Shadowman: End Times #2 Discussion

[KXXX]

Good lord does this book ever *SQUEE* suck.

I am almost, ALMOST mad about it! This was the franchise that sucked me into Valiant (starting with the video game, so vol.2 and 3, really), so it's really hard to accept the suck.

As I'm sure you know, my not so humble opinion is that this book started downhill after literally the first few pages of the first issue. Despite an occasional reprieve, it's been a steady decline ever since, and this issue completely follows that trend.

Jack and Alyssa falling in love feels like a 5 year old playing with GI Joes and Barbies. Just because the parts match up and they're in the same room doesn't mean they should make babies and live happily ever after, and yet (to me) that's basically what we're getting. I know it goes back a few issues, but this series has been so utterly forgettable that Jack 'sacrificing' his 'love' for Alyssa seems about as dramatic and heart wrenching as me telling a stripper I don't want lap dances anymore because I saw her penis. Whoop-dee-doo.

This book had a chance early on, but a series of decisions I can only assume were made after huffing varnish remover veered this book into craptown at full speed. The lineage has been reduced to "oh, by the way, they were all *SQUEE* crazy" and "there was one in the original Unity no one cares about." Jack has had so many identity crises that I'm surprised he's not currently a transgender, three-legged elephant named 'Skippy.' The nature of Deadside has changed a few times (now it hurts Jack's mortal life to be there? Excuse me?) from a pretty cool concept (dare I even say cooler than the original), to basically whatever the *SQUEE* they need it to be. Jaunty as a monkey is just *SQUEE*.

I could go on.

That pile of crashed cars? That was a metaphor for the series.

They should bring back the simplicity of previous incarnations, kill Jack off (hehehe) and have his soul trapped along with the Loa imprisoned in the mask. The Abettors should be dissolved in a messy civil war until a single female conveniently named Nettie remains to pass the mask on to the next schlub she sees fit to do her bidding and keep the world save from the baddies of Deadside.

[lorddunlow]

Jack 'sacrificing' his 'love' for Alyssa seems about as dramatic and heart wrenching as me telling a stripper I don't want lap dances anymore because I saw her penis.

Too... much... laughter... Keeling... Over... in pain...


Oh, and pretty much a plus one to your solution for the series in your last paragraph. I cosign that.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Haven't read the issue yet, but, this is a 3 issue mini series, called END TIMES, right? Maybe that's it for the failed Shadowman experiment. Buut, they sorta backed themselves into a corner, no? Didn't they say only a Boniface can be Shadowman? So, then technically, if there is an ongoing Shadowman, I'm pretty sure we're stuck with Jack, and no one seems pleased about that.
No way he impregnated Alyssa, right? And then have a Shadowman baby series.... drawn by Skottie Young?

[BugsySig]

Haven't read the issue yet, but, this is a 3 issue mini series, called END TIMES, right? Maybe that's it for the failed Shadowman experiment. Buut, they sorta backed themselves into a corner, no? Didn't they say only a Boniface can be Shadowman? So, then technically, if there is an ongoing Shadowman, I'm pretty sure we're stuck with Jack, and no one seems pleased about that.
No way he impregnated Alyssa, right? And then have a Shadowman baby series.... drawn by Skottie Young?

All it takes is a new spell to allow the Loa to bond with someone else...and Darque is being brought back.

[jmatt]

... Jack 'sacrificing' his 'love' for Alyssa seems about as dramatic and heart wrenching ...

...Jack has had so many identity crises ....

I'm not as angry as you, but yeah, as I've mentioned the book really needs to settle down and be less "up in the air" about everything. Three issues ago, Alyssa sold Jack out to be murdered, and now a month later giving her up is the great sacrifice.

I like some elements of the premise, like Deadside and the Loa pantheon vendetta, but I find myself feeling better about in some issues and ambivalent in others.

I can't quite put my finger on the problem.

[leonmallett]

Haven't read the issue yet, but, this is a 3 issue mini series, called END TIMES, right? Maybe that's it for the failed Shadowman experiment. Buut, they sorta backed themselves into a corner, no? Didn't they say only a Boniface can be Shadowman? So, then technically, if there is an ongoing Shadowman, I'm pretty sure we're stuck with Jack, and no one seems pleased about that.
No way he impregnated Alyssa, right? And then have a Shadowman baby series.... drawn by Skottie Young?

I shudder to think.

My big fear of any kind of reboot or re-framing of the mythos is that they make a less-than-brilliant (IMHO) situation much worse.

[leonmallett]

... Jack 'sacrificing' his 'love' for Alyssa seems about as dramatic and heart wrenching ...

...Jack has had so many identity crises ....

I'm not as angry as you, but yeah, as I've mentioned the book really needs to settle down and be less "up in the air" about everything. Three issues ago, Alyssa sold Jack out to be murdered, and now a month later giving her up is the great sacrifice.

