The Diversity Discussion- Pandering or Legit Representation

[grendeljd]

I think VEI has done a fairly outstanding job of having a diverse stable of ethnicities in their books, and they've built it onto strong foundations put in place by VH1 back in the day. They don't point a finger at it, it's just there & feels natural to me. I can see how some naturally occurring development of more LGBT characters would also be good to see.

I agree with anyone here who is basically saying that making a big deal out of a characters racial or sexual background specifically is forced, & makes for poor storytelling. I'm personally a very open minded fellow, I think we all need to just get along as people regardless of our own background/upbringing. It's a global village after all.

[grendeljd]

I can also see how it's a double edged sword for companies like Marvel or DC - damned if you do, damned if you don't. But personally I can't stand ret-conning diversity into existing characters. As someone else said, these characters are largely 50+ years old now and really are somewhat out of date.

If those corporations weren't so concerned with perpetuating the status quo of their IP's, they could find better ways of injecting diversity into them - invent a new generation of characters taking up the mantels of their most popular characters, or better yet just start creating new characters again. That's largely why I don't read them anymore, they've choked the life out of them conceptually. I'll always love all my childhood favourite characters like Spider-Man, Hulk, Iron Man, XMen etc (I was more of a Marvel Zombie than a DC fan) - but I don't need to read new stories about them anymore.

[jmatt]

I agree with anyone here who is basically saying that making a big deal out of a characters racial or sexual background specifically is forced, & makes for poor storytelling.

That's it, exactly. It can't be like "Hey, here's the Gay issue where we explore the the social implications of gay culture in a superhero universe!"

It has to be understated, organic, and not prominent in any specific way. Just something a reader would notice that's not the point of the story.

Not sure if I was reading into too much, but it almost seemed like that's what they were implying in 4001AD #2, with Lula and Grace. There's a few panels where Lula remembers Grace (now dead) and I somehow came away with the perception that perhaps they were something more than friends.

It has to be that subtle.

[grendeljd]

I agree with anyone here who is basically saying that making a big deal out of a characters racial or sexual background specifically is forced, & makes for poor storytelling.

That's it, exactly. It can't be like "Hey, here's the Gay issue where we explore the the social implications of gay culture in a superhero universe!"

It has to be understated, organic, and not prominent in any specific way. Just something a reader would notice that's not the point of the story.

Not sure if I was reading into too much, but it almost seemed like that's what they were implying in 4001AD #2, with Lula and Grace. There's a few panels where Lula remembers Grace (now dead) and I somehow came away with the perception that perhaps they were something more than friends.

It has to be that subtle.

Exactly. Perfect example, I was thinking the same thing about those two characters when I read that. It's implied without being spelled out because it doesn't need to be. And they may not have even been more than friends - either way it didn't serve the story to delve into it further.

People don't go around introducing themselves to others by saying "hi, I'm gay - we need to establish that before I interact any further with you. What's your sexual preference?" I've had gay friends at various points in my life & some of them have been more forward than others, but often it just doesn't come up unless a particular social scenario arises where it becomes obvious. And at that point it ain't no big deal either.

[badlander86]

If this post is too political, please inform the Admins to take it down.

But with the tragedy that occurred in Orlando and the out pour of emotions both positive and negative, is legit representation more important than ever in the face of Homophobia, Islamophobia...etc...etc.

[Sven the Returned]

If this post is too political, please inform the Admins to take it down.

But with the tragedy that occurred in Orlando and the out pour of emotions both positive and negative, is legit representation more important than ever in the face of Homophobia, Islamophobia...etc...etc.

I prefer the words tolerance and intolerance. Everyone has some sort of phobia even with groups that he is part off.

[Chiclo]

Is diversity beginning to share the kind of quality that if you have to tell people about it, you aren't actually that thing? Like if you have to talk about how smart or powerful you are or if a woman talks about how much of a lady she is, that you aren't actually powerful or smart or lady-like? If one of the ways you describe your comic or movie or book is about how diverse it is, it is an indication that the material has lost that quality of representing different and diverse peoples naturally and organically?

