Valiant Covers

[paradise]

VALIANT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEFECTS YOU ARE SEEING NOR DO THEY HAVE ABILITY TO AFFECT ANY CHANGES ON HOW PRINTER PRINTS OR PACKAGES, HOW SHIPPER SHIPS TO DIAMOND, HOW DIAMOND PACKS AND SHIPS THE PRODUCT TO THE RETAILER, AND HOW EACH INDIVIDUAL RETAILER DISTRIBUTES THE PRODUCT TO YOU.

I disagree, this is printing damage not handling damage-

I don't know what you disagree with, my statement starts with VEI .... NOR DO THEY HAVE ABILITY TO AFFECT CHANGES ON HOW PRINTER PRINTS...

IF there was a line wide problem with that issue, it's a printer issue, not VEI issue. VEI, like any publisher who this happens to, will decide whether to reprint the issue or not. I doubt they will do it, because while YES there is a collector base, most people who buy their books are readers, who do not care. I personally read it and did not see an issue. Did not notice it. My store managers did not notice it as a problem to report damages to Diamond. So either it was not on our issues, or it was not a big issue (photos tend to exaggerate these type of issues). It could be regional or just by luck a few of you got those books, because a printer hick up created it on a few hundred copies.

What I am saying is that you, (not you personally, but as a group YOU) are blaming VEI for something they can't control. Sure they could switch to another printer, but logistics of that are scary, and I am sure they have reasons why they are using this particular printer. There are only a couple of printers that print comics. A new publisher doesn't have a lot of choices. They can only negotiate so much with their numbers. It's not like it's Marvel or DC printing millions of copies.

Also, most of the problems described above in this thread, are corner bends and spine creases. Those are 100% packing, shipping and picking issues. You guys need to ask your LFS owners to volunteer one day to unpack Diamond boxes. You will never blame VEI again. And it's not even Diamond's fault either, they have to pack and ship a certain way to minimize cost to their clients, store owners. Overall they do a good job. But it's not a perfect method. The boxes are almost exact size as the comics, which makes comics bang corners against the box, specially if the books are on top, where nothing weighs down on them. They can't be filled to the top, because any damage would damage the whole box. So they put paper on top, which means the books are lose inside the box, and get creases from jumping up and down during transport. Not every book is the same size, which leads to things sliding inside the box. Retailers damage a lot of books by removing them from those perfect boxes that have no space to put your hand to remove the books. That creates a ton of creases. Wire shelves damage corners all the time. There are 100s of reasons why it happens.

The point is, the reason you guys think it's ONLY Valiant, is because Valiant fans are hyper-focused on Valiant. The reason you think Marvel and DC books are better is because you see only a tiny minority of those books. Most of them are packed away for subscribers before you even see them, or sold to patrons. For every copy of RAI a store sells, they sell 20 Amazing Spider-Man, and you don't ever get to see them.

[Intrepidxc]

VALIANT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEFECTS YOU ARE SEEING NOR DO THEY HAVE ABILITY TO AFFECT ANY CHANGES ON HOW PRINTER PRINTS OR PACKAGES, HOW SHIPPER SHIPS TO DIAMOND, HOW DIAMOND PACKS AND SHIPS THE PRODUCT TO THE RETAILER, AND HOW EACH INDIVIDUAL RETAILER DISTRIBUTES THE PRODUCT TO YOU.

I disagree, this is printing damage not handling damage-

I don't know what you disagree with, my statement starts with VEI .... NOR DO THEY HAVE ABILITY TO AFFECT CHANGES ON HOW PRINTER PRINTS...

IF there was a line wide problem with that issue, it's a printer issue, not VEI issue. VEI, like any publisher who this happens to, will decide whether to reprint the issue or not. I doubt they will do it, because while YES there is a collector base, most people who buy their books are readers, who do not care. I personally read it and did not see an issue. Did not notice it. My store managers did not notice it as a problem to report damages to Diamond. So either it was not on our issues, or it was not a big issue (photos tend to exaggerate these type of issues). It could be regional or just by luck a few of you got those books, because a printer hick up created it on a few hundred copies.

What I am saying is that you, (not you personally, but as a group YOU) are blaming VEI for something they can't control. Sure they could switch to another printer, but logistics of that are scary, and I am sure they have reasons why they are using this particular printer. There are only a couple of printers that print comics. A new publisher doesn't have a lot of choices. They can only negotiate so much with their numbers. It's not like it's Marvel or DC printing millions of copies.

