Valiant Beyond to be an Absolute Ultimate Valiant Universe Rebirth

[ManofTheAtom]

A multiverse is just a way to describe when fictional characters have multiple iterations that exist in separate fictional worlds. It doesn't have to be acknowledged in the fiction for it to be true, it's just a way we use to define and categorize it.

Street Fighter has a video game, animated series, movie, and comic series all with somewhat different versions of the characters with different backstorys, etc. So that's a Street Fighter multiverse. It doesn't have to be acknowledged in the canon for it to exist. The different iterations of characters don't have to meet for the multiverse to exist. It's just a way to describe it.

Marv Wolfman didn't create the multiverse idea, it began when DC rebooted some of its Golden Age characters with different origins and backstorys, thus a multiverse.

Led by editor Julius Schwartz and writer Gardner Fox, DC Comics' superheroes were given a "reboot" with the publication of Showcase #4 in 1956, where a new version of the Flash made his first appearance. This is considered the beginning period of the Silver Age of Comic Books. The success of this new Flash led to the creation of new incarnations of the Golden Age characters who only shared the names and powers but had different secret identities, origins and stories.

Later, new versions of other heroes, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, were also restarted by retelling their origins but keeping their secret identities. Gardner Fox, who worked before in the creation of the JSA, where other heroes met for the first time, created the story "Flash of Two Worlds" in The Flash #123 (1961), where Barry Allen, the new Flash, is transported to the Earth where the original Flash, Jay Garrick, existed. To Allen, Jay Garrick's world was a work of fiction as it was in the real world.

This story not only presented the encounter of two worlds and the existence of the Multiverse for the first time, but it also presented key features of the Multiverse: all the universes vibrate at a specific frequency which keeps them separated; these "barriers" could be trespassed by "tuning" to that vibration. Because people could also "tune-in" these worlds in dreams, some people wrote comic books with the stories from those worlds they dreamed, which explained why Barry Allen knew about Jay Garrick as a fictional character.

The Valiant multiverse was created when VH2 rebooted the characters and had them existing in a different fictional world than VH1. That doesn't mean they have to acknowledge it in the books or the characters ever have to interact.

Having the different versions interact would be a choice. I agree in general having the different versions of the same characters interact has become a tired trope at this point.

And that may work for all those others, it need not be how it is at VALIANT.

From the onset, VALIANT, through the Solar comic, made its rules about energy and matter very clear in adherence to the first law of thermodynamics.

Multiverses contradict that law.

We all agree that hard science is part of the backbone of VALIANT's identity. The Law of Thermodynamics would be hard science, whereas multiverses are pseudo science.

Your citation of multiverses originating at DC only make them look worse because DC back then was less grounded than Marvel (which did, eventually, introduce their own multiverse, but by then they had lost their own identity too, much like VALIANT later did).

[Ryan]

And that may work for all those others, it need not be how it is at VALIANT.

From the onset, VALIANT, through the Solar comic, made its rules about energy and matter very clear in adherence to the first law of thermodynamics.

Multiverses contradict that law.

We all agree that hard science is part of the backbone of VALIANT's identity. The Law of Thermodynamics would be hard science, whereas multiverses are pseudo science.

Your citation of multiverses originating at DC only make them look worse because DC back then was less grounded than Marvel (which did, eventually, introduce their own multiverse, but by then they had lost their own identity too, much like VALIANT later did).

It's not about science or fictional rules in a Solar comic that were never adhered to. Its just a convention of speech. A fictional character that has multiple iterations and exist in different fictional 'universes' is called a multiverse.

TMNT has multiple versions and iterations. I don't have to check the TMNT canon to call it a TMNT multiverse. That's just what it is based on the English language and the accepted conventions of pop culture and fiction.

Notice how the Bleeding Cool writer didn't have to check the Valiant canon to make sure they actually had a multiverse. He just knew there have been multiple reboots of the Valiant characters and called it a multiverse. Its not that complicated.

Feel free to have your own head canon explanation for everything, but multiverses are just what these things are called and that's an accepted fact across the English speaking world.

[ManofTheAtom]

And that may work for all those others, it need not be how it is at VALIANT.

From the onset, VALIANT, through the Solar comic, made its rules about energy and matter very clear in adherence to the first law of thermodynamics.

