What If Valiant HAD lowered it's prices?

[depluto]

WTH are you talking abouwt ? The stupid *SQUEE* HIGH prices of comics ARE driving kids away AND adults alike and NO kids CANNOT afford comics. IF a kid had $20 a month he wouldnt spend it on comics that are WAY too over priced. If a kid gets $20 a month, it is probably weekly @ $5. He goes to the comic shop and spends $2.99 on a comic (10-15 minutes of entertainment) and then he is assed out because he has a whole two bucks left over. Meaning he can buy two other things that week... diddly and squat. I cant tell you how many times I see adults putting comics BACK onto the shelf because of the high price. Classic example Avengers/Justice League crossober... $3.99 a freakin' pop and SIX issues to go... for the same old story. NOT worth the $25 bucks.

Yer right Knight (although kids might get more than 15 minutes out of a comic ... when I was a kid I would reread the thing a few times, take it to school and try for a swap). Most comics today aren't one-shots, it takes five or six issues to tell every story. This is so they can make money again on the TPBs. Greedy as hell, isn't it?

So what's next? Maybe they'll combine lines into monthly TPBs, for example maybe all the Ultimate stuff or Marvel Knights stuff into a single monthly volume. But if the comics quit selling, they'll quit making them. That's what happened to Valiant, anyway.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I spend $75-100 a month on new comics. It's worth it to me. I enjoy it. That's the only point that matters.

What's not to get?

Since you ask....the point is...AGAIN....the VALUE you get for the money you spend. I wasn't actually commenting on your 'getting a better job'; because that wasn't...again...the point.

If YOU think you get value equivalent to the price it costs...great.

Most people who would consider buying them simply do not.

Hey, wanna run a poll, just amongst VC.com people?

Again...has nothing to do with ndividuals who think they get their money's worth. It has to do with the majority of people who don't. You're thinking ONLY of yourself, and not the industry as a whole. You're right, that's the only point that matters...to YOU...and IF you were the deciding factor in the entire comics industry, great, no problem! But you're not....it's the community as a WHOLE that determines what is published and what is not, and right now...there's a whole lot of 'not' going around.

Or do you really think Sales Figures lie? The QUALITY is certainly there to be found, no one disputes that. Soooo...why is it a struggle to sell 50,000 copies of a solid book like, say, Fables?

Ah yes....the PRICE.

[lobo]

Again, dunno why you don't get that.

Zephyr, you seem to have a real problem with my dry sense of humor.

I totally understand what you are arguing about and don't tell me 'I don't get it'. You can sometimes make good arguements, but I don't think you know how to step back and look at things from the other guys point of view. This is why its so easy to wind you up and watch you go.

You don't like the prices of new releases- fine. I'm certainly not defending current pricing but you seem definitely offended when I proclaim that I'm going to go ahead and blow my money on new releases no matter what. It must truely urk you to hear this but you cannot convince me to change my buying habits. Whether the price is $1.50 or $3.50 I don't care, I'll buy what interests me. There is an element of the comic buying population that thinks this way, can you wrap your head around that concept? If so, are you able to not freak out about it?

'Get a better job to buy comics'. That was clearly tongue in cheek, so I'll now let you now chuckle along with the rest of us.

[depluto]

you ask....the point is...AGAIN....the VALUE you get for the money you spend. I wasn't actually commenting on your 'getting a better job'; because that wasn't...again...the point.

Value means different things to different people. I took my family out to dinner the other night, it cost me $80. I could have bought the ingredients and enjoyed cooking it up myself for $20-30. Going out wasn't a good value, but we still had a good time. And I'm not rich, $80 is still a chunk to me.

Hey, wanna run a poll, just amongst VC.com people?

I'd vote that comic prices suck. Does the industry take advantage of people like me? Sure, I'll keep buying Spidey till they quit making them. I get four different every month. It's a nice thing for me, something I've done since I was a kid. And they're pretty damn good comics, still.