Also, most of the problems described above in this thread, are corner bends and spine creases. Those are 100% packing, shipping and picking issues. You guys need to ask your LFS owners to volunteer one day to unpack Diamond boxes. You will never blame VEI again. And it's not even Diamond's fault either, they have to pack and ship a certain way to minimize cost to their clients, store owners. Overall they do a good job. But it's not a perfect method. The boxes are almost exact size as the comics, which makes comics bang corners against the box, specially if the books are on top, where nothing weighs down on them. They can't be filled to the top, because any damage would damage the whole box. So they put paper on top, which means the books are lose inside the box, and get creases from jumping up and down during transport. Not every book is the same size, which leads to things sliding inside the box. Retailers damage a lot of books by removing them from those perfect boxes that have no space to put your hand to remove the books. That creates a ton of creases. Wire shelves damage corners all the time. There are 100s of reasons why it happens.

The point is, the reason you guys think it's ONLY Valiant, is because Valiant fans are hyper-focused on Valiant. The reason you think Marvel and DC books are better is because you see only a tiny minority of those books. Most of them are packed away for subscribers before you even see them, or sold to patrons. For every copy of RAI a store sells, they sell 20 Amazing Spider-Man, and you don't ever get to see them.

I hear what you're saying Ed, but the VEI titles I receive from your shop are in far better condition than those I see at my LCS. I'm guessing your staff handles the books with more care than my LCS and your books arrive in better condition because you order more volume. Just saying!

I really don't care about condition for my readers. The only time I care about condition is the variants. The only VEI variants that I've been really butt hurt about are the 1:20 and 1:25 throwback variants. Every single one I've seen has huge spine creases, and I really wanted to slab the throwback variants.

BREAK...

To everyone else I don't usually see the systemic problems many of you talk about. At least in the DC area most of the VEI covers don't reflect these cover problems. Where are the printers located? Maybe it's a factor of distance traveled while shipping? It would be interesting to setup some kind of quantitative study to determine if there is anything we can correlate to the cover problems.

[lorddunlow]

Ed, the majority of my pull list is non-VEI (lots of Image and some Marvel). One book I get (Umbral), I literally get the only copy the store orders. Only VEI books have these issues at my LCS. I can't believe that it is merely coincidence.

My LCS does damage it's fair share of all my comics , but these crinkled pages like hawkeyeps posted pictures of only occur with VEI. The problem is much better, but it is still occurring occasionally.

[nycjadie]

I have to agree with Dunlow. I've never seen these types of issues with other publishers, after purchasing and subbing comics for a long time. Valiant pays publishers. They have some say in the process. It might not be as strong as Marvel or DC, but other small publishers don't seem to have this problem (e.g. Fantagraphics, Top Shelf, Image (if you count that as small), Dark Horse, etc.

[Tim]

I have to agree with Dunlow. I've never seen these types of issues with other publishers, after purchasing and subbing comics for a long time. Valiant pays publishers. They have some say in the process. It might not be as strong as Marvel or DC, but other small publishers don't seem to have this problem (e.g. Fantagraphics, Top Shelf, Image (if you count that as small), Dark Horse, etc.

Just to chime in, whatever printer VEI is using they need to stop. I get 30-40 books a month from DCBS and they're all in great shape except for VEI books. The VEI books aren't destroyed or anything, but it's definitely noticeable. I just read them, so I'm not too concerned, but for folks who are I can imagine it'd be frustrating.

[paradise]

I hear what you're saying Ed, but the VEI titles I receive from your shop are in far better condition than those I see at my LCS. I'm guessing your staff handles the books with more care than my LCS and your books arrive in better condition because you order more volume. Just saying!

Well, I order a lot of VEI books, so for regular books, I am choosing out of a larger pool than MOST stores. Maybe that's why you are seeing this.

OK, one more try to make sense, even through I see most people here will not let go of the fact that it's a VEI problem and they need to fix it. (Unrealistic btw).

