Divinity 1-4 assessment

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:58 am

jmatt wrote:
grendeljd wrote:I had a thought about the way the series wrapped up that I don't think has been expressed here yet.

... but then he understood that it wasn't what any of them wanted. I think he came to understand how they saw him, feared what he could be & maybe recognized that the best solution was to allow them the comfort of having suceeded in containing him.
That would explain the "What they want is me" line. It reads as if he is finally realizing that their desire to battle and defeat him is greater than whatever else he believed they desired, but what he actually meant was that he was going to capitulate and allow himself to be captured. That's why the final fight wasn't much of a fight at all.

This is interesting storytelling but it's bad writing. And we see this over and over again in Valiant books where we sit in these threads trying to figure out what actually happened (recent X-O/Shanhara revelations, the BS/Kay nanite 'removal', Aric not flying in DD, etc).

When I get to the end of an issue of Astro City I am never confused about what I just read. I don't have to postulate with a dozen other people as to what it meant.

This could have been so easy. Move that line to the end of the issue, after he parted ways with Eva and Anya and was depressed over his failed 'mission parameters'. Then: "What they want is me. And I will let them have it. This mission is over."

Totally agreed. There are too many 'blank spots' in the writing too often for this reader. Some explain things very well such as FVL and Dysart. However, for me Kindt too often (but not always) leaves those gaps. What i find more dissatisfying is that his Ninjak stuff is very neatly told, so the possibility for tighter execution exists.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:00 am

grendeljd wrote:...If you leave readers constantly underwhelmed or confused because they aren't picking up on the subtle (or visually implied) elements of your story, maybe it's time to spell it out just a little more.

Totally agreed. It is effectively becoming a trope of *some* VEI work, and an increasingly overused one in my opinion.

grendeljd · Post by **grendeljd** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:48 pm

jmatt wrote:
grendeljd wrote:I think there is a careful balance to be struck between words & images, and some writers are going to be better than others at finding that sweet spot. I'm not even trying to point a finger at any writer in particular here - I'm not as disgruntled with Matt Kindt's writing as a few others are.
Yeah, and I don't mean to be a curmudgeon about everything. But more clarity was only a few words away.

And thanks for your insight, it helped me understand the book a bit more, and why he's not fighting against his containment.

Thanks, jmatt - glad I'm not completely full of hot air

I had to read it a second time before some of those ideas started to percolate for me - I too, was a little disappointed with the seemingly simple, anti-climactic finale after my first read through. It really feels like it's only a few more words away from being clearer, as you said - which for me is not a major flaw in the work.

I'm really looking forward to his appearance in Imperium at the hands of Josh Dysart. Hawkeyeps had another good insight into the character during our VCR episode discussing issue 4, he was talking about how naive Abram is. He may have become a divine godlike being, but his personality is still essentially a very young man who was raised under a communist ideal regime.

He didn't get to experience enough of a life to really mature & formulate his own world view before all this happened to him, regardless of how much he aged on the journey. He was basically isolated during that time, and even with all those broadcasts he saw from earth to think about, he had no one to bounce his thoughts & reactions off of. Nothing except how he was raised to use in shaping his own moral code.

In that relatively pliable state of mind & maturity, imagine how easy it may be for Harada to come along & manipulate him towards his own goals. It could be a game changing couple of issues...

grendeljd · Post by **grendeljd** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:57 pm

leonmallett wrote:
grendeljd wrote:...If you leave readers constantly underwhelmed or confused because they aren't picking up on the subtle (or visually implied) elements of your story, maybe it's time to spell it out just a little more.
Totally agreed. It is effectively becoming a trope of *some* VEI work, and an increasingly overused one in my opinion.

Minimizing your word count as the driving force behind your storytelling technique in comics is not an approach that I'm a fan of. In any comic, I'm not just looking at VEI.

In the case of Divinity, I think it's fair to point out that at least there was a lot of narration used as well as regular conversation in word balloons between the characters. I really liked seeing/reading that. It's a good storytelling tool to not only rely on said-out-loud conversations allngside the artwork to tell the story. That is essentially treating the comic medium like its just a reflection of the film/TV medium, and ignores the inherent power of comics specifically as their own unique storytelling form. So, kudos for that in my book

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:37 pm

grendeljd wrote:In the case of Divinity, I think it's fair to point out that at least there was a lot of narration used as well as regular conversation in word balloons between the characters. I really liked seeing/reading that. It's a good storytelling tool to not only rely on said-out-loud conversations allngside the artwork to tell the story.