Again...has nothing to do with ndividuals who think they get their money's worth. It has to do with the majority of people who don't. You're thinking ONLY of yourself, and not the industry as a whole. You're right, that's the only point that matters...to YOU...and IF you were the deciding factor in the entire comics industry, great, no problem! But you're not....it's the community as a WHOLE that determines what is published and what is not, and right now...there's a whole lot of 'not' going around.

Or do you really think Sales Figures lie? The QUALITY is certainly there to be found, no one disputes that. Soooo...why is it a struggle to sell 50,000 copies of a solid book like, say, Fables?

Ah yes....the PRICE.

Among other things, but the price is certainly the mose significant factor. Comics survived for years because the fan base was reenergized with new kids every year. That's worked in reverse for more than a decade, I believe, and the average age of the reader has risen. I'd say it's harder to get into comics as an adult if you never read them as a kid, yet a lot of new comics are clearly made for adult readers. And priced for the same.

There's some Marvel Age crap that's made for kids, and some DC stuff along with Sonic, Archie and the rest. But the fan base is contracting, and the kids are ignoring this stuff.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Again, dunno why you don't get that.

Zephyr, you seem to have a real problem with my dry sense of humor.

I totally understand what you are arguing about and don't tell me 'I don't get it'. You can sometimes make good arguements, but I don't think you know how to step back and look at things from the other guys point of view. This is why its so easy to wind you up and watch you go.

You don't like the prices of new releases- fine. I'm certainly not defending current pricing but you seem definitely offended when I proclaim that I'm going to go ahead and blow my money on new releases no matter what. It must truely urk you to hear this but you cannot convince me to change my buying habits. Whether the price is $1.50 or $3.50 I don't care, I'll buy what interests me. There is an element of the comic buying population that thinks this way, can you wrap your head around that concept? If so, are you able to not freak out about it?

'Get a better job to buy comics'. That was clearly tongue in cheek, so I'll now let you now chuckle along with the rest of us.

Lobo, why the personal attacks? Why the insults? What purpose do they serve? This is a discussion, not a 'let's see how much of a jerk I can be to the other guy', unless I'm mistaken....

What you do with your money doesn't Irk me in the slightest. I could not care less what you buy, or why you buy it. Pay attention to that, because that's the crux of your third paragraph up there: I DON'T CARE what INDIVIDUALS decide to do with THEIR money. It's THEIR decision (what was that you were saying about 'not seeing the other guy's point of view....? Something about 'winding me up and watching me go'...?) You can do WHATEVER YOU LIKE with YOUR money. I don't CARE. Offended? Not in the slightest.

The problem here is that's NOT the POINT. I SAY you don't get it, because you are CLEARLY not getting it at the moment. It's not about YOU and what YOU do with YOUR money. (There...have I 'seen the other guy's point of view' enough to convince you yet?) You STILL don't seem to understand that. It's not about you, it's not about ME, it's not about ANY INDIVIDUAL. It's about ALL the people who buy or WOULD buy comics, but have issues with the price, TOGETHER. ALL of us. Not you. Not me. ALL of us. And when you argue that there's 'no problem with current pricing' WITHOUT qualifying it with a 'for me', then you clearly aren't getting it, because there is a MAJOR PROBLEM.

It's simple.

Too many people (plural) have a problem with the prices of new comics, and it's affecting what gets published and how many copies of it are printed. End of story.

So lighten up, try to understand what I'm saying, and let's not get hostile....shall we? I'm simply discussing the pros, cons, and wherefores of the current priciing structure of comics, not making personal attacks.

So I'll ignore the personal attacks you've just made, k?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Value means different things to different people. I took my family out to dinner the other night, it cost me $80. I could have bought the ingredients and enjoyed cooking it up myself for $20-30. Going out wasn't a good value, but we still had a good time. And I'm not rich, $80 is still a chunk to me.