Most stores order a token amount of Valiant books, right? The packer at Diamond warehouse (i have been there and seen it done) gets an order by a wireless earpiece, goes to the right number box and pulls amount of copies asked for. He puts them into the box, and then moves on to the next order. The box keeps sliding until the next order on that invoice is added. Depending on how many copies of a title are pulled, it could be a big stack (copies inside stack are good) or a small stack, which bends in their hand. Valiant's orders are considerably low, stacks are small, the guy picks 2-3 copies and throws them in the box. Other stuff is piled on top. Let's say nothing happens in shipping. Store clerk opens the box, with two stacks of books, and a cardboard between them. They stick their hand in the middle and pull out (by spines) a bunch of books, and sort by title. All that damages books.

Again, that does not account for those warped pages, but I have seen roller marks and warped pages on Marvel and DC books on regular basis, even torn spots from a roller that's going too fast, or hitting wet paint and tearing it.

Since most of you go to your store and see only that store's copies, your sample is rather small. You take the small sample and extrapolate it to "ALL COPIES" because 2-3 others are seeing that problem. The problem with that is the other 5000 members who don't see that problem are not talking about it, thus your sample becomes the only sample. People who get good books are generally not talking about it, so all you hear are stories similar to yours and it makes it sound like it's a national crisis.

Let's use logic. The printer that does Valiant books can not be doing ONLY Valiant books, RIGHT? which means you should be seeing similar problems from at least ONE other publisher. But since most members here only buy Valiant, they are only seeing that sample and make conclusions from that.

sorry, I just don't buy it that the printer is screwing Valiant or that they use substandard quality paper. Yes they have experimented with 2-3 cover stocks but I am pretty sure it's all the same as other publishers now.

DC's stock is actually the worst, IMHO, on non-premium books.

[ilzuccone]

Also I really don't think the folks at vei have much to do with the damage.

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner. Discussion is OVER. Guys, please read my next sentence and then re-evaluate all your comments above.

And judging by Ed's last post I think dunlow was on to something.

Is it because they are shipped in small (sometimes single issue) orders instead of stacks/cases of Marvel/DC?

I do have to admit that only VEI books suffer from this issue at my LCS.

[GammaJosh]

Could Valiant be using a slightly lighter/cheaper/more-damage-prone cover stock than other companies? I don't notice a difference myself, but perhaps there could be some minor difference in stock that is small enough that we don't notice and great enough that it accounts for more frequent roller marks and other defects? I have done a few large quantity print orders and a know there are all sorts of paper stock options at various price-points, and many of them seem very similar.

[wwise03]

Today I excitedly went to the store to get The Valiant and Ivar, Timewalker.

The cover to The Valiant is beautiful.

The cover to Ivar, Timewalker has a large black smudge toward the upper right of the book. I did not buy it. And I have bought Valiant books with mangled covers.

If me, a die-hard Valiant fan, won't buy it, how can Valiant expect a non-Valiant fan to buy it? This is supposed to be a first issue designed for new readers to jump in. If all the Ivar comic covers have that black smudge across the white portion of the cover, Valiant ain't getting any new readers with this book.

[lorddunlow]

Today I excitedly went to the store to get The Valiant and Ivar, Timewalker.

The cover to The Valiant is beautiful.

The cover to Ivar, Timewalker has a large black smudge toward the upper right of the book. I did not buy it. And I have bought Valiant books with mangled covers.

If me, a die-hard Valiant fan, won't buy it, how can Valiant expect a non-Valiant fan to buy it? This is supposed to be a first issue designed for new readers to jump in. If all the Ivar comic covers have that black smudge across the white portion of the cover, Valiant ain't getting any new readers with this book.

It happens. That's not a big deal to me (or most I would think) if it is truly a manufacturing/printing defect across the whole print run. Manhattan Projects #1 has a smudge on every copy I've ever seen (not as noticeable as black on white, but still noticeable). It's present on the 9.8s that I've seen.

[hawkeyeps]

When did quality control become undoable?

I'm pleased to say I sent my photos to VEI and was thanked for it, they will follow up.

Printers are professionals just like everybody else they should produce a quality product, if your machinery is defective fix it don't send out defective product!

As I say I brought this to VEI's attention and I assume boots will be placed in a$$es, that's the best they can do and I laud them for it.

[SnotDrip]

I hear what you're saying Ed, but the VEI titles I receive from your shop are in far better condition than those I see at my LCS. I'm guessing your staff handles the books with more care than my LCS and your books arrive in better condition because you order more volume. Just saying!

Well, I order a lot of VEI books, so for regular books, I am choosing out of a larger pool than MOST stores. Maybe that's why you are seeing this.