Multiverses contradict that law.

We all agree that hard science is part of the backbone of VALIANT's identity. The Law of Thermodynamics would be hard science, whereas multiverses are pseudo science.

Your citation of multiverses originating at DC only make them look worse because DC back then was less grounded than Marvel (which did, eventually, introduce their own multiverse, but by then they had lost their own identity too, much like VALIANT later did).

It's not about science or fictional rules in a Solar comic that were never adhered to. Its just a convention of speech. A fictional character that has multiple iterations and exist in different fictional 'universes' is called a multiverse.

TMNT has multiple versions and iterations. I don't have to check the TMNT canon to call it a TMNT multiverse. That's just what it is based on the English language and the accepted conventions of pop culture and fiction.

Notice how the Bleeding Cool writer didn't have to check the Valiant canon to make sure they actually had a multiverse. He just knew there have been multiple reboots of the Valiant characters and called it a multiverse. Its not that complicated.

Feel free to have your own head canon explanation for everything, but multiverses are just what these things are called and that's an accepted fact across the English speaking world.

The point is that VALIANT as established in VH 1 was not built to have a multiverse.

In Second Death, Phil didn't travel from his universe to a different one where he encountered an alternate version of himself, he traveled back in time for the simple reason that there are no other universes, just the one.

As you stated, multiverses didn't appear at VALIANT until VH 2, which is a low point in VALIANT history where they lost their identity and became a poor copy of DC and Marvel.

[Ryan]

The point is that VALIANT as established in VH 1 was not built to have a multiverse.

In Second Death, Phil didn't travel from his universe to a different one where he encountered an alternate version of himself, he traveled back in time for the simple reason that there are no other universes, just the one.

As you stated, multiverses didn't appear at VALIANT until VH 2, which is a low point in VALIANT history where they lost their identity and became a poor copy of DC and Marvel.

Cool, I'm not talking about anything that happened in the fiction. I'm talking about the conventions of speech and what its called when fictional characters have multiple iterations.

If you feel so strongly that Valiant is the exception to this rule of speech because of something from a Solar comic, you should email the Bleeding Cool writer and tell him that. Better email Alien and Kevin Vanhook too.

[Chiclo]

Wait, how do multiverses violate the first law of thermodynamics? Change in energy is equal to the quantity of heat in the system minus work?

There are scientists pushing multiverses as scientific. Equal parts fiction and science; still more likely than supersymmetry and WIMPs.

[nycjadie]

I think a multiverse is not multiple versions of stories that exist with similar or identical characters, it’s the attempt to tie it into one cohesive universe, validate them all and provide a story that traverses many of them together. Wolfman didn’t invent the concept, but he popularized it as it pertains to multiple comic book narratives. I don’t fault him. It was the job of the day. I do wonder how he would feel about how many times that plot point was used for lazy conclusion. He had to marry the universes, other people chose to.

I am not excited about a Valiant version. That is pedestrian. It’s the narrative of the moment. Already done. Stale. Boring. You can dredge up nostalgia while still making it new and/or canon.

[ManofTheAtom]

Wait, how do multiverses violate the first law of thermodynamics? Change in energy is equal to the quantity of heat in the system minus work?

There are scientists pushing multiverses as scientific. Equal parts fiction and science; still more likely than supersymmetry and WIMPs.

All the energy that exists in the universe was created with the big bang.

It's not like there's one big bang for each universe in a multiverse. There's only the one.

How do you create new energy to sustain an entirely new universe -- let alone multiple ones -- when energy cannot be created, specially when the current universe is still expanding using the finite energy supply?

When Solar split into multiples of himself, it made him weaker for a reason. They were not all the same.

Solar in his prime in the '90s was not the same as Solar in the 41st Century, by which he had split himself at least twice into the Destroyer and the Explorer.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think a multiverse is not multiple versions of stories that exist with similar or identical characters, it’s the attempt to tie it into one cohesive universe, validate them all and provide a story that traverses many of them together. Wolfman didn’t invent the concept, but he popularized it as it pertains to multiple comic book narratives. I don’t fault him. It was the job of the day. I do wonder how he would feel about how many times that plot point was used for lazy conclusion. He had to marry the universes, other people chose to.