Agreed, the narration and dialogue was sufficient throughout, with that one exception.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:46 pm

jmatt wrote:
grendeljd wrote:In the case of Divinity, I think it's fair to point out that at least there was a lot of narration used as well as regular conversation in word balloons between the characters. I really liked seeing/reading that. It's a good storytelling tool to not only rely on said-out-loud conversations allngside the artwork to tell the story.
Agreed, the narration and dialogue was sufficient throughout, with that one exception.

I'd argue there was more than one under-cooked, under-explained concept in there.

geocarr · Post by **geocarr** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:15 pm

grendeljd wrote:...Hawkeyeps had another good insight into the character during our VCR episode discussing issue 4, he was talking about how naive Abram is. He may have become a divine godlike being, but his personality is still essentially a very young man who was raised under a communist ideal regime.

He didn't get to experience enough of a life to really mature & formulate his own world view before all this happened to him, regardless of how much he aged on the journey. He was basically isolated during that time, and even with all those broadcasts he saw from earth to think about, he had no one to bounce his thoughts & reactions off of. Nothing except how he was raised to use in shaping his own moral code.

In that relatively pliable state of mind & maturity, imagine how easy it may be for Harada to come along & manipulate him towards his own goals. It could be a game changing couple of issues...

Excellent point! Thanks for that!

jmatt · Post by **jmatt** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:29 pm

leonmallett wrote:
jmatt wrote:
grendeljd wrote:In the case of Divinity, I think it's fair to point out that at least there was a lot of narration used as well as regular conversation in word balloons between the characters. I really liked seeing/reading that. It's a good storytelling tool to not only rely on said-out-loud conversations allngside the artwork to tell the story.
Agreed, the narration and dialogue was sufficient throughout, with that one exception.
I'd argue there was more than one under-cooked, under-explained concept in there.

I agree that there are more answers to be had, but overall it read well.

grendeljd · Post by **grendeljd** » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:26 pm

geocarr wrote:
grendeljd wrote:...Hawkeyeps had another good insight into the character during our VCR episode discussing issue 4, he was talking about how naive Abram is. He may have become a divine godlike being, but his personality is still essentially a very young man who was raised under a communist ideal regime.

He didn't get to experience enough of a life to really mature & formulate his own world view before all this happened to him, regardless of how much he aged on the journey. He was basically isolated during that time, and even with all those broadcasts he saw from earth to think about, he had no one to bounce his thoughts & reactions off of. Nothing except how he was raised to use in shaping his own moral code.

In that relatively pliable state of mind & maturity, imagine how easy it may be for Harada to come along & manipulate him towards his own goals. It could be a game changing couple of issues...
Excellent point! Thanks for that!

agent_graves · Post by **agent_graves** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:15 pm

Ricomortis wrote:I liked the entire series.

At first I was let down at the "anticlimactic" ending. Then I pondered. Then I slept. Had a Spark. Then I pondered some more.

I think everyone is reading to much into it. I think Kindt was trying to focus more on the attachment to his family. The emotional aspect of missing your wife and child. The battle was not important, only to create a simple way to contain him while Kindt can create the family connection, a way to show the instability of the character without it just being a madman destroying everything. I find it very intriguing.

Then again...

I feel the same, it's really about his family ties, they are his inspiration, his reasoning for wanting to return home. With that being said, I do understand where JMatt is coming from with his assessment, I think he made some great points, the biggest flaw for me with Divinity, is the timing of the sequal, 11 months inbetween Vol 1 & 2, is way to long, with all the lingering questions pertainng to his origin, and powerset. Divinity will appear in BOD, and Imperium #7 & #8, if anything, his powerset should be on display there, who knows, there could be some mentioning about his origin, that wasn't covered in the mini. As someone else mentioned up thread, a Divinity #0, would really be nice, flesh out that meeting with the Unknown a bit...

