Jim Shooter's Post Unity VALIANT Universe

[ManofTheAtom]

To what tribe does that Geomancer belong to?

I haven't idea one. IIRC, Turok was assigned to a few different tribes, no? Rags Morales did a lot of research and then authenticated Turok's appearance for the tribe assigned [Kiowa?], but then I'm positive the VH-2 Tal'Set was described as belonging to a completely different tribe [Cherokee, perhaps?].

This is all hazy and would need to be authenticated, as I migt have mis-remembered, here. After all, it's been way too long since I've read these...

BoH

The first VH 2 Turok comic had an article excusing their change from one tribe to another, but let's focus on the VALIANT version, which said that he was a Kiowa.

Is the NA in the image you posted Kiowa? If not, then he's not Andar, he could be one of the other NAs who were Geomancers

[BloodOfHeroes]

Is the NA in the image you posted Kiowa? If not, then he's not Andar, he could be one of the other NAs who were Geomancers

I don't know, but ultimately it's irrelevant, as Andar had decades of published appearances without a tribe assignation. Rags made the tribe Kiowa, and that was well into the run, no? This comic was published before the retcon, so we can't use that rule. It looks like the published versions of Andar, which--please note--is all I'm saying.

BoH

BTW--a quick google search reveals this piece, apparently the "official logo of the Kiowa tribe." Red headband and black & white feathers. Hmm.

[ManofTheAtom]

I don't know, but ultimately it's irrelevant, as Andar had decades of published appearances without a tribe assignation. Rags made the tribe Kiowa, and that was well into the run, no? This comic was published before the retcon, so we can't use that rule. It looks like the published versions of Andar, which--please note--is all I'm saying.

BoH

BTW--a quick google search reveals this piece, apparently the "official logo of the Kiowa tribe." Red headband and black & white feathers. Hmm.

I'm reading Turok now, and in issue 10, by Baron and Rags, he's refered to as Kiowa.

I don't remember if the reference appeared earlier, but even if it did it should be credited to Tim Truman in issue 4, which is the one where Andar returns (also with art by Rags).

So, while Rags may have drawn the stories, the credit for making Turok and Andar Kiowas goes to Truman or Baron, whoever used the reference first (be it issue 4 or issue 10).

As for the NA in the Magnus issue



he does have a feather similar to Andar's... but even if it was Andar, that doesn't mean that Geoff would have survived Unity.

All you're doing is proving that when that issue of Magnus (which was part of Unity) was drawn, the plan was to turn Andar into the Geomancer.

Add to that that Geoff had a death scene in Unity to the solicit, and the conclusion is that when the solicit and Unity were written and drawn the intention was to turn Andar into the Geomancer, a plan that changed after they wrote Rai #0.

Look at someone like Lucia Mendez, Geoff's supposed niece.

Didn't it ever strike you as odd that Geoff had a niece of possible latin or maybe even Native American descent (it's hard to keep track with the Spanish-sounding names sometimes, so she could have been either)?

[BloodOfHeroes]

he does have a feather similar to Andar's... but even if it was Andar, that doesn't mean that Geoff would have survived Unity.

All you're doing is proving that when that issue of Magnus (which was part of Unity) was drawn, the plan was to turn Andar into the Geomancer.

Um...

It looks like the published versions of Andar, which--please note--is all I'm saying. (emphasis added)

And "proving"? Far from it. "Supporting" at best. And I've never denied there was a plan to make Andar a Geomancer, now, have I?

Add to that that Geoff had a death scene in Unity

Obviously not.

to the solicit, and the conclusion is that when the solicit and Unity were written and drawn the intention was to turn Andar into the Geomancer, a plan that changed after they wrote Rai #0.

We'll never know. All I've said is that "Andar the Geomancer" doesn't contradict Rai #0. You keep trying to go there.

Look at someone like Lucia Mendez, Geoff's supposed niece.

Didn't it ever strike you as odd that Geoff had a niece of possible latin or maybe even Native American descent (it's hard to keep track with the Spanish-sounding names sometimes, so she could have been either)?