I am not excited about a Valiant version. That is pedestrian. It’s the narrative of the moment. Already done. Stale. Boring. You can dredge up nostalgia while still making it new and/or canon.

Wolfman made it popular by killing it. Articles have been written about how it had to die. And that was in 1985.

Didio is the one that brought it back at DC, which hasn't done a single thing of it of worth to justify it.

Marvel is using it a gimmick to make up for the faults in their cinematic universe.

[ManofTheAtom]

Conceptually, VALIANT's Solar embodies the first law of thermodynamics.

From the start, it was through him that we, the readers, were told that in the VALIANT Universe energy and matter are interchangeable. That one can be changed into the other. Case in point, Phil Seleski (matter) when he became Solar (energy).

Later on, through the introduction of the Destroyer, it was shown that energy cannot be created as the same finite amount of energy that made up the whole of Solar until that point split off to make up a new being. It didn't duplicate itself; rather, it divided itself. From that point forward, Solar was at half his original power.

Then, in Rai #0, it divided again when he split off into the Explorer. From THAT point forward, Solar's power diminished by half again.

[ManofTheAtom]

The only way a multiverse can exist within the rules of the VALIANT Universe as established in VH-1 would be for the finite amount of energy that was released during the big bang to diminish each time a new universe is created.

VH-1 would be to Solar what VH-2 is to the Destroyer and VEI is to the Explorer.

When VH-2 was created, that cut the amount of energy in VH-1 by half. Then when VEI was created that halved the energy in the universe again.

The question becomes, which universe did VEI drain energy from, VH-1, VH-2, or both?

There was a VEI Quantum & Woody one-shot that involved the multiverse, so that's even MORE realities that drained energy from the three existing ones.

If that became the crux of a plot in which the VALIANT heroes have to find a way to coalesce all the energy in those disparate multiverses back into a single one before they are all destroyed, that would give merit to a VALIANT multiverse story, as well as distinguish it from those told by DC and Marvel.

[Chiclo]

Much fiction. Little science.

[Ryan]

I think a multiverse is not multiple versions of stories that exist with similar or identical characters, it’s the attempt to tie it into one cohesive universe, validate them all and provide a story that traverses many of them together. Wolfman didn’t invent the concept, but he popularized it as it pertains to multiple comic book narratives. I don’t fault him. It was the job of the day. I do wonder how he would feel about how many times that plot point was used for lazy conclusion. He had to marry the universes, other people chose to.

I am not excited about a Valiant version. That is pedestrian. It’s the narrative of the moment. Already done. Stale. Boring. You can dredge up nostalgia while still making it new and/or canon.

I think we're talking about different things here. I'm not arguing in favor of multiverse events where multiple versions of the same characters meet and interact like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Unity 2000, Spider-Verse films, Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness, etc. I agree with you guys, I'm not for Valiant doing anything like that.

All I'm saying is that Valiant IS a multiverse. All that a multiverse is is a fictional concept that describes how multiple iterations of the same characters exist but don't take place in the same fictional 'universe'. Multiple universes, a multiverse.

Like how the Batman from 1937 is not the same fictional Batman from Batman TAS, Batman TDK, Elseworlds Pirate Batman etc. etc. They're all Batman but not from the same fictional universes. The multiverse of Batman. That's all it means. It doesn't mean they have to interact with each other, that's a whole separate issue.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think a multiverse is not multiple versions of stories that exist with similar or identical characters, it’s the attempt to tie it into one cohesive universe, validate them all and provide a story that traverses many of them together. Wolfman didn’t invent the concept, but he popularized it as it pertains to multiple comic book narratives. I don’t fault him. It was the job of the day. I do wonder how he would feel about how many times that plot point was used for lazy conclusion. He had to marry the universes, other people chose to.

I am not excited about a Valiant version. That is pedestrian. It’s the narrative of the moment. Already done. Stale. Boring. You can dredge up nostalgia while still making it new and/or canon.

I think we're talking about different things here. I'm not arguing in favor of multiverse events where multiple versions of the same characters meet and interact like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Unity 2000, Spider-Verse films, Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness, etc. I agree with you guys, I'm not for Valiant doing anything like that.