That it does. And TOO many people have decided, through their pocketbooks, that the VALUE just isn't there for comics.

Not about what *you* think has value, because you obviously feel the value FOR YOU is there. Not about what *I* think has value, because obviously I feel the value FOR ME is not.

It's about what the VAST MAJORITY think has value, because they've voted, and they aren't buying comics.

Again...not about what ZWH or Depluto thinks has value or doesn't...it's the cold hard reality that FARRR fewer people think that comics today have as much value as they did in yesteryear.

Otherwise, quality books like Fables, Transmetropolian, etc etc etc, would do what Valiant did in the early 90's...go from 10's of thousands, to hundreds of thousands of copies printed....because there was an audience out there who wanted them.

And it just ain't happening now.

... and the kids are ignoring this stuff.

That they are.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Here's one final example, then I'll go to bed.

I just finished, as of about an hour and a half ago, reading 1602. I REALLY enjoyed it, but then, I'm a Gaiman fan, and love everything he writes.

I understand a lot of folks didn't like it, and their expectations weren't met. Fine.

Ok, so I paid $10 for the entire thing. $10. Total. Total cover price? $28.49.

Why? Pretty paper, pretty cover stock? I would have enjoyed the story JUST AS MUCH had it been printed on plain ol' newsprint! The story was the story, and the art would have looked just as fine.

But Marvel LOST a sale to an ADDITIONAL reader (me) because they jacked the price to $3.50 for the first 7, and $3.99 for #8!

Tell me....is it better to sell ONE copy for $15 or TEN copies for $1.50? 10, of course, for a whole HOST of reasons.

Those books could have been printed on newsprint and sold for $1.50 each. I would have GLADLY paid $10 (and did!) for them. In fact, I would have paid $12 for them, had they been at $1.50. But they were more than double that.

And Marvel lost an additional sale.

DUMB economics, folks.

[depluto]

That it does. And TOO many people have decided, through their pocketbooks, that the VALUE just isn't there for comics.

But there are still thousands more who do buy these things. We buy them because we can, and because we don't really have a choice. It's like with new homes. In Florida, the price of a home has doubled, then doubled again, and sometimes again in a number of neighborhoods. And people are still buying the damn things.

Let me look rephrase your quote a bit ... and before I do, let me say that I agree with you on just about everything you say here.

"TOO many people have decided, through their pocketbooks, that the VALUE is there for comics."

See, it's people like me keeping the prices up, right (it is about me, since I'm representative of a group here)? That's what the beancounters figured out. If you charge twice as much for the same product, you have to sell fewer than half as many to make the same profit.

But what should I do? Ignore my favorite hobby? Everything costs more these days ... Disney World, comic books, bicycles, Krystal burgers.

Otherwise, quality books like Fables, Transmetropolian, etc etc etc, would do what Valiant did in the early 90's...go from 10's of thousands, to hundreds of thousands of copies printed....because there was an audience out there who wanted them.

I also think this goes back to the dwindling fan base. Kids aren't being brought in as new readers, who then mature into adults and enjoy the Vertigo stuff. And adults tend not to enter the comic-buying group unless they did it as a kid. So the base of people who read these type of comics will steadily decrease as we go on.

Comic collectors, now that's something else.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

But there are still thousands more who do buy these things. We buy them because we can, and because we don't really have a choice. It's like with new homes. In Florida, the price of a home has doubled, then doubled again, and sometimes again in a number of neighborhoods. And people are still buying the damn things.

You're not SERIOUSLY comparing comics (a non-essential) to a house (an essential) are you?

I'm not arguing with you that there are thousands of people who still buy comics. That's proven in the numbers. But there are HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people who live in America, and the percentage of those people buying comics is almost NEGLIGIBLE. And you DO have a choice...you can wait 6 months until they're quarter, 50 cent, or dollar bin books....or you can write the publishers and complain about the price...or you can not buy them althogether.