agent_graves · Post by **agent_graves** » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:18 pm

Tony_H wrote:Man, he's an African-Russian whose government sent out to die for science at the apex of Western power in the mid-20th century, and who lost his ability to tell time from space because he was overwhelmed by a new conscoiusness given to him by a sentience without body or politics, and his origin story ended with the strongest heroes on earth leaving him buried in the planet's crust like a seed: he's the best new comic character created in 40 years. People should be paying $300 for variants of his #1.

whovian · Post by **whovian** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:34 am

I thought the series was great, despite being a bit underwhelmed. It was the involvement of the other Valiant heroes that disappointed me, as I wanted this to be about the star character, not an event that involves other Valiant characters. Unavoidable under the circumstances I suppose...

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:29 pm

whovian wrote:I thought the series was great, despite being a bit underwhelmed. It was the involvement of the other Valiant heroes that disappointed me, as I wanted this to be about the star character, not an event that involves other Valiant characters. Unavoidable under the circumstances I suppose...

You say it was great, yet feel underwhelmed? Was it, or can it, be truly so great yet still leave you feeling underwhelmed considering it is the sum of its parts?

Just curious and not trying to troll.

Ricomortis · Post by **Ricomortis** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:22 am

leonmallett wrote:
whovian wrote:I thought the series was great, despite being a bit underwhelmed. It was the involvement of the other Valiant heroes that disappointed me, as I wanted this to be about the star character, not an event that involves other Valiant characters. Unavoidable under the circumstances I suppose...
You say it was great, yet feel underwhelmed? Was it, or can it, be truly so great yet still leave you feeling underwhelmed considering it is the sum of its parts?

Just curious and not trying to troll.

Yes I think so, IMO

The whole concept and story up to the quick throw him in a ball and put him underground, was absolutely intriguing. IMO, the intriguing parts and potential of this character WAY outweigh any feeling of "underwhelmed" I may have felt.

Rico

possumgrease · Post by **possumgrease** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:27 am

I felt I didn't get enough story to really weigh in too much on it. There were lots of things I liked, but it almost felt like a preview and not a whole tale.

leonmallett · Post by **leonmallett** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:05 am

Ricomortis wrote:
leonmallett wrote:
whovian wrote:I thought the series was great, despite being a bit underwhelmed. It was the involvement of the other Valiant heroes that disappointed me, as I wanted this to be about the star character, not an event that involves other Valiant characters. Unavoidable under the circumstances I suppose...
You say it was great, yet feel underwhelmed? Was it, or can it, be truly so great yet still leave you feeling underwhelmed considering it is the sum of its parts?

Just curious and not trying to troll.
Yes I think so, IMO

The whole concept and story up to the quick throw him in a ball and put him underground, was absolutely intriguing. IMO, the intriguing parts and potential of this character WAY outweigh any feeling of "underwhelmed" I may have felt.

Rico

Understood.

ChiptheRipper · Post by **ChiptheRipper** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:01 am

Sorry if this is late, and everyone else is done discussing, I just wanted to post some thoughts

.

This might be my favorite thing Valiant has put out so far. I definitely enjoyed the circle motif that runs through all the issues. I think it kind of help represents Divinity's emotional isolation. He is alone deep in space, trapped in his little pod. But what he has gone through has made him so far from human, he can't really connect even when he finally gets back to Earth. His prison pod at the end is also a perfect circle, and I think that shows how even among humans, Divinity is still alone. No one can begin to comprehend his thought process, after all this time and all those billions of miles, he is still the Other. I also think the recurring circles are representative of how Divinity perceives time. Hypothetically (until his powers are explained in more retail and we can be certain), can't he not only flip the pages of his book back to watch past events, but also "skip ahead" in his book to see what will be? So to him time is not a straight line with a beginning, middle, and end, it's a perfect circle of events that he can view at anytime. Dark stuff, but amazing character development.

Also, did anyone else get MAJOR Dr.Manhattan vibes from this?

I loved it all, I only have minor gripes that it happened too fast, but that seems to be a running theme in the 4 issue minis. I think Kindt could have stretched this out for at least a couple more issues and really explained the fight scene against Unity a little better (Why the heck is Ninjak karate kicking Gilad in the face? Isn't he just throwing a bolo or smoke bomb, why did he need to do a jumping kick to the left to achieve that?