Nope. Why would that be odd?

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

We'll never know. All I've said is that "Andar the Geomancer" doesn't contradict Rai #0. You keep trying to go there.

Other way around. Rai #0 contradicts Andar the Geomancer since for Andar to become Geomancer Geoff has to retire or die.

When Buck retired, Geoff became Geomancer

When Geoff "died" in Chaos Effect, Clay became Geomancer.

There can only be one Geomancer and one apprentice at any one time.

In order for Andar to have become Geomancer, Geoff had to die OR willingly give up the calling to him.

No pun intended, no insult meant, but Geomancers can't be Indian givers.

They can't make someone a Geomancer and then take it back. Once someone becomes a Geomancer he stays a Geomancer until he willingly gives up the calling (to someone other than the one that made him a Geomancer in the first place) or dies. There's no third option.

Nope. Why would that be odd?

Where did she come from? How is she related to Geoff to be her niece?

Saying that he married into a latin or NA family so that his niece could be latin or NA is too convuluted. If Andar were her uncle, it would make more sense.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Other way around. Rai #0 contradicts Andar the Geomancer since for Andar to become Geomancer Geoff has to retire or die.

And all I'm asying is that perhaps the plan was always for Geoff to "unretire." Again--we don't know.

In order for Andar to have become Geomancer, Geoff had to die OR willingly give up the calling to him.

Agreed. And you mention how Clay become Geomancer, although Geoff neither (literally) died nor retired. Perhaps Andar was the inspiration for this, or an unrelated, first treatment of this theme.

They can't make someone a Geomancer and then take it back. Once someone becomes a Geomancer he stays a Geomancer until he willingly gives up the calling (to someone other than the one that made him a Geomancer in the first place) or dies. There's no third option.

Sure there is. A Geomancer can be presumed dead. You mentioned that yourself.

Where did she come from? How is she related to Geoff to be her niece?

Saying that he married into a latin or NA family so that his niece could be latin or NA is too convuluted. If Andar were her uncle, it would make more sense.

Huh? How is that not convoluted? Since Geoff was an only child, his niece would be related to him by marriage. Who would he have married to be related to Andar? Or are you saying Lapham drew Geoff instead of Andar, but then left a (seemingly) Latina niece "behind"? Again, Shooter described Rai #0 panel by panel. Andar wasn't erased and replaced with Geoff; Geoff was meant to be there.

Maybe Geoff was supposed to die and forever be replaced by Andar (believe me, I wish that had happened. I can't stand the character of Geoff!). Maybe he wasn't. But Rai #0 was drawn as Shooter intended it to be drawn. Perhaps in Shooter's treatment, she was merely a replacement and NOT a relative. Hmm?

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

And all I'm asying is that perhaps the plan was always for Geoff to "unretire." Again--we don't know.

Again, given the death scene and how badly written his escape was, it seems unlikely that that was ALWAYS the plan. Clearly it became the plan after Rai #0 was plotted (which happened after the solicits were sent to Diamond and after Magnus #15 and Eternal Warrior #2 were done).

Geoff's escape in the Rai Companion was done many months after the fact. If the plan was for Geoff to survive, his escape would have been explained much sooner.

The Rai Companion was nothing more than a rehashing of the opening scene in Rai #0 and an explanation for how Geoff escaped. It didn't add anything of true value other than to explain a convoluted idea.

Agreed. And you mention how Clay become Geomancer, although Geoff neither (literally) died nor retired. Perhaps Andar was the inspiration for this, or an unrelated, first treatment of this theme.

Keep in mind that Geoff did not choose Clay, that was Gilad's doing, and all he did was give him the book of Geomancers.

If anything, Clay was the non-Geomancer Geomancer, a guy neither chosen by the Earth nor by a predecessor.

When Geoff came back from the Lost Land it must have lead to some kind of conflict between the two since there can't be two Geomancers at once.

Sure there is. A Geomancer can be presumed dead. You mentioned that yourself.

Presumed dead is not dead.

Geoff was still a Geomancer even though he was in the Lost Land.

