Origin of Harada - discussion

[magnusr]

Is the ability to control necromantic energy a Harbinger ability?

We've already gotten the no on this. Would like to add that the level of necromantic energy that can be extracted from a being was said to depend on how high up that being is on the evolutionary ladder.

Darque is 19th century.

And the enemy was much earlier than that. I'd say necromancy is way old.

/Magnus

[magnusr]

...and what is Rai?

Original Rai was partly an energy being. The Malev emperor noticed that ectotheric energy (a rather sterile or mechanical energy, pretty much the opposite of necomantic energy) had flowed in the previous Rai.

It was btw said that the ability Leeja and Obadiah had to manipulate ecotheric energy was a harbinger ability. Hmm, that ability of Leeja's was pretty much popped by M'ree. What was M'ree? And then there's the 1000 (including Leeja) with minor telepathic abilites, brought out by a computer. Were they ever explained?

/Magnus

[magnusr]

didn't those cards say that certain athltes are Harbingers?)

Don't remember what these cards were supposed to say (gotta check that article), but there sure were cards with athletes.

/Magnus

[ManofTheAtom]

didn't those cards say that certain athltes are Harbingers?)

Don't remember what these cards were supposed to say (gotta check that article), but there sure were cards with athletes.

/Magnus

I think Michael Jordan was one.

[myron]

nice save Greg...but you ruined the new thread with this...

[ManofTheAtom]

It's still here

[jedimarley]

But I lost my "Jedimarley is..." thread.

[Blood of Heroes]

Was Torque a Class A after Pete got to him? If memory serves, I recall the Harada troops stating that the Harbinger kids were all Class A. I will have to re-read the Hardcover, JIC.

Maybe a class D is someone who abilities have just been realized and a class A is someone who has mastered them.

[ManofTheAtom]

I was going over a bag of freebies from the 94/95 San Diego Comic Con and found this.

I also remember handling what would have been the set's box, which was like a plastic filling cabinet.

[magnusr]

I was going over a bag of freebies from the 94/95 San Diego Comic Con and found this.

I found the article and like your freebies it talks about athlete Harbingers. No final suggestion whether they really are Harbingers or if they're just under observation. The whole card set was supposed to be like the files Harada might keep.

/Magnus

PS, the article did mention the upcoming Harada special comic. I guess that's simply Harbinger Files issue 1.

[ManofTheAtom]

I was going over a bag of freebies from the 94/95 San Diego Comic Con and found this.

I found the article and like your freebies it talks about athlete Harbingers. No final suggestion whether they really are Harbingers or if they're just under observation. The whole card set was supposed to be like the files Harada might keep.

/Magnus

PS, the article did mention the upcoming Harada special comic. I guess that's simply Harbinger Files issue 1.

Article? From where?

[ManofTheAtom]

REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

**** REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

**** REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

Madame Rowena, Noriko's fortune teller (a Harbinger)

Toyo's parents took him to many doctors to see if they could tell them what was wrong...
when that didn't work, they eventually took little Toyo to see Madame Rowena,
thinking that a fortune teller / psychic / seer / mystic might have answers.

That day she met little Toyo, Madame Rowena entered Toyo's mind and "popped" him,
the same way that Pete is able to "pop" other Harbingers into their full abilities.
Madame Rowena realized that Toyo was "like her, but far greater".

For a fortune teller Rowena sucked.

Didn't she foresee that Toyo would lead the world into a 900+ year war?

Maybe she should have read Rai #0.

[whetteon]

REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

**** REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

**** REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

Madame Rowena, Noriko's fortune teller (a Harbinger)

Toyo's parents took him to many doctors to see if they could tell them what was wrong...
when that didn't work, they eventually took little Toyo to see Madame Rowena,
thinking that a fortune teller / psychic / seer / mystic might have answers.

That day she met little Toyo, Madame Rowena entered Toyo's mind and "popped" him,
the same way that Pete is able to "pop" other Harbingers into their full abilities.
Madame Rowena realized that Toyo was "like her, but far greater".

For a fortune teller Rowena sucked.

Didn't she foresee that Toyo would lead the world into a 900+ year war?

Maybe she should have read Rai #0.

Maybe she did. Just because she didn't come out and tell the reader 'You'll be fighting a war 900 years in the future' doesn't mean she didn't already know that.

[ManofTheAtom]

REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

**** REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

**** REMINDER - THESE ARE SPOILERS *** DON'T KEEP READING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW YET ****

Madame Rowena, Noriko's fortune teller (a Harbinger)

Toyo's parents took him to many doctors to see if they could tell them what was wrong...
when that didn't work, they eventually took little Toyo to see Madame Rowena,
thinking that a fortune teller / psychic / seer / mystic might have answers.

That day she met little Toyo, Madame Rowena entered Toyo's mind and "popped" him,
the same way that Pete is able to "pop" other Harbingers into their full abilities.
Madame Rowena realized that Toyo was "like her, but far greater".

For a fortune teller Rowena sucked.