I need some time to refine the language to convey my theory better.

[jeremycoe]

Is diversity beginning to share the kind of quality that if you have to tell people about it, you aren't actually that thing? Like if you have to talk about how smart or powerful you are or if a woman talks about how much of a lady she is, that you aren't actually powerful or smart or lady-like? If one of the ways you describe your comic or movie or book is about how diverse it is, it is an indication that the material has lost that quality of representing different and diverse peoples naturally and organically?

I need some time to refine the language to convey my theory better.

Kind of like when someone starts off a sentence saying "No offense, but ..." it's almost always offensive

[Watchtower]

"Legit representation" is the idea that you grant diverse representation by simply doing it. No grand message, no subtle agenda, you just do it. After all, the best thing that can be done for a minority group is to treat them as normal as any white man. So implying "We need more gay and Muslim heroes to show our love and support for those communities!", while well-intentioned, is also inherently reactionary and thus could be considered pandering.

When Dr. Mirage was first believed to have been gender-bent, the forum generally agreed that it would've liked to see the love with Carmen preserved. There was, to some extent, a desire to see a major lesbian couple headlined, but it was mainly due to wanting to keep Carmen herself preserved, and supported in part by the interesting twist Hwen and Carmen's enjoyably-sappy romance would've had as a lesbian couple. That chance was missed, and the forum rolled with the punches, but if anything pushes me to wanting to see a lesbian couple from Valiant its a combination of wanting to cash in that missed opportunity and wanting to create a counter-balance between the guy-guy duos of Archer & Armstrong and Quantum & Woody.

[bygranddesign]

I agree with anyone here who is basically saying that making a big deal out of a characters racial or sexual background specifically is forced, & makes for poor storytelling.

That's it, exactly. It can't be like "Hey, here's the Gay issue where we explore the the social implications of gay culture in a superhero universe!"

It has to be understated, organic, and not prominent in any specific way. Just something a reader would notice that's not the point of the story.

Not sure if I was reading into too much, but it almost seemed like that's what they were implying in 4001AD #2, with Lula and Grace. There's a few panels where Lula remembers Grace (now dead) and I somehow came away with the perception that perhaps they were something more than friends.

It has to be that subtle.

Why does it have to be that subtle?

I don't mind having characters and storylines being understated ... If Kris Hathaway doesn't want to be overtly expressive about her sexuality -- that's fine. But it shouldn't be a storytelling requirement for all gay characters. Torque can hang out in torquehalla and be over-the-top expressive in his heterosexuality with hot babes in both his arms ... but every gay character and every gay *possible* relationship has to always be understated and subtle?

A Story is either good or bad. Characters either ring true or they don't.

Having diversity and characters of every shape and size and personalities only makes sense in what is supposed to be a grounded superhero universe that should reflect our own world.

If Dysart want to write a "GAY" issue or something topical that deals with Xenophopia ... I'll judge it by whether its good or not. Does he bring any original perspective on the subject matter? Does it makes sense as part of the overall story and themes? Do the characters ring true?

I actually take issue with the whole premise of "pandering" as a criticism when it comes to ART. A story is either good or bad.

Marvell creates a Black Spiderman in a parallel universe ... and people come out of the woodwork crying about "political correctness gone wild" and "pandering". People who obviously won't even read the comic and judge it by its own merits. Pandering is just code for many intolerant people who can't deal with the fact that the world is changing and is diverse.

In the comic book industry there are so much diversity amongst writers, artists and creators.

If a muslim writer wants to write about a muslim superhero - i find the outrage of "political correctness" and "pandering" bizarre.

If i'm a black artist ... its reasonable to want to occasionally draw a superhero who is black.

A few prominent characters during the Zombie apocalypse on The Walking Dead turn out to be gay. Is that pandering? It would feel weird after 150+ issues if there weren't at least a few gay characters

The bottom line is that we should just be open to diversity and judge the characters and the stories by whether you enjoyed them or not.

[jeremycoe]

I agree with anyone here who is basically saying that making a big deal out of a characters racial or sexual background specifically is forced, & makes for poor storytelling.