If being in the Lost Land canceled out his calling, then the Earth would have chosen a new Geomancer during Unity. That didn't happen.

Gilad screwed up, he acted according to the wrong information.

Huh? How is that not convoluted? Since Geoff was an only child, his niece would be related to him by marriage. Who would he have married to be related to Andar? Or are you saying Lapham drew Geoff instead of Andar, but then left a (seemingly) Latina niece "behind"? Again, Shooter described Rai #0 panel by panel. Andar wasn't erased and replaced with Geoff; Geoff was meant to be there.

I'm saying that maybe Shooter left Lucinda behind, either on purpose or by mistake, maybe because of the importance to the panel description, which would mean that Andar wasn't that important for the issue, which may be why the idea was dropped

Maybe Geoff was supposed to die and forever be replaced by Andar (believe me, I wish that had happened. I can't stand the character of Geoff!). Maybe he wasn't. But Rai #0 was drawn as Shooter intended it to be drawn. Perhaps in Shooter's treatment, she was merely a replacement and NOT a relative. Hmm?

That seems more likely given that he didn't do the dialogue

[buff-beardo]

Curious thread to read 13 years later. So much going on here in hindsight.

[Oxmyx]

viewtopic.php?p=156132&sid=19cdbbacb04b ... 390ad5b5ab

Psi-Borgs instead of HARD Corps.

http://www.valiantcomics.com/valiant/postunit.pdf

Lilora instead of Elya

Andar the Geomancer

Anybody have that postunit.pdf PDF that is mentioned? The link is old

Specifically im trying to learn what Shooter had planned for Turok because I'm curious but also I noticed Turok wasn't in Rai Zero too much, specifically the big group scene mourning Shadowman

[greg]

http://www.valiantarchives.com/valiant/postunit.pdf

[ManofTheAtom]

Curious thread to read 13 years later. So much going on here in hindsight.

Definitely!

[Ryan]

Didn't re-read this thread, but always an interesting topic.

I stumbled on a comment from the Shooter blog that I think does a more eloquent job than I can do explaining what Pre-Unity VALIANT accomplished and what it was like being there at the time.

JediJones
I totally agree with Jim Martin that if Jim Shooter had been able to remain at the helm of Valiant, the comic book world would be a completely different and better place today. The industry could have weathered the speculative storm because, beneath all the holographic foil covers, there still would have been great stories to fall back on.

The birth of Valiant was a remarkable, unlikely, against-all-odds success to a degree that cannot be understated. To me it was as big as Marvel breaking out in the '60s. It happened because Jim and company created comic books full of brilliant, masterful, fresh storytelling that were just as accessible, innocent and colorful as those early Marvel adventures.

Neither '60s Marvel nor Valiant tried to reinvent the fundamentals of comic book storytelling or the superhero medium. They just did it better, with more depth, more intelligence and more reality. The big difference when opening one of these books was that it wasn't a rehash of a rehash of a formula that had lost any recognizable connection to the real world. The creators were taking another look at the genre through the prism of real life in a successful effort to breathe new life into it. They did what the movie industry sometimes talks about as the paradox of giving the audience the same thing they loved before except new and different.

I cannot stress enough how difficult and unlikely a proposition it was at the time to get someone like me, more or less a Marvel loyalist, to dive into a brand new universe at a brand new company. Great skepticism coupled with budget limitations should have sunk any prospects of that for me. I never even heard about the launch of Valiant because I didn't follow "independent" titles.

But not long after that launch I had every Valiant title on my "pull list." I honestly don't remember my first Valiant issue or why I started. Maybe a free Unity preview, coverage in Wizard or just word-of-mouth? I know I got in early enough that I could still afford the back issue of Harbinger #1 on a paperboy's salary, a couple weeks before they started charging $100 for it. Harbinger was one of my favorite Valiant titles but I also loved Solar, Archer & Armstrong, X-O Manowar, et al.

It's worth noting that those early Valiant titles were soaring in price on the secondary market before they started doing any special covers or gimmicks. The demand was there for the right reasons, because people discovered they loved reading them and wanted to collect every one. That made the difference between costing $100 or being in the quarter bin.