All I'm saying is that Valiant IS a multiverse. All that a multiverse is is a fictional concept that describes how multiple iterations of the same characters exist but don't take place in the same fictional 'universe'. Multiple universes, a multiverse.

Like how the Batman from 1937 is not the same fictional Batman from Batman TAS, Batman TDK, Elseworlds Pirate Batman etc. etc. They're all Batman but not from the same fictional universes. The multiverse of Batman. That's all it means. It doesn't mean they have to interact with each other, that's a whole separate issue.

And the point I'm getting at is that the only reason that is is because of VH-2, which fundamentally ignored every aspect of what made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

VALIANT should have never been about multiple iterations of the same characters.

That road leads to Magnus Bull(*SQUEE*)...

[ManofTheAtom]

Much fiction. Little science.

It's science fiction, not fantasy fiction...

[Chiclo]

Much fiction. Little science.

It's science fiction, not fantasy fiction...

You make scientific sounding rules and dismiss explanations based on your rules. Where is any of this requirement that multiverses must spring from and divide a common pool of energy but not of matter (which I heard were interchangeable) established? You are ardently casting yourself in Clarke’s First Law.

If one were to divide the universe like some sort of cosmic mitosis, sure. All the energy (and matter) would have to split, but there would be no expectation for probabilistic counterparts for all our beloved heroes and villains. Multiverses are based on probabilistic differences and quantum superposition and weird extrapolations from models trying to explain counterintuitive concepts from subatomic scales, like Schrodinger’s cat, and no more than a shrug saying “there’s no reason this can’t be the same on the macroscopic level.” We have no laws of multiversal mechanics in the real world.

[Ryan]

And the point I'm getting at is that the only reason that is is because of VH-2, which fundamentally ignored every aspect of what made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

VALIANT should have never been about multiple iterations of the same characters.

That road leads to Magnus Bull(*SQUEE*)...

You're talking about an ideal world that doesn't exist, I'm talking about reality.

I also wish the rules from pre-Unity Valiant were stuck to, but that's not what happened. What about the countless times in post-Unity Valiant, VEI, DMG, and Alien comics that have broken your "hard science" rules?

You love Resurgence and yet it breaks every 'hard science' rule in the book, it's more Marvel/DC than even Marvel/DC would try to pull off

In an ideal world, Batman would still be in the same continuity from Detective #27 from 1939 and we'd be on Bruce's great(x5) grandson and every Batman appearance would fit nicely into this single continuity (universe). But that's just not the reality of how commercial fiction works, and thus we have multiverses.

[ManofTheAtom]

Much fiction. Little science.

It's science fiction, not fantasy fiction...

You make scientific sounding rules and dismiss explanations based on your rules. Where is any of this requirement that multiverses must spring from and divide a common pool of energy but not of matter (which I heard were interchangeable) established? You are ardently casting yourself in Clarke’s First Law.

If one were to divide the universe like some sort of cosmic mitosis, sure. All the energy (and matter) would have to split, but there would be no expectation for probabilistic counterparts for all our beloved heroes and villains. Multiverses are based on probabilistic differences and quantum superposition and weird extrapolations from models trying to explain counterintuitive concepts from subatomic scales, like Schrodinger’s cat, and no more than a shrug saying “there’s no reason this can’t be the same on the macroscopic level.” We have no laws of multiversal mechanics in the real world.

Of course it would be. It be the same principle applied to Solar The Destroyer and Solar The Explorer, but on a macro cosmic level as opposed to a micro individual level.

For instance, all the Magni in that one issue of VH 2 Magnus would be different versions of the same character split off from the original Gold Key/Valiant version the same way that Destroyer and Explorer split off from VALIANT's version of Solar.

[ManofTheAtom]

And the point I'm getting at is that the only reason that is is because of VH-2, which fundamentally ignored every aspect of what made VALIANT different from DC and Marvel.

VALIANT should have never been about multiple iterations of the same characters.

That road leads to Magnus Bull(*SQUEE*)...

You're talking about an ideal world that doesn't exist, I'm talking about reality.

I also wish the rules from pre-Unity Valiant were stuck to, but that's not what happened. What about the countless times in post-Unity Valiant, VEI, DMG, and Alien comics that have broken your "hard science" rules?