OK, one more try to make sense, even through I see most people here will not let go of the fact that it's a VEI problem and they need to fix it. (Unrealistic btw).

Most stores order a token amount of Valiant books, right? The packer at Diamond warehouse (i have been there and seen it done) gets an order by a wireless earpiece, goes to the right number box and pulls amount of copies asked for. He puts them into the box, and then moves on to the next order. The box keeps sliding until the next order on that invoice is added. Depending on how many copies of a title are pulled, it could be a big stack (copies inside stack are good) or a small stack, which bends in their hand. Valiant's orders are considerably low, stacks are small, the guy picks 2-3 copies and throws them in the box. Other stuff is piled on top. Let's say nothing happens in shipping. Store clerk opens the box, with two stacks of books, and a cardboard between them. They stick their hand in the middle and pull out (by spines) a bunch of books, and sort by title. All that damages books.

Again, that does not account for those warped pages, but I have seen roller marks and warped pages on Marvel and DC books on regular basis, even torn spots from a roller that's going too fast, or hitting wet paint and tearing it.

Since most of you go to your store and see only that store's copies, your sample is rather small. You take the small sample and extrapolate it to "ALL COPIES" because 2-3 others are seeing that problem. The problem with that is the other 5000 members who don't see that problem are not talking about it, thus your sample becomes the only sample. People who get good books are generally not talking about it, so all you hear are stories similar to yours and it makes it sound like it's a national crisis.

Let's use logic. The printer that does Valiant books can not be doing ONLY Valiant books, RIGHT? which means you should be seeing similar problems from at least ONE other publisher. But since most members here only buy Valiant, they are only seeing that sample and make conclusions from that.

sorry, I just don't buy it that the printer is screwing Valiant or that they use substandard quality paper. Yes they have experimented with 2-3 cover stocks but I am pretty sure it's all the same as other publishers now.

DC's stock is actually the worst, IMHO, on non-premium books.

This All of it. In spades



My LCS only brings in a few copies of each - enough for those on pull lists and a few for the shelves. When I get my pull list and see dents, spine ticks, creases, colour tears, etc on anything, I do not blame the publisher nor do I blame my LCS. However as a customer, if I am going to pay 4+$ for something (or 20-50+ for a variant cover) it better be the best most pristine condition possible. I will inspect and review it before I buy - my LCS understands this, but sometimes beeks at me because I do not buy those that I consider "trashed" (although wholly subjective, one person's definition of trashed is another's "great copy" but from a business perspectives its not personal when expecting for NM++ copies). "Well, my LCS says, we pulled it/got it for your for your sub". "I appreciate that but its not worth the cover price in the condition its in". It's a complete aggro when I now have to search elsewhere for that one copy I am missing but so be it.

Don't get me wrong. As a customer - its my money - I legitimately choose how where and when and on what I spend my money and certainly don't let emotions get in the way (hate myself when impulse buys happen) and sympathize with my LCS looking at it from their shoes. Sure I rolled my comics up as a kid and stuck them in my back pocket - my early runs of Capt America pre 200 and IM are prime examples - bought off stands, all reader copies now that would otherwise bring top dollar today had I handle them as I do now. As it stands they are reader copies in VF and the pride of my collection.

Some are buying the story/artists/etc which is fine...I am buying a product and it better be good and in the best condition. People like me are my LCS' biggest pain in the arse. Look at it this way as well. You see a statue or another product . . . would you buy it at full price if it was broken damaged or missing pieces (a house/car whatever). No probably not, so why buy comics at 4+$ each if they are not to the standard that one would expect.

The publisher is not at fault.

My Flame away

[ilzuccone]

I hear what you're saying Ed, but the VEI titles I receive from your shop are in far better condition than those I see at my LCS. I'm guessing your staff handles the books with more care than my LCS and your books arrive in better condition because you order more volume. Just saying!

Well, I order a lot of VEI books, so for regular books, I am choosing out of a larger pool than MOST stores. Maybe that's why you are seeing this.

OK, one more try to make sense, even through I see most people here will not let go of the fact that it's a VEI problem and they need to fix it. (Unrealistic btw).