If Jim could have stayed there to keep Valiant on the same path, readers like me wouldn't have ended up quitting comics a couple years later. Pretty soon flashy art, fancy covers and "events" like the Death of Superman or the Spider-Man Clone Saga completely replaced good storytelling at all the major companies. Marketing is a great tool for any good product, but I still cannot figure out why the entire industry suddenly seemed to decide that marketing was ALL they needed and they didn't have to have any entertaining content between the covers anymore.

It pained me as a reader then to see Jim ousted and Valiant dissolve into low-rent material. It likewise pained me as a believer in fairness and justice to read later that Jim never reaped the financial reward he deserved for building up that company, especially since the really huge orders didn't start coming in until right after the success of Unity.

I can't think of a more pivotal negative event in the history of comics than Jim being ousted from Valiant. We all deserved a better outcome just as we deserve better from the comic industry today. If a genie granted me three wishes today one would be to make a "What If Jim Shooter had continued running Valiant?" story come true.

[ManofTheAtom]

Didn't re-read this thread, but always an interesting topic.

I stumbled on a comment from the Shooter blog that I think does a more eloquent job than I can do explaining what Pre-Unity VALIANT accomplished and what it was like being there at the time.

JediJones
I totally agree with Jim Martin that if Jim Shooter had been able to remain at the helm of Valiant, the comic book world would be a completely different and better place today. The industry could have weathered the speculative storm because, beneath all the holographic foil covers, there still would have been great stories to fall back on.

The birth of Valiant was a remarkable, unlikely, against-all-odds success to a degree that cannot be understated. To me it was as big as Marvel breaking out in the '60s. It happened because Jim and company created comic books full of brilliant, masterful, fresh storytelling that were just as accessible, innocent and colorful as those early Marvel adventures.

Neither '60s Marvel nor Valiant tried to reinvent the fundamentals of comic book storytelling or the superhero medium. They just did it better, with more depth, more intelligence and more reality. The big difference when opening one of these books was that it wasn't a rehash of a rehash of a formula that had lost any recognizable connection to the real world. The creators were taking another look at the genre through the prism of real life in a successful effort to breathe new life into it. They did what the movie industry sometimes talks about as the paradox of giving the audience the same thing they loved before except new and different.

I cannot stress enough how difficult and unlikely a proposition it was at the time to get someone like me, more or less a Marvel loyalist, to dive into a brand new universe at a brand new company. Great skepticism coupled with budget limitations should have sunk any prospects of that for me. I never even heard about the launch of Valiant because I didn't follow "independent" titles.

But not long after that launch I had every Valiant title on my "pull list." I honestly don't remember my first Valiant issue or why I started. Maybe a free Unity preview, coverage in Wizard or just word-of-mouth? I know I got in early enough that I could still afford the back issue of Harbinger #1 on a paperboy's salary, a couple weeks before they started charging $100 for it. Harbinger was one of my favorite Valiant titles but I also loved Solar, Archer & Armstrong, X-O Manowar, et al.

It's worth noting that those early Valiant titles were soaring in price on the secondary market before they started doing any special covers or gimmicks. The demand was there for the right reasons, because people discovered they loved reading them and wanted to collect every one. That made the difference between costing $100 or being in the quarter bin.

If Jim could have stayed there to keep Valiant on the same path, readers like me wouldn't have ended up quitting comics a couple years later. Pretty soon flashy art, fancy covers and "events" like the Death of Superman or the Spider-Man Clone Saga completely replaced good storytelling at all the major companies. Marketing is a great tool for any good product, but I still cannot figure out why the entire industry suddenly seemed to decide that marketing was ALL they needed and they didn't have to have any entertaining content between the covers anymore.

It pained me as a reader then to see Jim ousted and Valiant dissolve into low-rent material. It likewise pained me as a believer in fairness and justice to read later that Jim never reaped the financial reward he deserved for building up that company, especially since the really huge orders didn't start coming in until right after the success of Unity.