Didn't she foresee that Toyo would lead the world into a 900+ year war?

Maybe she should have read Rai #0.

Maybe she did. Just because she didn't come out and tell the reader 'You'll be fighting a war 900 years in the future' doesn't mean she didn't already know that.

Heh

[Escaflown4]

Now if that is the established rules, the million dollar question is who popped Rowena? Who is actually the 1st Harbinger?

[ManofTheAtom]

Now if that is the established rules, the million dollar question is who popped Rowena? Who is actually the 1st Harbinger?

Maybe Rowena wasn't popped, she just had the bare hint of an ability the same way that those who write to the foundation asking for help do.

[Escaflown4]

Now if that is the established rules, the million dollar question is who popped Rowena? Who is actually the 1st Harbinger?

Maybe Rowena wasn't popped, she just had the bare hint of an ability the same way that those who write to the foundation asking for help do.

According to the book, it looks like she had full control of her abilities when she entered Toyo's mind.

[Zaphod]

((This is a cross post))

Finally got my 2 copies today and I had never read any of the early Harbinger stories outside of what was in the original TPB (as an aside that TPB is complete *SQUEE* without finishing the arc with Torques death.

***SPOILERS AHEAD***
***SPOILERS AHEAD***
***SPOILERS AHEAD***

A few thoughts:
- I like how Toyo's wife, Noriko (why does that name seem familiar?) doesn't correct or explain the blood on the knife to Madam Rowena. I wonder what their backstory is, they were obviously familiar with each other and Noriko kept her name in the dayplanner for the 7th.
- I have to wonder why Noriko cut herself on that particular day and why she kept that from Madam Rowena? Rowena assumed she used the knife to kill Harada but that is when Harada arrives to take Noriko home.
- It does sound as if Rowena "popped" Harada and she considers herself the first. We know chronologically the Ani-Padda boys are the first from the stories that have been printed. I wouldn't be surprised if Rowena was still "popped" in some later Retcon.
-The last page dialogue is what interests me the most.

Panel 1
(Harada arrives at Madam Rowena's, revealing that Noriko hadn't killed Harada as Rowena assumed from the bloody blade)
Harada - No. She didn't.
Noriko - Fiddlesticks.

Panel 2
(Harada and Noriko leaving, Rowena on the porch watching them leave. Noriko had brought along a teddy bear from Harada's youth as if Rowena could use it to see Harada's past actions. Very reminisciant of Unity 1 with Solar and the Wizard of Oz record that was Erica's as a young girl. Harada has quite a tight grip on the bear.)
Rowena - You should have done it. Get out of here, Toyo, you sick freak and take your chattel with you!

Panel 3
(similiar to the last panel, but this time from Rowena's POV)
Noriko - Next Year?
Rowena - If I'm still Compos Mentis.
Noriko - "Still"?

Panel 4
(Harada and Noriko flying away, hovering over a rooftop)
Harada - I Forgot what day it was till I saw your dayplanner. You cut yourself again. I wish you wouldn't do that. Blood everywhere.
Noriko - I need to feel the pain and see the blood. It makes what I am contemplating real to me.

Panel 5
(Still flying, closer up. Noriko particularily looking away from Harada)
Noriko - I...still believe in you. But you know I can't stand the deaths...the suffering. You could just wipe away my doubts. And Rowena's knowledge of them...
Harada - No. There must be a control. When you stop believing in me...end it. As for the old woman -- who would listen to a fortuneteller?

Panel 6
March 8
2:34AM
(Harada sits/stands in the dark next to a prone ((sleeping?)) Noriko clutching the bear. He is seemingly in a nightrobe)

- What exactly is Noriko contemplating "It makes what I am contemplating real to me"?
- What does Harada mean by "there must be a control"? As in control subject. As in control over what he is doing.

It is very heavily implied that Harada has influenced many of the large conflicts of the last century and was instrumental in the successes (Cuban Missle Crisis, Apartheid, Tiananmen Square, the fall of the Berling wall) as well as its failures (The Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, the Mideast mess). The story almost seeks to make Harada push the agenda that Harada is less a villian and more an idealist with loose morals and a "ends justify the means" person which is quite consistent to Shooters writing of Harada.

It also pointed out that pretty much immediately after murdering his parents, Harada went to Noriko whose family was a neighbour of the Harada's and asked her to come away with him to be his wife. Toyo was 6 and she was 11. Seems that Shooter used a little bit of Harada's origin story in "Knights on Broadway" Not exactly but I can see the similarities. Noriko points out that she "doesn't think" that Harada made her go with him but it certainly mirrors many of the same conflicts Pete had with Kris and others but never answers them definitively.

I love the story, it is far too short and leaves me wanting more. The recoloring of the stories is beautiful and it was money well spent IMO.

[Zaphod]

Also the Immortal Enemy, is that ability of his to transfer into other hosts' bodies a Harbinger ability?