That's it, exactly. It can't be like "Hey, here's the Gay issue where we explore the the social implications of gay culture in a superhero universe!"

It has to be understated, organic, and not prominent in any specific way. Just something a reader would notice that's not the point of the story.

Not sure if I was reading into too much, but it almost seemed like that's what they were implying in 4001AD #2, with Lula and Grace. There's a few panels where Lula remembers Grace (now dead) and I somehow came away with the perception that perhaps they were something more than friends.

It has to be that subtle.

Why does it have to be that subtle?

I don't mind having characters and storylines being understated ... If Kris Hathaway doesn't want to be overtly expressive about her sexuality -- that's fine. But it shouldn't be a storytelling requirement for all gay characters. Torque can hang out in torquehalla and be over-the-top expressive in his heterosexuality with hot babes in both his arms ... but every gay character and every gay *possible* relationship has to always be understated and subtle?

A Story is either good or bad. Characters either ring true or they don't.

Having diversity and characters of every shape and size and personalities only makes sense in what is supposed to be a grounded superhero universe that should reflect our own world.

If Dysart want to write a "GAY" issue or something topical that deals with Xenophopia ... I'll judge it by whether its good or not. Does he bring any original perspective on the subject matter? Does it makes sense as part of the overall story and themes? Do the characters ring true?

I actually take issue with the whole premise of "pandering" as a criticism when it comes to ART. A story is either good or bad.

Marvell creates a Black Spiderman in a parallel universe ... and people come out of the woodwork crying about "political correctness gone wild" and "pandering". People who obviously won't even read the comic and judge it by its own merits. Pandering is just code for many intolerant people who can't deal with the fact that the world is changing and is diverse.

In the comic book industry there are so much diversity amongst writers, artists and creators.

If a muslim writer wants to write about a muslim superhero - i find the outrage of "political correctness" and "pandering" bizarre.

If i'm a black artist ... its reasonable to want to occasionally draw a superhero who is black.

A few prominent characters during the Zombie apocalypse on The Walking Dead turn out to be gay. Is that pandering? It would feel weird after 150+ issues if there weren't at least a few gay characters

The bottom line is that we should just be open to diversity and judge the characters and the stories by whether you enjoyed them or not.

And it should be your "friend" not your "gay friend", right. I think that's the argument that was being made. It seems to me if diversity should be normal then a comic book introducing a new character who happens to be gay should just be advertised as introducing a new character. If you advertise extensively that it introduces a new, gay character - then maybe that's pandering. If it should be normal, then make it normal. Faith is a cool character - who just happens to be a bit on the large size. What's important is that she's cool, not her size.

[jmatt]

And it should be your "friend" not your "gay friend", right. I think that's the argument that was being made. It seems to me if diversity should be normal then a comic book introducing a new character who happens to be gay should just be advertised as introducing a new character. If you advertise extensively that it introduces a new, gay character - then maybe that's pandering. If it should be normal, then make it normal. Faith is a cool character - who just happens to be a bit on the large size. What's important is that she's cool, not her size.

Well stated.

There's a fine line between a good story and lecturing. I don't need the latter.

[dornwolf]

I don't mind diversity in comics at all. I grew up reading comics in the 80's and 90's when female heroes were right there alongside their male counterparts (even if they were oversexualized and with horrible back breaking art by Liefeld). There were even a couple characters that were brought 'out of the closet' like Quicksilver and Northstar. No problems with any of it.

I detest pandering though. Pushing a quota just so that all the right 'politically correct' slots are filled and accounted for is just reverse discrimination. Kris in Harbinger was handled perfectly. There were hints here and there, but they didn't reveal her actual sexuality until 23 or 24 issues in. Not that it was hidden. It just never came up because it never needed to in the story. That's my gold standard for how to handle diversity. Let it be there as it serves the story, not as a primary reason for the character to exist in the first place. Just claiming that a character that's been around forever is now, or has always been, gay (like Iceman) is a weaker form of this, depending on how much cannon to the contrary there is.