I can't think of a more pivotal negative event in the history of comics than Jim being ousted from Valiant. We all deserved a better outcome just as we deserve better from the comic industry today. If a genie granted me three wishes today one would be to make a "What If Jim Shooter had continued running Valiant?" story come true.

Great find.

[grendeljd]

That’s a very interesting thought. If he had stayed at Valiant longer, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the diminishing returns of trying the same business model in subsequent companies. Could he have maintained the same momentum through more years with Valiant? Who can say… but we probably would have gotten more great stuff for a little while longer at least!

[ManofTheAtom]

That’s a very interesting thought. If he had stayed at Valiant longer, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the diminishing returns of trying the same business model in subsequent companies. Could he have maintained the same momentum through more years with Valiant? Who can say… but we probably would have gotten more great stuff for a little while longer at least!

I believe Broadway's Fatale was originally developed for VALIANT. That would have been an interesting addition.

[grendeljd]

That’s a very interesting thought. If he had stayed at Valiant longer, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the diminishing returns of trying the same business model in subsequent companies. Could he have maintained the same momentum through more years with Valiant? Who can say… but we probably would have gotten more great stuff for a little while longer at least!

I believe Broadway's Fatale was originally developed for VALIANT. That would have been an interesting addition.

To this day, I have yet to read a single issue of a Broadway title. I think when Defiant went down the same way for Shooter as Valiant did, it snapped my interest in following any similar subsequent endeavours at the time.

[ManofTheAtom]

That’s a very interesting thought. If he had stayed at Valiant longer, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the diminishing returns of trying the same business model in subsequent companies. Could he have maintained the same momentum through more years with Valiant? Who can say… but we probably would have gotten more great stuff for a little while longer at least!

I believe Broadway's Fatale was originally developed for VALIANT. That would have been an interesting addition.

To this day, I have yet to read a single issue of a Broadway title. I think when Defiant went down the same way for Shooter as Valiant did, it snapped my interest in following any similar subsequent endeavours at the time.

Far as I know, I got all of it. I thought it was really good. Better than what little I've read of Defiant.

[Ryan]

That’s a very interesting thought. If he had stayed at Valiant longer, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the diminishing returns of trying the same business model in subsequent companies. Could he have maintained the same momentum through more years with Valiant? Who can say… but we probably would have gotten more great stuff for a little while longer at least!

I believe Broadway's Fatale was originally developed for VALIANT. That would have been an interesting addition.

To this day, I have yet to read a single issue of a Broadway title. I think when Defiant went down the same way for Shooter as Valiant did, it snapped my interest in following any similar subsequent endeavours at the time.

Far as I know, I got all of it. I thought it was really good. Better than what little I've read of Defiant.

Broadway is the some of Shooter's best work. Here's what I said from this thread (http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54167) last year -

3. Broadway - I recently re-read a lot of these, and I still think they're really good. They're hampered by horrible early digital coloring and terrible cover/graphic design, especially in the early issues. I remember thinking they were sorta ugly/goofy looking at the time ('95) and the passage of time hasn't helped them. But the stories are very good and tight, and the interior art (once you get past the coloring) is really solid, better than Defiant IMO. In the end disappointing since the stories end suddenly, and things like having multiple pages of recap panels (from the previous issues) are not good ideas, but some good ideas like writing as a group. Shooter's best writing IMO is when he takes a cliche idea like the bad girl and actually makes it really good while still retaining the tropey elements (cheesecake in this case). He doesn't really subvert the tropes so much as he fleshes them out to make them more realistic in an enjoyable way.

They're very good, but like I said most of them end suddenly without resolution unfortunately. Just speculating here, but I think Shooter is better as a writer when he has other people to bounce ideas off of. Broadway wrote as a group (like TV writing) and early VALIANT was a big open room where people could chime in ideas.

Star Seed is one of my favorites. I re-read them all last year and then I read the script for issue 10 that's on Shooter's site, he was taking it in some crazy directions. Would have loved for that one to keep going.

