iron Man the "Crisis".

I thought it was toilet paper.

Nah, it's part of the VHONE reading set.

I guess you could say it's part of the VHTWO reading set too.

And Crisis was also the first big cross-over with a real comic book company, not like Dark Horse.

Is it?

Where does it fit in continuity?

It came out after XO 68, but it completely ignored everything that happened in it and in the previous 24 issues (from 44 to 68).

Crisis was a DC event that has no bearing on VALIANT whatsoever.

VALIANT had Unity, Fabian... but I don't suppose you'd know that.

[Zaphod]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

[ManofTheAtom]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

[Chiclo]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

[ManofTheAtom]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Identity in this case referring to VH 2 not having one and not knowing whether it was DC, Marvel, or Image.

[Chiclo]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Identity in this case referring to *Acclaim (1997 series)* not having one and not knowing whether it was DC, Marvel, or Image.

Now you are getting into it, MotA!

You are one of us.

[Zaphod]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers. You think Marvel would accept being Earth-2 even though they were around first?

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

[Zaphod]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Identity in this case referring to *Acclaim (1997 series)* not having one and not knowing whether it was DC, Marvel, or Image.

"One of Us"

[ManofTheAtom]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

It's already been proven that when VALIANT characters interact with Marvel characters and written like if they were DC characters the projects will fail.

There is no basis whatsoever for your suggestions that VEI producting comics for the competition will help them in any way.

[Zaphod]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

They don't have an audience. That is why they were cancelled, nobody was buying Valiant. It was outdated. Old school.

This is just keeping with the times, my good man.

[ManofTheAtom]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

They don't have an audience. That is why they were cancelled, nobody was buying Valiant. It was outdated. Old school.

This is just keeping with the times, my good man.

Actually, they were canceled because Chiclo thought that if they were more like DC and Marvel (which are in fact outdated and old school) they would sell more.

He was wrong 12 years ago and he's wrong today.

Making VALIANT more like DC and Marvel has never succeeded, it's always ended in failure.

[Zaphod]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

It's already been proven that when VALIANT characters interact with Marvel characters and written like if they were DC characters the projects will fail.

There is no basis whatsoever for your suggestions that VEI producting comics for the competition will help them in any way.

VH1 was failing. They were still millions in debt before H.A.R.D Corps #1, Turok #1 and Bloodshot #1 sold their near million units.

[ManofTheAtom]

I am still waiting on issues 3-6 of Crisis. I think Shooter was on to something.

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

It's already been proven that when VALIANT characters interact with Marvel characters and written like if they were DC characters the projects will fail.

There is no basis whatsoever for your suggestions that VEI producting comics for the competition will help them in any way.

*VALIANT (1991-1996)* was failing. They were still millions in debt before H.A.R.D Corps #1, Turok #1 and Bloodshot #1 sold their near million units.

In debt, really?

With whom?

Post links, quotes, that say that they were in debt.

Would you like me to look for those Shooter quotes where he says that they were making 2 million a month and the Layton quotes where he says that Triumph forced them to find a buyer?

Post yours first. Offer something to back up your allegation.

Not an opinion, but actual proof, be it online or transcribed from a print source.

[ManofTheAtom]

How about that quote from Layton in the Turok DVD where he says that Turok sold over one million copies?

It doesn't matter if retailers got stuck with them, the publisher still sold them.

[Zaphod]

So first XO/IM was Crisis and now U2K is Crisis (though that's more accurate).

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

They don't have an audience. That is why they were cancelled, nobody was buying Valiant. It was outdated. Old school.

This is just keeping with the times, my good man.

Actually, they were canceled because Chiclo thought that if they were more like DC and Marvel (which are in fact outdated and old school) they would sell more.

He was wrong 12 years ago and he's wrong today.

Making VALIANT more like DC and Marvel has never succeeded, it's always ended in failure.

"Even with all of its successes, Valiant would unbelievably still be in debt. "After Unity, the sales figures were still not enough to make up for the huge debt load we owed Triumph. The initial investment by Triumph was for only two million dollars. By Unity, we owed them over four million and they were not happy with us --not one bit," Layton recollected."