) , but other than that it was great. Can't wait for Divinity 2!!!!

greg · Post by **greg** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:17 am

ChiptheRipper wrote:Can't wait for Divinity 2!!!!

Don't skip Imperium #7

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:59 pm

ChiptheRipper wrote:Why the heck is Ninjak karate kicking Gilad in the face? Isn't he just throwing a bolo or smoke bomb, why did he need to do a jumping kick to the left to achieve that?

That's a really good point... What was going on there? Everyone else is throwing everything they have at Divinity, and Ninjak is jump kicking to the left for some reason.

Watchtower · Post by **Watchtower** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:49 pm

Just managed to read through it, and I overall liked it. I understand the criticisms of it being anti-climactic, but I think that falls into the trap of thinking this is a standard comic event with a big finishing battle. The whole focus is clearly on Divinity's character arc, with Unity's involvment being more a case of just grounding him into the Valiant Universe.

I do agree that there are some vague spots; how much of Divinity's talk with his wife and daughter comes from whatever Livewire was doing, him suddenly having two additional comrades who don't really do anything, the very nature of him obtaining his powers, etc. It seems very deliberately done, but a little extra clarity would be nice.

I would advise people here to really make sure you've read the book before jumping on here though. I've seen books destroyed by people misinterpreting key details and despising the conclusions they come to. Audience expectation is a powerful thing.

greg · Post by **greg** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:07 am

Watchtower wrote:The whole focus is clearly on Divinity's character arc, with Unity's involvment being more a case of just grounding him into the Valiant Universe.

Pun intended?

Watchtower · Post by **Watchtower** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:54 pm

greg wrote:
Watchtower wrote:The whole focus is clearly on Divinity's character arc, with Unity's involvment being more a case of just grounding him into the Valiant Universe.
Pun intended?

The best puns are the ones that slip right by you.

zachquam · Post by **zachquam** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:02 pm

I just read Divinity for the first time about two days ago and I really liked it. I can see why some people think its mediocre though. I'm new to Matt Kindt's writing pretty much. The only other thing I've read of his was Frankenstein agent of shade, which I enjoyed. Is his Ninjak any good? I like what he's done with him in Unity (Just read the first volume of Unity a couple of days ago too). I apologize if i'm annoying anybody with my questions. I don't have many comics friends to talk to about books, even less to talk to about Valiant.

Tony_H · Post by **Tony_H** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:12 pm

zachquam wrote:I just read Divinity for the first time about two days ago and I really liked it. I can see why some people think its mediocre though. I'm new to Matt Kindt's writing pretty much. The only other thing I've read of his was Frankenstein agent of shade, which I enjoyed. Is his Ninjak any good? I like what he's done with him in Unity (Just read the first volume of Unity a couple of days ago too). I apologize if i'm annoying anybody with my questions. I don't have many comics friends to talk to about books, even less to talk to about Valiant.

Ninjak is excellent, Zach. I think a lot of VEI readers might say that's his best long-term Valiant title...eh, a lot would vote for Rai, too. With either series, I'd recommend beginning at the beginning, so you can keep the story (reasonably) straight in your head!

zachquam · Post by **zachquam** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:33 pm

Tony_H wrote:
zachquam wrote:I just read Divinity for the first time about two days ago and I really liked it. I can see why some people think its mediocre though. I'm new to Matt Kindt's writing pretty much. The only other thing I've read of his was Frankenstein agent of shade, which I enjoyed. Is his Ninjak any good? I like what he's done with him in Unity (Just read the first volume of Unity a couple of days ago too). I apologize if i'm annoying anybody with my questions. I don't have many comics friends to talk to about books, even less to talk to about Valiant.
Ninjak is excellent, Zach. I think a lot of VEI readers might say that's his best long-term Valiant title...eh, a lot would vote for Rai, too. With either series, I'd recommend beginning at the beginning, so you can keep the story (reasonably) straight in your head!

I keep forgetting about Rai. I'm going to have to pick up the first two trades. Did Rai go on hiatus? The numbering seems lower than it should be.

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