[ManofTheAtom]

That’s a very interesting thought. If he had stayed at Valiant longer, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the diminishing returns of trying the same business model in subsequent companies. Could he have maintained the same momentum through more years with Valiant? Who can say… but we probably would have gotten more great stuff for a little while longer at least!

I believe Broadway's Fatale was originally developed for VALIANT. That would have been an interesting addition.

To this day, I have yet to read a single issue of a Broadway title. I think when Defiant went down the same way for Shooter as Valiant did, it snapped my interest in following any similar subsequent endeavours at the time.

Far as I know, I got all of it. I thought it was really good. Better than what little I've read of Defiant.

Broadway is the some of Shooter's best work. Here's what I said from this thread (http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54167) last year -

3. Broadway - I recently re-read a lot of these, and I still think they're really good. They're hampered by horrible early digital coloring and terrible cover/graphic design, especially in the early issues. I remember thinking they were sorta ugly/goofy looking at the time ('95) and the passage of time hasn't helped them. But the stories are very good and tight, and the interior art (once you get past the coloring) is really solid, better than Defiant IMO. In the end disappointing since the stories end suddenly, and things like having multiple pages of recap panels (from the previous issues) are not good ideas, but some good ideas like writing as a group. Shooter's best writing IMO is when he takes a cliche idea like the bad girl and actually makes it really good while still retaining the tropey elements (cheesecake in this case). He doesn't really subvert the tropes so much as he fleshes them out to make them more realistic in an enjoyable way.

They're very good, but like I said most of them end suddenly without resolution unfortunately. Just speculating here, but I think Shooter is better as a writer when he has other people to bounce ideas off of. Broadway wrote as a group (like TV writing) and early VALIANT was a big open room where people could chime in ideas.

Star Seed is one of my favorites. I re-read them all last year and then I read the script for issue 10 that's on Shooter's site, he was taking it in some crazy directions. Would have loved for that one to keep going.

Nice.

Back in 99 I found the Broadway website and downloaded artwork from Fatale's unpublished origin and the script. I gave them to Defiant-1, a member of this board, to upload to his site.

[Ryan]

That’s a very interesting thought. If he had stayed at Valiant longer, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the diminishing returns of trying the same business model in subsequent companies. Could he have maintained the same momentum through more years with Valiant? Who can say… but we probably would have gotten more great stuff for a little while longer at least!

I believe Broadway's Fatale was originally developed for VALIANT. That would have been an interesting addition.

To this day, I have yet to read a single issue of a Broadway title. I think when Defiant went down the same way for Shooter as Valiant did, it snapped my interest in following any similar subsequent endeavours at the time.

Far as I know, I got all of it. I thought it was really good. Better than what little I've read of Defiant.

Broadway is the some of Shooter's best work. Here's what I said from this thread (http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54167) last year -

3. Broadway - I recently re-read a lot of these, and I still think they're really good. They're hampered by horrible early digital coloring and terrible cover/graphic design, especially in the early issues. I remember thinking they were sorta ugly/goofy looking at the time ('95) and the passage of time hasn't helped them. But the stories are very good and tight, and the interior art (once you get past the coloring) is really solid, better than Defiant IMO. In the end disappointing since the stories end suddenly, and things like having multiple pages of recap panels (from the previous issues) are not good ideas, but some good ideas like writing as a group. Shooter's best writing IMO is when he takes a cliche idea like the bad girl and actually makes it really good while still retaining the tropey elements (cheesecake in this case). He doesn't really subvert the tropes so much as he fleshes them out to make them more realistic in an enjoyable way.

They're very good, but like I said most of them end suddenly without resolution unfortunately. Just speculating here, but I think Shooter is better as a writer when he has other people to bounce ideas off of. Broadway wrote as a group (like TV writing) and early VALIANT was a big open room where people could chime in ideas.

Star Seed is one of my favorites. I re-read them all last year and then I read the script for issue 10 that's on Shooter's site, he was taking it in some crazy directions. Would have loved for that one to keep going.

Nice.

