How would you bring back the Valiant Universe?

[Chiclo]

You just want Charmed-lite.

Maybe we could make Dr. Doom the Source of All Evil...

[ManofTheAtom]

You just want Charmed-lite.

Maybe we could make Dr. Doom the Source of All Evil...

...

[Chiclo]

But dude, Psi-Lords are really long lived.

So are Geomancers, but they can still die.

Yeah, but Geomancers are at best a century and a half.

Psi-Lords live for 7 or 10.

[ManofTheAtom]

But dude, Psi-Lords are really long lived.

So are Geomancers, but they can still die.

Yeah, but Geomancers are at best a century and a half.

Psi-Lords live for 7 or 10.

They can still die, and if they do they can be replaced by new ones.

[xodacia81]

Interesting ideas.As for the "reset", you misunderstand. I neither suggested this is what I want nor that this would be a good thing, but that this is a speculative possibilty. What "should" happen, and what will, are more than likely two very different things. However, if it is as it appears, and that is that Shooter is onboard in some minor-at least-capacity, I think we can rest assured that the transition into the new books will be as smooth as possible.

[ManofTheAtom]

Interesting ideas.As for the "reset", you misunderstand. I neither suggested this is what I want nor that this would be a good thing, but that this is a speculative possibilty. What "should" happen, and what will, are more than likely two very different things. However, if it is as it appears, and that is that Shooter is onboard in some minor-at least-capacity, I think we can rest assured that the transition into the new books will be as smooth as possible.

Like I said, given the date in the preview pages from the Harbinger HC, it can be infered that the dates are staying the same and the stories still took place in the 90's.

[mavros]

If I was going to restart the Valiant Universe, I would get Jim Shooter back on board and give him free reign. Let him re-release Rai #0 the way he wanted it to be and then let him do whatever the hell wants. Done.

[slym2none]

Me likey #2 (from the first post.)



-slym

[Chiclo]

Me likey #2 (from the first post.)



-slym

Where did that come from? On-topic?

[Daniel Jackson]

On-topic?

Hmm...what are those strange words mean.....

[yardstick]

I would release one of the early pre-unity stories, maybe Harbinger, in a hard cover format, then maybe to get all the Val. dudes all riled up, I would include a new Shooter story, maybe an orgin.

[yardstick]

I would release one of the early pre-unity stories, maybe Harbinger, in a hard cover format, then maybe to get all the Val. dudes all riled up, I would include a new Shooter story, maybe an orgin.

Bah! That would never work.

[yardstick]

#2 just pick up the universe now where it should be (according to Rai #0) and use the next several months/years filling in the missing gaps via story telling (since thats what Valiant was always best at IMHO anyway).

That's the real VALIANT way to do it.

I'd start with six one shots, one for each core series (Magnus, Solar, Harbinger, X-O Manowar, Rai, and Shadowman) all set in the present day and all designed to reintroduce the character's concepts to new readers without being an origin story.

Maybe make them some sort of retrospective on where the characters have been.

Make each one shot like the movie version of the character. Focus the first part of the story on the origin and then move ahead to the new story.

And since they're VALIANT comics I'd have each one shot be slightly connected to the other. Unity-style maybe but not as repetitive.

In other words, I'd have the one shots have some pages or scenes in common done from different perspectives. Like say one scene where the six characters meet rewritten to fit that particular character's pov.

Good ideas, but make the first issues Yearbooks for 2006, then a 2007 yearbook to cover 2007 (the year in review) at the end of this year, then a 2008 yearbook at the beginning of 2008 a la rai 0...

Then subsequently add a yearbook for each year 2009 a la rai 0 + 2005 yearbook (also printed in 2009) detailing your description:

Maybe make them some sort of retrospective on where the characters have been.

Or perhaps even a flipbook 2006/2007, 2008/2005, 2009/2004, etc... and connect the stories in the flipbooks together a la old-style continuity...

[yardstick]

I would love to see the characters picked up in the present day, the VH-Shooter versions. Remember in Unity 2000 there was a distinction made the VH-1 characters and VH-Shooter. The VH-Shooter characters were his version of how the characters would have been if he had been writing them in the years between Unity and 2000. I think it would be hard for new readers to get into it if all the stories were taking place in 1993.

Beyond a few hardcover collections of the best pre-unity books, there wouldn't need to be much backtracking. Just re-establish a few of the core characters (Harb, X-O, EW, BS, etc.) and grow out from there. Just my opinion though.

I second that. present day characters...

[yardstick]

Finish Unity 2000 and use that to explain what happened in X-O Manowar #68.
Then blow up both V1 and V2 universes and then start fresh with a hybrid of V1 and V2.

That would be eaier to do if they had Solar...

[yardstick]

I'd have to go with a hybrid approach. Accept all of VH1 as canon up to and including X-0 68. Then be a little 'elastic' with time as (I think) xodacia81 is suggesting. That way we get the Harbinger kids as kids. otherwise all of the non-immortal characters across the line are 15 years or so older so we are looking at characters in their 30s and possibly 40's. Real-time aging catches up.