"After Unity was successful and really after H.A.R.D. Corps, we grew a bit," explains VanHook. "I brought on Cliff VanMeter, Darren Sanchez, Simon Erich, Jesse Berdinka, etc. I stopped being Production Manager in the fall of that year and started editing. By January, I was Executive Editor and Vice President. Many of our multi-talented colorists were also writers and editors. Maurice Fontenot and Jorge Gonzalez were prime examples. Most of our growth was in having multiple editors and an influx of creators as well as expanding our production department to do trading cards and special projects." H.A.R.D. Corps premiered to big numbers with the help of a beautiful Jim Lee gatefold cover.

"Shortly after Shooter departed," says Layton. "And our sales began to skyrocket, I recall sitting in a meeting with (Jon) Hartz and (Steve) Massarsky where we mutually agreed never to print over 500,000 copies of any of our titles. I harped on the fact that they numbers that Marvel was drawing on the X-Men were not reflective of the number of actual readers in the comics market. Of course, greed is a *SQUEE*. Eventually, the temptation became simply too great to resist and we started printing to speculator demands. That proved to have huge negative repercussions down the road."

http://www.sequart.com/columns/index.ph ... column=835

It wasn't until they were emulating Marvel & DC with inflated print runs that they started to profit. That is what I read from that. Many mitigating factors but the speculator boom may have been the biggest factor making Valiant profitable in the first place.

[ManofTheAtom]

U2K is one of those "other" crisis things.

Like Identity Crisis...

Nah, XO/IM is like when the Flash's got into a tussle and we got the JLA/JSA stuff. Though that would be cool. Harbinger vs The Avengers.

I mean, after all XO is pretty much a Marvel What If..."Conan got control of Iron Mans armor."

XO is like the silverage version of Tony Stark, if you really think about it. But I am totally psyched for Infinte Crisis, that would actually be a really neat way for VEI to reboot...go right into a big crossover like that with 4 miniseries and a year long weekly series to lead in.

So you want them to alienate their audience.

They don't have an audience. That is why they were cancelled, nobody was buying Valiant. It was outdated. Old school.

This is just keeping with the times, my good man.

Actually, they were canceled because Chiclo thought that if they were more like DC and Marvel (which are in fact outdated and old school) they would sell more.

He was wrong 12 years ago and he's wrong today.

Making VALIANT more like DC and Marvel has never succeeded, it's always ended in failure.

"Even with all of its successes, Valiant would unbelievably still be in debt. "After Unity, the sales figures were still not enough to make up for the huge debt load we owed Triumph. The initial investment by Triumph was for only two million dollars. By Unity, we owed them over four million and they were not happy with us --not one bit," Layton recollected."

"After Unity was successful and really after H.A.R.D. Corps, we grew a bit," explains VanHook. "I brought on Cliff VanMeter, Darren Sanchez, Simon Erich, Jesse Berdinka, etc. I stopped being Production Manager in the fall of that year and started editing. By January, I was Executive Editor and Vice President. Many of our multi-talented colorists were also writers and editors. Maurice Fontenot and Jorge Gonzalez were prime examples. Most of our growth was in having multiple editors and an influx of creators as well as expanding our production department to do trading cards and special projects." H.A.R.D. Corps premiered to big numbers with the help of a beautiful Jim Lee gatefold cover.

"Shortly after Shooter departed," says Layton. "And our sales began to skyrocket, I recall sitting in a meeting with (Jon) Hartz and (Steve) Massarsky where we mutually agreed never to print over 500,000 copies of any of our titles. I harped on the fact that they numbers that Marvel was drawing on the X-Men were not reflective of the number of actual readers in the comics market. Of course, greed is a *SQUEE*. Eventually, the temptation became simply too great to resist and we started printing to speculator demands. That proved to have huge negative repercussions down the road."

http://www.sequart.com/columns/index.ph ... column=835

It wasn't until they were emulating Marvel & DC with inflated print runs that they started to profit. That is what I read from that. Many mitigating factors but the speculator boom may have been the biggest factor making Valiant profitable in the first place.

Kudos on the quote... but you have also unveiled a THIRD occasion that VALIANT/Voyager imitated DC and Marvel that ended in "negative repercussions".

Why do you and Fabian/Chiclo want VEI to do the same?

[Zaphod]

How about that quote from Layton in the Turok DVD where he says that Turok sold over one million copies?

It doesn't matter if retailers got stuck with them, the publisher still sold them.

you couldn't be more wrong with this statement. If we are talking one time sales, yes.

An ongoing monthly won't keep selling like thati f the retailers can't move the product.

you need to relearn your economics, son.