The next most acceptable example of diversity (for me) would be if they replace an existing character with a new one, where the 'superpowers' associated with the character are possible to pass on from one person to another like a Green Lantern power ring, or a suit of X-O armor. When they created a new Green Lantern that was a Muslim guy, I wasn't too bothered, because anybody can get a Green Lantern ring and take up the job. It bugged me some that the Muslim Green Lantern had that designation as part of the advertising campaign for the first issue. When you have to hang a lampshade on it and shake the pom-poms about it, then it's pandering. Just let it be part of the character in the story where appropriate (again, see how Dysart did it with Kris in Harbinger for the perfect example).

If the stories are good and the fan base likes it enough to keep it going, then more power to them.

What really bugs me is when they take a unique character that isn't easily swapped out logically, and change them into somebody else, then totally shove in as many 'diversity' tags as they can fit. I know it'll *SQUEE* off a lot of people because he's so popular with the diversity pushing crowd, but the Miles Morales Spider-Man falls into this category for me. I know it's an alternate reality version, but for awhile they tried to make him the one and only Spider-Man, instead of just one of the several alternate reality Spider-(M/Gw)ens. This also applies to totally rewriting an icon like Captain America to say that despite decades of cannon, he was really a Hydra agent all along. Revising a central portion of a characters core for a gimmick that is obviously going to be undone in short order is the ultimate in idiotic pandering/gimmicks (also see "The Death of Wolverine").

Have real diversity with new characters or with characters that it makes sense to suddenly say they've always been X, Y, or Z. Don't go and try to remake Superman into a Muslim black lesbian woman.

Worded better than I'd ever be able to word it myself. I'm all for new characters not what Marvels been doing it's painfully pandering to the twitter/tumblr generation of people who don't by the books in massive quantities to make it you know worth while.I wish personally DC would stop dropping the ball on Milestone every single time. I get they stick with them due to movie/tv/game possibilities but damn.

[Sven the Returned]

I agree with anyone here who is basically saying that making a big deal out of a characters racial or sexual background specifically is forced, & makes for poor storytelling.

That's it, exactly. It can't be like "Hey, here's the Gay issue where we explore the the social implications of gay culture in a superhero universe!"

It has to be understated, organic, and not prominent in any specific way. Just something a reader would notice that's not the point of the story.

Not sure if I was reading into too much, but it almost seemed like that's what they were implying in 4001AD #2, with Lula and Grace. There's a few panels where Lula remembers Grace (now dead) and I somehow came away with the perception that perhaps they were something more than friends.

It has to be that subtle.

Why does it have to be that subtle?

I don't mind having characters and storylines being understated ... If Kris Hathaway doesn't want to be overtly expressive about her sexuality -- that's fine. But it shouldn't be a storytelling requirement for all gay characters. Torque can hang out in torquehalla and be over-the-top expressive in his heterosexuality with hot babes in both his arms ... but every gay character and every gay *possible* relationship has to always be understated and subtle?

A Story is either good or bad. Characters either ring true or they don't.

Having diversity and characters of every shape and size and personalities only makes sense in what is supposed to be a grounded superhero universe that should reflect our own world.

If Dysart want to write a "GAY" issue or something topical that deals with Xenophopia ... I'll judge it by whether its good or not. Does he bring any original perspective on the subject matter? Does it makes sense as part of the overall story and themes? Do the characters ring true?

I actually take issue with the whole premise of "pandering" as a criticism when it comes to ART. A story is either good or bad.

Marvell creates a Black Spiderman in a parallel universe ... and people come out of the woodwork crying about "political correctness gone wild" and "pandering". People who obviously won't even read the comic and judge it by its own merits. Pandering is just code for many intolerant people who can't deal with the fact that the world is changing and is diverse.

In the comic book industry there are so much diversity amongst writers, artists and creators.

If a muslim writer wants to write about a muslim superhero - i find the outrage of "political correctness" and "pandering" bizarre.

If i'm a black artist ... its reasonable to want to occasionally draw a superhero who is black.