You love Resurgence and yet it breaks every 'hard science' rule in the book, it's more Marvel/DC than even Marvel/DC would try to pull off

In an ideal world, Batman would still be in the same continuity from Detective #27 from 1939 and we'd be on Bruce's great(x5) grandson and every Batman appearance would fit nicely into this single continuity (universe). But that's just not the reality of how commercial fiction works, and thus we have multiverses.

VH 1 should be given preference to the mistakes of VH 2.

[ManofTheAtom]

Doesn't either Phil or Doctor Solar in Second Death point out that the science in the original Gold Key Solar comics was "bad"?

That's what happened with VH-2, the science went bad.

The goal should be to restore it to how it should be.

Perception does not determine reality. Just because the characters perceive the multiverse in a certain way it does not mean that there aren't more scientifically-accurate truths about it to uncover.

[Chiclo]

Much fiction. Little science.

It's science fiction, not fantasy fiction...

You make scientific sounding rules and dismiss explanations based on your rules. Where is any of this requirement that multiverses must spring from and divide a common pool of energy but not of matter (which I heard were interchangeable) established? You are ardently casting yourself in Clarke’s First Law.

If one were to divide the universe like some sort of cosmic mitosis, sure. All the energy (and matter) would have to split, but there would be no expectation for probabilistic counterparts for all our beloved heroes and villains. Multiverses are based on probabilistic differences and quantum superposition and weird extrapolations from models trying to explain counterintuitive concepts from subatomic scales, like Schrodinger’s cat, and no more than a shrug saying “there’s no reason this can’t be the same on the macroscopic level.” We have no laws of multiversal mechanics in the real world.

Of course it would be. It be the same principle applied to Solar The Destroyer and Solar The Explorer, but on a macro cosmic level as opposed to a micro individual level.

For instance, all the Magni in that one issue of VH 2 Magnus would be different versions of the same character split off from the original Gold Key/Valiant version the same way that Destroyer and Explorer split off from VALIANT's version of Solar.

I meant in the case of universal mitosis that there would be no expectation for the counterparts because it is just splitting the bubble of a single universe into two bubbles. Like ripping a newspaper in half - you don’t get two sports sections.

I think the mitosis analogy would hold for Solar splitting off the Destroyer and the Explorer and whomever else he split off. Most of these multiverses seem to operate more on the principals of quantum superposition, where different choices lead to different universes; like that one episode of TNG where Worf keeps sliding and had kids with Deana Troi.

Is there any reason that a potential Valiant multiverse split off from a common universe with a single pool of mass-energy rather than the quantum superposition explanation?

[ManofTheAtom]

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

That's a good way to visualize how new universes are created using the same starting point and, therefore, the same finite energy source (the big bang).

[ManofTheAtom]

I meant in the case of universal mitosis that there would be no expectation for the counterparts because it is just splitting the bubble of a single universe into two bubbles. Like ripping a newspaper in half - you don’t get two sports sections.

I think the mitosis analogy would hold for Solar splitting off the Destroyer and the Explorer and whomever else he split off. Most of these multiverses seem to operate more on the principals of quantum superposition, where different choices lead to different universes; like that one episode of TNG where Worf keeps sliding and had kids with Deana Troi.

Is there any reason that a potential Valiant multiverse split off from a common universe with a single pool of mass-energy rather than the quantum superposition explanation?

We both posted about Parallels within seconds of each other!

[Chiclo]

Doesn't either Phil or Doctor Solar in Second Death point out that the science in the original Gold Key Solar comics was "bad"?

That's what happened with VH-2, the science went bad.

The goal should be to restore it to how it should be.

Perception does not determine reality. Just because the characters perceive the multiverse in a certain way it does not mean that there aren't more scientifically-accurate truths about it to uncover.

What kind of reactor needs to pump anti-protons? Was Edgewood fusing anti-matter?

Give it a few more years and the science of VH1 will be bad too. What keeps it from being worse now is that it was not too technical. The Dark Horse Doctor Solar might become bad science sooner than VH1 because the Dark Horse was more technical.

[Chiclo]

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Quantum_reality

That's a good way to visualize how new universes are created using the same starting point and, therefore, the same finite energy source (the big bang).

Do the parallel universes have have finite sources of matter?

[ManofTheAtom]

This is the image I tried to post.

Quantum_realities.png