Back in 99 I found the Broadway website and downloaded artwork from Fatale's unpublished origin and the script. I gave them to Defiant-1, a member of this board, to upload to his site.

Very cool. The script for that Fatale #0 is up on Shooter's site now, but I don't think I've ever seen that artwork.

Unfortunately it was revealed on this podcast interview with Shooter from last year (http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewto ... 1#p1116170) that Defiant1 has passed away.

[ManofTheAtom]

I believe Broadway's Fatale was originally developed for VALIANT. That would have been an interesting addition.

To this day, I have yet to read a single issue of a Broadway title. I think when Defiant went down the same way for Shooter as Valiant did, it snapped my interest in following any similar subsequent endeavours at the time.

Far as I know, I got all of it. I thought it was really good. Better than what little I've read of Defiant.

Broadway is the some of Shooter's best work. Here's what I said from this thread (http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54167) last year -

3. Broadway - I recently re-read a lot of these, and I still think they're really good. They're hampered by horrible early digital coloring and terrible cover/graphic design, especially in the early issues. I remember thinking they were sorta ugly/goofy looking at the time ('95) and the passage of time hasn't helped them. But the stories are very good and tight, and the interior art (once you get past the coloring) is really solid, better than Defiant IMO. In the end disappointing since the stories end suddenly, and things like having multiple pages of recap panels (from the previous issues) are not good ideas, but some good ideas like writing as a group. Shooter's best writing IMO is when he takes a cliche idea like the bad girl and actually makes it really good while still retaining the tropey elements (cheesecake in this case). He doesn't really subvert the tropes so much as he fleshes them out to make them more realistic in an enjoyable way.

They're very good, but like I said most of them end suddenly without resolution unfortunately. Just speculating here, but I think Shooter is better as a writer when he has other people to bounce ideas off of. Broadway wrote as a group (like TV writing) and early VALIANT was a big open room where people could chime in ideas.

Star Seed is one of my favorites. I re-read them all last year and then I read the script for issue 10 that's on Shooter's site, he was taking it in some crazy directions. Would have loved for that one to keep going.

Nice.

Back in 99 I found the Broadway website and downloaded artwork from Fatale's unpublished origin and the script. I gave them to Defiant-1, a member of this board, to upload to his site.

Very cool. The script for that Fatale #0 is up on Shooter's site now, but I don't think I've ever seen that artwork.

Unfortunately it was revealed on this podcast interview with Shooter from last year (http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewto ... 1#p1116170) that Defiant1 has passed away.

Damn.

[Sunlight on Snow]

Defiant-1's proboard is still up and running but some of the images hosted elsewhere aren't available anymore.

https://defiant1.proboards.com/thread/1 ... lished-art

[Ryan]

Defiant-1's proboard is still up and running but some of the images hosted elsewhere aren't available anymore.

https://defiant1.proboards.com/thread/1 ... lished-art

Great find, thanks

[ManofTheAtom]

Defiant-1's proboard is still up and running but some of the images hosted elsewhere aren't available anymore.

https://defiant1.proboards.com/thread/1 ... lished-art

Thanks.

[Ryan]

Another reason Shooter's Post-Unity VALIANT would have rocked is that he would have a lot more money to work with.

Pre-Unity they had to keep the costs down which is why they had a lot of unknowns and 'out of fashion' artists. He would have been able afford some of the higher priced Marvel and DC veterans for writers and artists.

I could see him hiring Larry Hama to do Rising Spirit, Ninjak, or HardCorps. Would have been fun to see Hama let loose in the more mature VALIANT universe, not held back by GIJoe being a toy license for kids. Stern on Magnus and Rai. Gruenwald, Claremont, Nocenti all would have been great to see on more mature properties, and they were falling out of favor at Marvel anyway.

Instead Layton gets first-timers and interns to write most of the flagship titles (Simpson on Harbinger, Gonzalez on X-O, Vanhook on Bloodshot, etc.). I mostly like Vanhook as a writer but it's insane that one of his first professional writing gigs was Bloodshot 1 that sold over a million copies and was tons of people's first (and only) exposure to VALIANT comics.