I don't know if everything in the Valiant universe should be or can be classified as Harbinger or Other. I always took the choice of the word harbinger to refer to what they either couldn't or wouldn't refer to as Mutants from Marvel. People born with their abilities rather than acquiring them through external means. Like Marvels Mutants, their "mutant" ability can become active at different times in their lives, though it seems it is just as likely a "harbinger" can go his entire life without being "popped."

And does anyone else see a similarity in the Pyramid Logo and the new Valiant Logo?

[ManofTheAtom]

The Immortal Enemy was powered by necromantic energy, so he doesn't qualify as a Harbinger.

[mavros]

A few things:

1) I think one of the key lines in the story is when the fortune teller says that they she didn't realize that she was different until twenty-some.

Could be something about when you are 'popped'?

2) In regards to Harada saying their needs to be 'a control', I think he and Noriko may have a pact where if he becomes drunk with power that she is to kill him... just a theory... but it definitely cast Harada in a less villainous light.

3) I initially thought that the class ranking system in the early Harbinger issues were based on power levels. But now that I think about it, maybe it's based on their power types. Class A would be energy projection/manipulation (Flamingo, Spike, and Fort all project some type of energy) and then Class D would be more physical (either super-strong or tough or both... possibly including other physical traits).

Harada's troop that said they were all Class A could have been mistaken... maybe they were misinformed so they would take all of them seriously (no way that Zephyr was a Class A)... or it was an editing mistake.

[ManofTheAtom]

2) In regards to Harada saying their needs to be 'a control', I think he and Noriko may have a pact where if he becomes drunk with power that she is to kill him... just a theory... but it definitely cast Harada in a less villainous light.

Could Noriko be a Harbinger with the power to stop Harada?

Do we know if this is a story Shooter came up with specifically for the hc or is it something he had planned all along?

[Zaphod]

2) In regards to Harada saying their needs to be 'a control', I think he and Noriko may have a pact where if he becomes drunk with power that she is to kill him... just a theory... but it definitely cast Harada in a less villainous light.

Could Noriko be a Harbinger with the power to stop Harada?

Do we know if this is a story Shooter came up with specifically for the hc or is it something he had planned all along?

It doesn't address it directly and I am at work so I don't have it in front of me but I am fairly certain it states that this new story is based upon the Story of Harada that was on the back of the coupons for Harbinger 0. (is that right, I can't recall where that story was printed)

So based on that story essentially. No confirmation that leads me to think one way or another on whether Shooter would have printed this story before.

If Noriko is a Harbinger and has the power to stop Harada it is not suggested or alluded to at all. It is actually quite vague the whole "control" comment...damn that Shooter anyways.

[ManofTheAtom]

2) In regards to Harada saying their needs to be 'a control', I think he and Noriko may have a pact where if he becomes drunk with power that she is to kill him... just a theory... but it definitely cast Harada in a less villainous light.

Could Noriko be a Harbinger with the power to stop Harada?

Do we know if this is a story Shooter came up with specifically for the hc or is it something he had planned all along?

It doesn't address it directly and I am at work so I don't have it in front of me but I am fairly certain it states that this new story is based upon the Story of Harada that was on the back of the coupons for Harbinger 0. (is that right, I can't recall where that story was printed)

So based on that story essentially. No confirmation that leads me to think one way or another on whether Shooter would have printed this story before.

If Noriko is a Harbinger and has the power to stop Harada it is not suggested or alluded to at all. It is actually quite vague the whole "control" comment...damn that Shooter anyways.

That only gives more credence to the idea that VEI may be planning to follow this up with new Harbinger stories that at the very least continue from where issue 7 left off.

They may even ignore Unity altogether, though that's not likely.

Only real question is if the new material will be dated 1992 or 2008.

[Zaphod]

2) In regards to Harada saying their needs to be 'a control', I think he and Noriko may have a pact where if he becomes drunk with power that she is to kill him... just a theory... but it definitely cast Harada in a less villainous light.

Could Noriko be a Harbinger with the power to stop Harada?

Do we know if this is a story Shooter came up with specifically for the hc or is it something he had planned all along?

It doesn't address it directly and I am at work so I don't have it in front of me but I am fairly certain it states that this new story is based upon the Story of Harada that was on the back of the coupons for Harbinger 0. (is that right, I can't recall where that story was printed)

So based on that story essentially. No confirmation that leads me to think one way or another on whether Shooter would have printed this story before.

If Noriko is a Harbinger and has the power to stop Harada it is not suggested or alluded to at all. It is actually quite vague the whole "control" comment...damn that Shooter anyways.

That only gives more credence to the idea that VEI may be planning to follow this up with new Harbinger stories that at the very least continue from where issue 7 left off.

They may even ignore Unity altogether, though that's not likely.

Only real question is if the new material will be dated 1992 or 2008.

That would be circumstansual evidence at best. The story makes sense because it picks up at the end of the Graphic Novel story (after Torque has been killed). I wouldn't think this indicates one way or another VEI's plans for new material, but I do like that if they reprint more old material they may look to add something new like this to the old material.

Sure it feels like I've bought this Nirvana box set 4 times already, but each one has a little bit of new material each time!