A few prominent characters during the Zombie apocalypse on The Walking Dead turn out to be gay. Is that pandering? It would feel weird after 150+ issues if there weren't at least a few gay characters

The bottom line is that we should just be open to diversity and judge the characters and the stories by whether you enjoyed them or not.

If comic book writers are such an intelectually diverse group? Based on what? I bet there are far more open identity politics loving lefties than anything else. There would not be a pc outcry if the politically vocal writers would not act like smug liberal aholes.

[jmatt]

Torque can hang out in torquehalla and be over-the-top expressive in his heterosexuality with hot babes in both his arms ... but every gay character and every gay *possible* relationship has to always be understated and subtle?

The point of that story was what a sexist, horny a-hole Torque could be if he got to live out his fantasy. Would you like to see a gay character written like that?

People would be howling with outrage that he wasn't written like a normal, decent human being.

But since we're exploring the idea of double standards, you'll note that there was no outrage at Torque being portrayed as such.

This is an honest question for the thread, not a taunt or anything: Why is that? Why can a heterosexual male be portrayed as such, but a non-heterosexual male character would never be portrayed that way?

[bygranddesign]

The point of that story was what a sexist, horny a-hole Torque could be if he got to live out his fantasy. Would you like to see a gay character written like that?

Sure ... Why not? Sounds interesting. Your the one who said it needs to be subtle

People would be howling with outrage that he wasn't written like a normal, decent human being.

No .. Not really. I have seen gay/bi/lesbian characters portrayed in many different ways in books, TV shows, movies .... It's infinitely more interesting when they are portrayed as just as flawed as the rest of us. I'm not interested in seeing "normal" anything. I think most people appreciate honest portrayals.

I would love the idea of a "villain" character who turned out to be gay. Why not?

This is beyond silly. It would not be the least bit shocking to me or controversial.

If so called SJW people had a problem with it - As long as there is no ignorant sweeping generalizations(which would be bad writing) and it's a well written character - I would defend the writer. As would anyone who appreciates good writing.

But since we're exploring the idea of double standards, you'll note that there was no outrage at Torque being portrayed as such.

You are the one who feels there should be a certain way in which gay characters/relationships should be portrayed. That's the double standard. I have no problem with how torque is portrayed - he's written brilliantly. I brought it up to illustrate a point - that we didn't have a problem with his characterization as long as the character was well written.

This is an honest question for the thread, not a taunt or anything: Why is that? Why can a heterosexual male be portrayed as such, but a non-heterosexual male character would never be portrayed that way?

[/quote]

in popular culture? There are gay people portrayed as extremely flawed, over the top flamboyant and flat out despicable plenty of times.

I'm watching downton abbey right now - probably the most irritating, flawed character is the gay guy Thomas.

Varying degrees of flawed gay characters on HBO shows like OZ, The Wire, 6 feet under, game of thrones ...etc.

Flamboyant, sexually forward gay characters are all over popular culture through the years.

Jack Harkness is described as a pansexual James Bond.

Like I said ... It's either good writing or its bad writing. That's what is important

If it's good ... It will drown out any mind numbing critics.

[Sven the Returned]

in popular culture? There are gay people portrayed as extremely flawed, over the top flamboyant and flat out despicable plenty of times.

I'm watching downton abbey right now - probably the most irritating, flawed character is the gay guy Thomas.

Varying degrees of flawed gay characters on HBO shows like OZ, The Wire, 6 feet under, game of thrones ...etc.

Flamboyant, sexually forward gay characters are all over popular culture through the years.

Jack Harkness is described as a pansexual James Bond.

Like I said ... It's either good writing or its bad writing. That's what is important

If it's good ... It will drown out any mind numbing critics.

I make the point not to watch a lot of tv shows while they are coming out, usually watch them after they were wrapped up. All the HBO shows you mentioned are filled with flawed characters. Not familiar with Dr Who and Downtown Abbey. I do not notice negative gay stereotypes in stuff coming out today.

[bygranddesign]

I wouldn't want to to see negative or positive stereotypes reinforced with any group

Anything that creates a pre-conceived notion about a whole group of people is wrong ...and should be rejected.