If the real-time element is maintained, and the line is long-term successful, which I would love to see (the long-term success that is), say ten to twenty years from now and still going (and I am straying into hypothesis now, I know), the problem arises that Aric, Doctor Mirage, Jack Boniface (if they get around the 1999 prophecy which is not entirely impossible - this is comics after all), the HARDCorps and any other guys from the present day will all be pushing into their 50's or 60's by then. And their supporting casts will age also. At which point writers will likely be coming up with ever more ludicrous reasons to keep the characters young enough to not alienate readers and force the abandonment of cornerstone titles.

I think if you look carefully at the valiant universe characters, you will see that it is possible to have completely different people in the valiant titles without having to worry about the aging issue. Take for example Shadowman: Jack Boniface and Max St James. Yes, Jack Boniface dies in 1999, but Shadowman lives on. Both men are Shadowman. Also, Harbinger: Pete Stancheck and John Stancheck. Both have the Omega Power and are leaders of the Harbinger rebels. How many generations removed from Pete is John? Rai in the Rai title (#1) was the 43rd Rai. What about the other 42? H.A.R.D. Corps/Armorines/Secret (Secrete? ) Weapons, et al: People can rotate into and then [age] out of these team books. All of these examples show how the Titles can be fresh and new without losing their continuity to the VH1 universe.

[yardstick]

(if they get around the 1999 prophecy which is not entirely impossible - this is comics after all)

That's what I'm talking about.

VALIANT comics weren't like DC or Marvel's, where crap like characters not ageing works.

There's no reason whatsoever to keep Jack alive in 2007/08. He died in 99, period. Why keep him alive now?

You don't need him to be alive to tell stories with him set before he died.

So you want all stories before 1999? Then why bother with the real-time aging...?

Since Jack died in 99, it be impossible to have Shadowman stories with him set after that. Any stories that showed him still alive should be set before 99.

Once again, VALIANT is NOT DC or Marvel.

My original point wasn't about wanting/not wanting Jack as Shadowman, it was about real time aging and the problems with maintaining the same cast of non-immortal characters (and the associated titles) without them getting very old if the books are successful and so last a lot longer than last time.

Remember the slogan?

Valiant: Where dead, is dead.

[yardstick]

Hwen won't age, but Carmen will.

Now wouldnt that be an interesting storyline. A la Highlander 1

[yardstick]

Hwen won't age, but Carmen will.

Which gives the series drama, like with Solar and Gayle.

Do you want the same characters or differnt ones? Will other readers (beside yourself) want the same characters or will they readily accept replacements? If they don't accept replacements the books don't last. Simple.

I want VALIANT, were dead is dead and real time is real time.

Jack died in 99, we just didn't get a chance to see it (unless you count Unity 2000, which if you do then this argument is moot).

Why should Jack's death not count when everyone else's did?

If other readers really want VALIANT, then they'll accept that it's not DC or Marvel and that in VALIANT when characters die they can be replaced by new ones (like with the Rais) or if the concept calls for it be replaced by new ones when their time runs out (like the Geomancers).

Pandering to fanboys by keeping the same characters around for all eternity would be the wrong thing to do.

Last thing VALIANT needs is a 60 year old reader who's proud that he started reading the Jack Boniface comic when he was 10 years old and have the comic still running for 50 years.

How long would you like a new VALIANT to survive?

For a long time, but not as a pseudo DC or Marvel universe.

I want the VALIANT Universe with a linear timeline, dead is dead, and real time.

I might add, that by allowing the characters to be replaced or die off, Valint makes openings for new readers to enter the market and enjoy the stories without having to collect 400 back issues just to understand what is going on currently. They also do not have to rehash old strylines or start all over again with #1 issues just to retell the same stories, like Marvel and DC.

[leonmallett]

I'd have to go with a hybrid approach. Accept all of VH1 as canon up to and including X-0 68. Then be a little 'elastic' with time as (I think) xodacia81 is suggesting. That way we get the Harbinger kids as kids. otherwise all of the non-immortal characters across the line are 15 years or so older so we are looking at characters in their 30s and possibly 40's. Real-time aging catches up.

If the real-time element is maintained, and the line is long-term successful, which I would love to see (the long-term success that is), say ten to twenty years from now and still going (and I am straying into hypothesis now, I know), the problem arises that Aric, Doctor Mirage, Jack Boniface (if they get around the 1999 prophecy which is not entirely impossible - this is comics after all), the HARDCorps and any other guys from the present day will all be pushing into their 50's or 60's by then. And their supporting casts will age also. At which point writers will likely be coming up with ever more ludicrous reasons to keep the characters young enough to not alienate readers and force the abandonment of cornerstone titles.