Most stores order a token amount of Valiant books, right? The packer at Diamond warehouse (i have been there and seen it done) gets an order by a wireless earpiece, goes to the right number box and pulls amount of copies asked for. He puts them into the box, and then moves on to the next order. The box keeps sliding until the next order on that invoice is added. Depending on how many copies of a title are pulled, it could be a big stack (copies inside stack are good) or a small stack, which bends in their hand. Valiant's orders are considerably low, stacks are small, the guy picks 2-3 copies and throws them in the box. Other stuff is piled on top. Let's say nothing happens in shipping. Store clerk opens the box, with two stacks of books, and a cardboard between them. They stick their hand in the middle and pull out (by spines) a bunch of books, and sort by title. All that damages books.

Again, that does not account for those warped pages, but I have seen roller marks and warped pages on Marvel and DC books on regular basis, even torn spots from a roller that's going too fast, or hitting wet paint and tearing it.

Since most of you go to your store and see only that store's copies, your sample is rather small. You take the small sample and extrapolate it to "ALL COPIES" because 2-3 others are seeing that problem. The problem with that is the other 5000 members who don't see that problem are not talking about it, thus your sample becomes the only sample. People who get good books are generally not talking about it, so all you hear are stories similar to yours and it makes it sound like it's a national crisis.

Let's use logic. The printer that does Valiant books can not be doing ONLY Valiant books, RIGHT? which means you should be seeing similar problems from at least ONE other publisher. But since most members here only buy Valiant, they are only seeing that sample and make conclusions from that.

sorry, I just don't buy it that the printer is screwing Valiant or that they use substandard quality paper. Yes they have experimented with 2-3 cover stocks but I am pretty sure it's all the same as other publishers now.

DC's stock is actually the worst, IMHO, on non-premium books.

This All of it. In spades



My LCS only brings in a few copies of each - enough for those on pull lists and a few for the shelves. When I get my pull list and see dents, spine ticks, creases, colour tears, etc on anything, I do not blame the publisher nor do I blame my LCS. However as a customer, if I am going to pay 4+$ for something (or 20-50+ for a variant cover) it better be the best most pristine condition possible. I will inspect and review it before I buy - my LCS understands this, but sometimes beeks at me because I do not buy those that I consider "trashed" (although wholly subjective, one person's definition of trashed is another's "great copy" but from a business perspectives its not personal when expecting for NM++ copies). "Well, my LCS says, we pulled it/got it for your for your sub". "I appreciate that but its not worth the cover price in the condition its in". It's a complete aggro when I now have to search elsewhere for that one copy I am missing but so be it.

Don't get me wrong. As a customer - its my money - I legitimately choose how where and when and on what I spend my money and certainly don't let emotions get in the way (hate myself when impulse buys happen) and sympathize with my LCS looking at it from their shoes. Sure I rolled my comics up as a kid and stuck them in my back pocket - my early runs of Capt America pre 200 and IM are prime examples - bought off stands, all reader copies now that would otherwise bring top dollar today had I handle them as I do now. As it stands they are reader copies in VF and the pride of my collection.

Some are buying the story/artists/etc which is fine...I am buying a product and it better be good and in the best condition. People like me are my LCS' biggest pain in the arse. Look at it this way as well. You see a statue or another product . . . would you buy it at full price if it was broken damaged or missing pieces (a house/car whatever). No probably not, so why buy comics at 4+$ each if they are not to the standard that one would expect.

The publisher is not at fault.

My Flame away

i assume your lcs is a small local business. if that is correct i would feel like a total *SQUEE* if i asked them to buy something for me then not buy it from them. it's the honorable thing to do. not buying most likely leads to lost prophet on their part. i say buy it because you had an agreement then go out and look for your perfect copy. OR x your pull list and just hunt for the perfect copy.

[Joshua]

I never notice these kind of defects with books I buy at shops but I do plan on getting my Valiant stuff through DCBS in a month so I guess we will see then.

[nycjadie]

I just flipped through the last 3 short boxes of Valiant books I've purchased, and I'd say that only a handful are NM. I'll post a $20 variant that I found to have 8 color breaking spine splits. It's not the worst I've purchased, and not the cheapest either with this type of damage.

On the other hand, I've flipped through many more original Valiants that have been banged around for 20+ years without backing boards, and they are in much better condition.

Disappointing customer experience.

[nycjadie]

[mkb28]

I just received my latest DCBS order and everything looked great, except the Ivar, Timewalker #1 1:50 Kitson variant. The issue had several spine creases and corner dings. I sent an email to DCBS to see what my options are. I only paid $25.00 for it, but I would expect the book to be in better condition.

Mkb28