If you're a slave to comics....well, that's a whole other Oprah.

Let me look rephrase your quote a bit ... and before I do, let me say that I agree with you on just about everything you say here.

"TOO many people have decided, through their pocketbooks, that the VALUE is there for comics."

Wrong. If that were the case, these books would be selling numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A FEW people, when all the facts are considered, have decided that the value is there. A TINY FRACTION. The simple fact is, there is only a FRACTION of the number of people buying comics today as there were in, say, 1993. Or 1986. Or 1965. Or 1944. Average print runs throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY of COMICS have NEVER been as low as they have been in the last five years, and the only time they got close was in 1976-1978.

You just can't argue with the numbers, folks.

See, it's people like me keeping the prices up, right (it is about me, since I'm representative of a group here)? That's what the beancounters figured out. If you charge twice as much for the same product, you have to sell fewer than half as many to make the same profit.

But what should I do? Ignore my favorite hobby? Everything costs more these days ... Disney World, comic books, bicycles, Krystal burgers.

No one, least of all me, is suggesting that YOU HAVE TO boycott comics. It's not YOUR fault that comics are priced so high (well...it is in an infinitesimal way, but let's just call that a wash.) What I am suggesting is basic economics: if the PUBLISHERS want to sell more of what they are selling, they have to convince more people that the value....to all those people....is worth the price. 50,000 people who think the value is there just doesn't cut it. And that's a GOOD SELLING print run right now!

I also think this goes back to the dwindling fan base. Kids aren't being brought in as new readers, who then mature into adults and enjoy the Vertigo stuff. And adults tend not to enter the comic-buying group unless they did it as a kid. So the base of people who read these type of comics will steadily decrease as we go on.

Comic collectors, now that's something else.

All part of the cost. Kids don't get into them because they have no incentive too: they're certainly not cheap, nor are they a 'good value' as a majority of consumers (keep that in mind) have determine. When you have a kid who sees a cool Spiderman comic, then looks at the price and says '$3.50! What a ripoff!'...then you've identified the problem.

[Vault-Keeper]

Comic-Book companies like Marvel & DC are mere tax write-offs for the parent companies. They use their rosters of world known properties in other areas to make the real money. Comics will never be as popular has they used to be, regardless of price. Technology has made them a dinosaur, of sorts. The early 90's, for better or worse, was a sales peak that will never be achieved again, IMO.---Steve G

[depluto]

You're not SERIOUSLY comparing comics (a non-essential) to a house (an essential) are you?

Sure I was. If people can afford it, and they want it, they buy it. Do you think someone buys a $4 million house because they need it?

And you DO have a choice...you can wait 6 months until they're quarter, 50 cent, or dollar bin books....or you can write the publishers and complain about the price...or you can not buy them althogether.

Sure, but that won't help the industry.

If you're a slave to comics....well, that's a whole other Oprah.

The only thing I'm a slave to is my family's happiness.

Wrong. If that were the case, these books would be selling numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A FEW people, when all the facts are considered, have decided that the value is there. A TINY FRACTION. The simple fact is, there is only a FRACTION of the number of people buying comics today as there were in, say, 1993. Or 1986. Or 1965. Or 1944. Average print runs throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY of COMICS have NEVER been as low as they have been in the last five years, and the only time they got close was in 1976-1978.

You just can't argue with the numbers, folks.

Marvel is awash in money (I'm aware this is from their movie deals, toys and other licensing of their characters, but comics will remain part of what they do). And they're leading the way as far as raising prices. You can tell them they're stupid; they can't hear you behind all those piles of money.

Here's where we agree, ZWH. New comics are priced too high, and the publishers are being greedy here.

I'm just saying the publishers aren't going to change. If more people drop out, they'll raise prices some more. It will run the industry into the ground, sure, but that will take years, and by that time they will have to figure out a different way to deliver their product.