[DirtbagSailor]

I personally disliked it when news and media outlets announced:

"Marvel will announce next month that a MAJOR character is gay..."

It basically turned it into a marketing and publicity tool that exploited a sexual preference to increase sales.

[Sven the Returned]

I wouldn't want to to see negative or positive stereotypes reinforced with any group

Anything that creates a pre-conceived notion about a whole group of people is wrong ...and should be rejected.

Unless a minor character is on a tv show if you make him gay, a womaniser, a virging etc... It going to come of that way because of the screen time.

[bygranddesign]

I wouldn't want to to see negative or positive stereotypes reinforced with any group

Anything that creates a pre-conceived notion about a whole group of people is wrong ...and should be rejected.

Unless a minor character is on a tv show if you make him gay, a womaniser, a virging etc... It going to come of that way because of the screen time.

I wouldn't draw any conclusions from a single characters short appearance (unless its blatantly offensive)

If a show shows an episode of a terrorist as a muslim .. I don't think there is a need to balance things out and show a muslim who is the complete opposite. That actually would feel like pandering to me if it didn't ring true and you were just trying to balance out a score card.

But a pattern of storytelling in which you show muslims as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers would feel like an agenda -- a bias that feeds into a stereotype that is harmful to a whole group of people.

Just to bring this back to Valiant related --- I think they have done a great job of creating diversity in their universe. But more diversity is definitely welcomed by me and it doesn't need to feel forced. And it definitely doesn't need to be marketed at all.

[jmatt]

The point of that story was what a sexist, horny a-hole Torque could be if he got to live out his fantasy. Would you like to see a gay character written like that?

Sure ... Why not? Sounds interesting. Your the one who said it needs to be subtle

I don't disagree, it would be interesting. But a lot of other people might take offense. My assertion that it should be subtle is based on my not wanting see that aspect be the point of the character or the story.

VH1's Ken Clarkson was the perfect portrayal. Ken was gay, but that's not what defined the character. He was Aric's right hand man, sometimes loyal, sometimes not. He was avaricious to a degree, but also smart and cunning. Oh, and he happened to be gay. That, to me, is subtle. Not hidden, nor tiptoed around. But not the point.

I dunno, perhaps we agree?

[bygranddesign]

The point of that story was what a sexist, horny a-hole Torque could be if he got to live out his fantasy. Would you like to see a gay character written like that?

Sure ... Why not? Sounds interesting. Your the one who said it needs to be subtle

I don't disagree, it would be interesting. But a lot of other people might take offense. My assertion that it should be subtle is based on my not wanting see that aspect be the point of the character or the story.

VH1's Ken Clarkson was the perfect portrayal. Ken was gay, but that's not what defined the character. He was Aric's right hand man, sometimes loyal, sometimes not. He was avaricious to a degree, but also smart and cunning. Oh, and he happened to be gay. That, to me, is subtle. Not hidden, nor tiptoed around. But not the point.

I dunno, perhaps we agree?

Agreed. I always liked that character.

I think there are many ways ways to portray a character (who happens to be gay) ... And Ken was a great character.

I wish he was used in VEI.

[Watchtower]

Admittedly, a lot of the concern regarding diversity is a bigger deal in mediums like film and video games, between the writers and executives failing to address those concerns (due to ineptitude, ignorance, intolerance, or some combination of the three) and raging fanboys flailing at the sight of any shift in the status quo.

Generally, I've personally found the comic book industry to be a lot better handled on both fronts, with only the really major cases garnering backlash (RIP Dead Drop).

[Sven the Returned]

Admittedly, a lot of the concern regarding diversity is a bigger deal in mediums like film and video games, between the writers and executives failing to address those concerns (due to ineptitude, ignorance, intolerance, or some combination of the three) and raging fanboys flailing at the sight of any shift in the status quo.

Generally, I've personally found the comic book industry to be a lot better handled on both fronts, with only the really major cases garnering backlash (RIP Dead Drop).

What? There is constant culture war bs when it comes to the big 2. I don't see why gamers should be happy their press embracing something as unpopular as feminism.