I think if you look carefully at the valiant universe characters, you will see that it is possible to have completely different people in the valiant titles without having to worry about the aging issue. Take for example Shadowman: Jack Boniface and Max St James. Yes, Jack Boniface dies in 1999, but Shadowman lives on. Both men are Shadowman. Also, Harbinger: Pete Stancheck and John Stancheck. Both have the Omega Power and are leaders of the Harbinger rebels. How many generations removed from Pete is John? Rai in the Rai title (#1) was the 43rd Rai. What about the other 42? H.A.R.D. Corps/Armorines/Secret (Secrete? ) Weapons, et al: People can rotate into and then [age] out of these team books. All of these examples show how the Titles can be fresh and new without losing their continuity to the VH1 universe.

Which is all well and good: however certain great characters in fiction are so well regarded that they transcend ideas such as real-time aging - Bond, Holmes, Batman for example. Imagine the Harbinger kids. The core concept driving the book is a 'group of teens on the run with super-powers' or something along those lines. Will having them age in real-time long-term make them more viable? Well to maintain the concept you have to (as you put it) rotate characters in to replace the cited examples. My point is - are good stories good because they are well crafted, well written, and well drawn, or are they good stories because charcters age in real-time? I would staunchly argue that the real-time element is dressing, nothing more. Heck, in Unity the real time element went out of the window anyway (how long were they 'subjectively' in the Lost Land - certainly longer than two months if I am not mistaken - and how long after they disappeared did they reappear? The real-time touch is nice, but it is also potentially constrictive when it comes to (validly) multi-part stories.

[yardstick]

I think in the comic book world it's going to be a little hard for a publisher to kill of a character when Rai #0 says it's time even if that character is blazing popular at the moment...

I completely disagree. Let's analyze this scenario:

Superpopular Man in issue 345 is going to die (in 3 months). Sales have been increasing steadily since his death was predicted in Rai #0.

Orders for issue #345 are the largest ever. Company kills off Superpopular Man, on schedule.

What happens?

Fans get what was asked for: death of Superpopular Man.
Company gets lots of sales


What happens next?

New jumping on point for new readers because Superpopular Man #1 (vol 2?) was solicited the month after Superpopular Man 345.

Everyone wonders why Superpopular Man #1 is being issued when he clearly died in issue #345. So older readers buy #1 issue, since there is closure to the previous series. Older readers are hoping series #2 will be as good as series #1. (we will presume for the sake of this argument that series 2 is as good as series 1)

For hardcore fanboys of Series 1 Superpopular Man (SPM), one-shots and mini series (background and historical filler stories) regarding that "incarnation" are also sold, but they also tie into the current continuity so that n00bs can enjoy also.

Obviously there must be some kind of relationship between Series 1 SPM and series 2 SPM. The inverse of this is why VH2 sucked in general: no relationship betwen VH1 character versions and VH2 character versions.

[yardstick]

...Heck, in Unity the real time element went out of the window anyway (how long were they 'subjectively' in the Lost Land - certainly longer than two months if I am not mistaken - and how long after they disappeared did they reappear?

How pregnant was Kris at the time the Harbingers entered the Lost land?

I am pretty sure that Magnus, born in the lost land, was not a newborn when Solar took him to the future. So, how old was he when Solar took him to 3975?

[yardstick]

Which is all well and good: however certain great characters in fiction are so well regarded that they transcend ideas such as real-time aging - Bond, Holmes, Batman for example...

Nevertheless, it is possible to have characters who transcend, be replaced by new people playing the same character, who can also express the same transcendence...

How easy do you think it could have been for DC to kill of bruce wayne and then have Dick grayson don the mantle of the batman? Do people find Bruce Wayne transcendent? or Batman?

[leonmallett]

Which is all well and good: however certain great characters in fiction are so well regarded that they transcend ideas such as real-time aging - Bond, Holmes, Batman for example...

Nevertheless, it is possible to have characters who transcend, be replaced by new people playing the same character, who can also express the same transcendence...

How easy do you think it could have been for DC to kill of bruce wayne and then have Dick grayson don the mantle of the batman? Do people find Bruce Wayne transcendent? or Batman?

It is Batman/Bruce Wayne. Changing the character would be just that - calling a new character Batman would not maintain or draw upon the historical cachet, but this will never be tested long-term so it is impossible to say. Each incarnation (your hypothetical Dick Grayson/Batman or the original) would be a different character, same way as each Rai is different, and the replacement is a risk. Risks can be good, but they can backfire. I hope tha whatever chances VALIANT takes in the future that they do not expose themselves in a way that isn't successful.

[leonmallett]

...Heck, in Unity the real time element went out of the window anyway (how long were they 'subjectively' in the Lost Land - certainly longer than two months if I am not mistaken - and how long after they disappeared did they reappear?

How pregnant was Kris at the time the Harbingers entered the Lost land?

I am pretty sure that Magnus, born in the lost land, was not a newborn when Solar took him to the future. So, how old was he when Solar took him to 3975?

there were (temporally subjectively) 157 days of Unity. Gives a lie to the real-time matter...