And I'll just roll with the changes.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Sure I was. If people can afford it, and they want it, they buy it. Do you think someone buys a $4 million house because they need it?

<laughs> you didn't SAY a $4 million house. Here we are again, comparing the prestige to the run of the mill, the Starbucks Venti Macchiati to a Denny's cup o' joe.

Sure, but that won't help the industry.

So you ARE doing it for charity purposes! Why didn't you say so? Not that they NEED charity, but at least I understand where you're coming from.

Oh, and forcing people to be competitive, lowering prices to sell more units....helps everyone in the long run. It's the foundation of capitalism. So yeah...it WOULD help.

Wrong. If that were the case, these books would be selling numbers in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A FEW people, when all the facts are considered, have decided that the value is there. A TINY FRACTION. The simple fact is, there is only a FRACTION of the number of people buying comics today as there were in, say, 1993. Or 1986. Or 1965. Or 1944. Average print runs throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY of COMICS have NEVER been as low as they have been in the last five years, and the only time they got close was in 1976-1978.

You just can't argue with the numbers, folks.

Marvel is awash in money (I'm aware this is from their movie deals, toys and other licensing of their characters, but comics will remain part of what they do). And they're leading the way as far as raising prices. You can tell them they're stupid; they can't hear you behind all those piles of money.

Marvel is awash in money from everything but comics. They can bleed money through their comics division all they want, but eventually, they'll have to fix it if they want it to continue...or it will die.

Here's where we agree, ZWH. New comics are priced too high, and the publishers are being greedy here.

I'm just saying the publishers aren't going to change. If more people drop out, they'll raise prices some more. It will run the industry into the ground, sure, but that will take years, and by that time they will have to figure out a different way to deliver their product.

And I'll just roll with the changes.

So you're saying 'there's nothing I can do, I want my new comics new, so I'll put up with anything they throw at me, even if comics prices going to spiral out of control'...right? Hey, man, more power to you. If that's what you like, by all means, go for it. Me....? I'll wait til they're 50 cents.

Of course it's a process. These things always are. But....it's not outside of the realm of possibility for some upstart to come along and shake up the status quo. Marvel did it. Valiant did it. So it CAN be done. You're right, if the publishers don't HAVE to compete to stay in business, they won't. And if that succeeds in running the industry into the ground...well, that's sad, but there's really nothing that anyone but the publishers can do about it.

But someone....somewhere....will come along and say 'this is ridiculous! We could be making MILLIONS, and instead we're LOSING money with these things? Here...let's do THIS.....'

[Vault-Keeper]

The comic-strip & comic-books have been a doomed medium since their inception. Once, a character becomes popular (whether it be Popeye, Blondie, or Superman), they are always licensed out or sold to generate larger profits in other mediums, besides comics. That's where the real money is.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Oh...and it's silly to use the words 'always' and 'never' with regards to the future. We don't know what is going to happen, and to make predictions that are anything but the broadest, most general sweeps is just plain silly.

We can say something is LIKELY to happen, or it's POSSIBLE, or it MAY....but not 'always' and/or 'never'.

Agreed?

[depluto]

The comic-strip & comic-books have been a doomed medium since their inception. Once, a character becomes popular (whether it be Popeye, Blondie, or Superman), they are always licensed out or sold to generate larger profits in other mediums, besides comics. That's where the real money is.

Exactly. They're making more money than they ever have.

[depluto]

So you ARE doing it for charity purposes! Why didn't you say so? Not that they NEED charity, but at least I understand where you're coming from.

Not what I said.

So you're saying 'there's nothing I can do, I want my new comics new, so I'll put up with anything they throw at me, even if comics prices going to spiral out of control'...right? Hey, man, more power to you. If that's what you like, by all means, go for it. Me....? I'll wait til they're 50 cents.

That's cool.

Of course it's a process. These things always are. But....it's not outside of the realm of possibility for some upstart to come along and shake up the status quo. Marvel did it. Valiant did it. So it CAN be done. You're right, if the publishers don't HAVE to compete to stay in business, they won't. And if that succeeds in running the industry into the ground...well, that's sad, but there's really nothing that anyone but the publishers can do about it.

I agree. It would be nice if something were done here. I think our only real difference here is that I'm saying it's not going to happen.

[x-omatic]

.....I like pizza....

[depluto]

.....I like pizza....

Fruit salad, yummy, yummy.

BTW, I've been on vacation for the last month. It's gonna be hard for me to post this much starting tomorrow (for all you people who were thinking "I wish depluto would shut the hell up!").

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I agree. It would be nice if something were done here. I think our only real difference here is that I'm saying it's not going to happen.

See above. If we all resign ourselves to 'this is the way it is, and nothing will ever change it'....then that's exactly what will happen.

[lobo]

Lobo, why the personal attacks? Why the insults? What purpose do they serve? This is a discussion, not a 'let's see how much of a jerk I can be to the other guy', unless I'm mistaken....

It takes a jerk to know one I guess. Your posts have such a condescending attitude to other posters sometimes, you better expect this kind of reaction. I am responding in kind, you have have not been above this kind of behavior, but I don't think you realize it. Has it ever occurred to you WHY you get into these situations with others on this board in so many past occasions?

What you do with your money doesn't Irk me in the slightest. I could not care less what you buy, or why you buy it. Pay attention to that, because that's the crux of your third paragraph up there: I DON'T CARE what INDIVIDUALS decide to do with THEIR money. It's THEIR decision (what was that you were saying about 'not seeing the other guy's point of view....? Something about 'winding me up and watching me go'...?) You can do WHATEVER YOU LIKE with YOUR money. I don't CARE. Offended? Not in the slightest.

If it does not bother you then quite accusing me of 'working for' or being 'Charitable' with the comic publishers. I have already acknowledged that comic prices are too high, but I'll continue to buy what I want. Don't try to demonize me for it. Its clear that some people support your view but some others feel like I do. I can recognize this and so can you.

The problem here is that's NOT the POINT. I SAY you don't get it, because you are CLEARLY not getting it at the moment. It's not about YOU and what YOU do with YOUR money. (There...have I 'seen the other guy's point of view' enough to convince you yet?) You STILL don't seem to understand that. It's not about you, it's not about ME, it's not about ANY INDIVIDUAL. It's about ALL the people who buy or WOULD buy comics, but have issues with the price, TOGETHER. ALL of us. Not you. Not me. ALL of us. And when you argue that there's 'no problem with current pricing' WITHOUT qualifying it with a 'for me', then you clearly aren't getting it, because there is a MAJOR PROBLEM.

There you go again telling me I don't get it. I never argued that there was NOT a problem with currect pricing.

It's simple.

Too many people (plural) have a problem with the prices of new comics, and it's affecting what gets published and how many copies of it are printed. End of story.

What does it matter how many copies are being published? Current printruns are for the most part satisfying current demand. I don't see how high prices are affecting WHAT is getting published. There will always be the fanboy bemoaning the fact that the industry is not printing what he wants. This is always an issue for some fans, not a recent development that can be instantly fixed if publishers lower their prices.

So lighten up, try to understand what I'm saying, and let's not get hostile....shall we? I'm simply discussing the pros, cons, and wherefores of the current priciing structure of comics, not making personal attacks.

So I'll ignore the personal attacks you've just made, k?

OMG! Go back and read the first line of my last post in this thread. Let it sink in as too why you feel so taken aback. You need to lighten up just as much as anybody. I'll ignore the snide little 'personal attacks' comment and allow you to keep your ego a little less bruised at my expense.

See I can fall on my sword too.

[lobo]

Oh...and it's silly to use the words 'always' and 'never' with regards to the future. We don't know what is going to happen, and to make predictions that are anything but the broadest, most general sweeps is just plain silly.

We can say something is LIKELY to happen, or it's POSSIBLE, or it MAY....but not 'always' and/or 'never'.

Agreed?

No. Anyone here can use the words 'always' and 'never' in the same sentence as 'future'.
Its silly that I feel the need to even respond to this.

[lobo]

.....I like pizza....

Fruit salad, yummy, yummy.

BTW, I've been on vacation for the last month. It's gonna be hard for me to post this much starting tomorrow (for all you people who were thinking "I wish depluto would shut the hell up!").

Depluto, I for one like your responses in this thread. I can identify with everything you are saying. Please keep it up!

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Oh...and it's silly to use the words 'always' and 'never' with regards to the future. We don't know what is going to happen, and to make predictions that are anything but the broadest, most general sweeps is just plain silly.

We can say something is LIKELY to happen, or it's POSSIBLE, or it MAY....but not 'always' and/or 'never'.

Agreed?

No. Anyone here can use the words 'always' and 'never' in the same sentence as 'future'.
Its silly that I feel the need to even respond to this.

Wow. You're an incredibly literal person, aren't you? This post wasn't even RESPONDING to you. Don't be daft, you know perfectly well what I'm saying; at this point you just want to be contrary.

Lord.

ANYONE using the words 'always' and 'never' with regards to the future (A) doesn't know what they're talking about, because it's the FUTURE and HASN'T HAPPENED YET, and (B) is usually proven wrong when said future rolls around and becomes the past. It's not that anyone's BANNED from saying those things; it's that it's FOOLISH to do so. DUH.

Otherwise...prestidigitation would be the highest paid job in America.

OY.

[lobo]

Oh...and it's silly to use the words 'always' and 'never' with regards to the future. We don't know what is going to happen, and to make predictions that are anything but the broadest, most general sweeps is just plain silly.

We can say something is LIKELY to happen, or it's POSSIBLE, or it MAY....but not 'always' and/or 'never'.

Agreed?

No. Anyone here can use the words 'always' and 'never' in the same sentence as 'future'.
Its silly that I feel the need to even respond to this.

Wow. You're an incredibly literal person, aren't you? This post wasn't even RESPONDING to you. Don't be daft, you know perfectly well what I'm saying; at this point you just want to be contrary.

Lord.

ANYONE using the words 'always' and 'never' with regards to the future (A) doesn't know what they're talking about, because it's the FUTURE and HASN'T HAPPENED YET, and (B) is usually proven wrong when said future rolls around and becomes the past. It's not that anyone's BANNED from saying those things; it's that it's FOOLISH to do so. DUH.

Otherwise...prestidigitation would be the highest paid job in America.

OY.

Only foolish in your mind. I see it as nitpicking and that is LITERALLY the most pleasant term I can come with.
I know it wasn't aimed at me but it certainly deserved a response. Remember I ALWAYS get what you mean.
I'll await your retort, no doubt it won't be long from now.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

It takes a jerk to know one I guess. Your posts have such a condescending attitude to other posters sometimes, you better expect this kind of reaction. I am responding in kind, you have have not been above this kind of behavior, but I don't think you realize it. Has it ever occurred to you WHY you get into these situations with others on this board in so many past occasions?

<laughs> OOOOK Lobo, whatever you say sugarbritches. Just keep in mind that *I* didn't get condescending until YOU decided to. Keep that in mind. Oh, and 'these situations'? What, you mean like with Vault Keeper and Kenshikenji? You mean, you want to be in THAT company? Serioiusly? Cause, those two guys are the only ones I've had a problem with...besides YOU. Please...tell me...what are these 'so many past occasions'? Hmmmm? Have YOU wondered why YOU get into these situations so many times with other posters yourself?

Oh, right, more of your condescending face saving. I forgot, my bad. You need to villainize me so that YOU don't come off looking like the jerk you're being. Right. My bad, sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.

Enough with this, Lobo, you obviously aren't capable of having a mature discussion without descending into condescension and insults simply because you misunderstand the point of the topic, and keep arguing against a point that I am not even making. And you don't even GET that you're MORE condescending and arrogant than I'm being.

There....don't we feel better now that we've told each other the neither of 'understands what we're doing''? <rolls eyes>

If it does not bother you then quite accusing me of 'working for' or being 'Charitable' with the comic publishers. I have already acknowledged that comic prices are too high, but I'll continue to buy what I want. Don't try to demonize me for it. Its clear that some people support your view but some others feel like I do. I can recognize this and so can you.

<laughs again> No one ACCUSED you of doing any such thing, RELAX. CALM DOWN. It was a QUESTION. YOU seem to be in GREAT SUPPORT for these high prices, you sure are DEFENDING them awful hard, and I asked a VALID question as to WHY. No one is trying to demonize you, what part of 'you are FREE TO DO WHATEVER YOU WISH' don't...you...under...stand?

And...you know, this is truly amazing to me...you just aren't capable of grasping the point...IT'S NOT ABOUT 'MY VIEW' and 'YOUR VIEW'...it's about the FACT....FACT...that FEWER people buy comics today than at ANY TIME in the past, the MAIN REASON which is BECAUSE of the high prices!

There are NO VIEWS being discussed here! If YOU think they're a fine value, GREAT. FINE. I'm not ARGUING THAT. I am STATING a FACT that a GREAT MANY people who USED to or WOULD buy comics DO NOT because they DON'T think they're a good value.

OY.

There you go again telling me I don't get it. I never argued that there was NOT a problem with currect pricing.

You are CLEARLY not getting it, because you INSIST on arguing that it's 'your right to pay whatever you want for comics, so stop trying to demonize me for it'...YES, it IS, and NO, I'm NOT. At THIS point, I think you're arguing JUST TO ARGUE, because you realize that it's NOT about YOU or ME, but you don't want to lose face and admit that.

What does it matter how many copies are being published?

You're kidding, right? I mean, seriously? It matters to the BOTTOM LINE. MORE copies get printed because of HIGHER ORDERS (which came about because of higher sales) which means that the industry is healthier, which means that RISKIER PROJECTS get green lighted.

Current printruns are for the most part satisfying current demand.

THAT IS THE POINT. There ISN'T GREATER DEMAND!!! There SHOULD BE.

<bangs head against desk>

I don't see how high prices are affecting WHAT is getting published. There will always be the fanboy bemoaning the fact that the industry is not printing what he wants. This is always an issue for some fans, not a recent development that can be instantly fixed if publishers lower their prices.

Higher prices = fewer sales = smaller bottom line = projects don't get greenlighted because of risk. It's simple.

And no one said...at ANY point...anything about an 'instant fix'.

OMG! Go back and read the first line of my last post in this thread. Let it sink in as too why you feel so taken aback. You need to lighten up just as much as anybody. I'll ignore the snide little 'personal attacks' comment and allow you to keep your ego a little less bruised at my expense.

See I can fall on my sword too.

OMG!! (yup, that's condescension) Go back and read YOUR posts. You are being JUST as condescending as I am, and you went first, son. Normal people are taken aback when others start insulting them. Duh. I'll lighten up just as soon as you do.

But you know what, Lobo? You win. You don't understand the basics of publishing, and you're now so caught up in your own ego and inability to see it that you won't back down and admit you were on the wrong track. You feel you need to 'save face' by being more rude and hostile, fine.

So, you win. This is long past the point of productive discussion. You think I'm being a total *SQUEE*, and I think you're being a total *SQUEE*, so what further will we accomplish by slinging insults at each other?

Nothing.

Not too long before this is Topic Oblivion anyways.

So...forGIVE me for responding. I should have realized at the outset that you couldn't get it, and saved all this vitriol. My bad.