I like some elements of the premise, like Deadside and the Loa pantheon vendetta, but I find myself feeling better about in some issues and ambivalent in others.

I can't quite put my finger on the problem.

For me the problems is that Milligan has tried to graft on too many elements in short order (the back-story of a history of violence for Jack; the change in the relationship between the Loa and Jack with the Loa's increased voice; the Abettors as untrustworthy support; the sudden romance between Jack and Alyssa; Punk Mambo; changes in Shadowman's relationship with Deadside; Josiah's status; Punk Mambo; other Loa; etc.).

Some of these would work fine, but it seems to me an attempt to over-write what was there before rather than enhance it.

[lorddunlow]

... Jack 'sacrificing' his 'love' for Alyssa seems about as dramatic and heart wrenching ...

...Jack has had so many identity crises ....

I'm not as angry as you, but yeah, as I've mentioned the book really needs to settle down and be less "up in the air" about everything. Three issues ago, Alyssa sold Jack out to be murdered, and now a month later giving her up is the great sacrifice.

I like some elements of the premise, like Deadside and the Loa pantheon vendetta, but I find myself feeling better about in some issues and ambivalent in others.

I can't quite put my finger on the problem.

For me the problems is that Milligan has tried to graft on too many elements in short order (the back-story of a history of violence for Jack; the change in the relationship between the Loa and Jack with the Loa's increased voice; the Abettors as untrustworthy support; the sudden romance between Jack and Alyssa; Punk Mambo; changes in Shadowman's relationship with Deadside; Josiah's status; Punk Mambo; other Loa; etc.).

Some of these would work fine, but it seems to me an attempt to over-write what was there before rather than enhance it.

But what about Punk Mambo?

[FormerReader]

I think my problem with the book is I just don't like Jack or any of the supporting characters. The character just doesn't resonate with me. VEI has done really well with some characters not so much with this one. I would have been happy if they had just done a mild refresh of VH1 Jack Boniface and picked up where that series had left off.

[leonmallett]

... Jack 'sacrificing' his 'love' for Alyssa seems about as dramatic and heart wrenching ...

...Jack has had so many identity crises ....

I'm not as angry as you, but yeah, as I've mentioned the book really needs to settle down and be less "up in the air" about everything. Three issues ago, Alyssa sold Jack out to be murdered, and now a month later giving her up is the great sacrifice.

I like some elements of the premise, like Deadside and the Loa pantheon vendetta, but I find myself feeling better about in some issues and ambivalent in others.

I can't quite put my finger on the problem.

For me the problems is that Milligan has tried to graft on too many elements in short order (the back-story of a history of violence for Jack; the change in the relationship between the Loa and Jack with the Loa's increased voice; the Abettors as untrustworthy support; the sudden romance between Jack and Alyssa; Punk Mambo; changes in Shadowman's relationship with Deadside; Josiah's status; Punk Mambo; other Loa; etc.).

Some of these would work fine, but it seems to me an attempt to over-write what was there before rather than enhance it.

But what about Punk Mambo?

A character I dislike immensely; cliche 90's Vertigo lite. #=

I'm not a fan. Just in case I haven't said that before now...

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Just read it. Maybe because I read all of these scathing reviews before the issue, I didn't think it was so poorly written. I did have a huge gripe with the art though. Ugh. Never once did Shadowman look like a hero. There was little to no background art at all, and the people the artist drew never resembled any character I had ever seen before. That was a lot to get through to try to enjoy this book. Wow, that was rough.

[jmatt]

For me the problems is that Milligan has tried to graft on too many elements in short order (the back-story of a history of violence for Jack; the change in the relationship between the Loa and Jack with the Loa's increased voice; the Abettors as untrustworthy support; the sudden romance between Jack and Alyssa; Punk Mambo; changes in Shadowman's relationship with Deadside; Josiah's status; Punk Mambo; other Loa; etc.).

Some of these would work fine, but it seems to me an attempt to over-write what was there before rather than enhance it.

Bingo. Well stated.

In and of themselves, each is an interesting twist or ripple in the characters and plot -- provided all of the others aren't also in flux. But when they're all in play simultaneously, it's like drinking from a firehose.

[KXXX]

For me the problems is that Milligan has tried to graft on too many elements in short order (the back-story of a history of violence for Jack; the change in the relationship between the Loa and Jack with the Loa's increased voice; the Abettors as untrustworthy support; the sudden romance between Jack and Alyssa; Punk Mambo; changes in Shadowman's relationship with Deadside; Josiah's status; Punk Mambo; other Loa; etc.).

Some of these would work fine, but it seems to me an attempt to over-write what was there before rather than enhance it.

Bingo. Well stated.

In and of themselves, each is an interesting twist or ripple in the characters and plot -- provided all of the others aren't also in flux. But when they're all in play simultaneously, it's like drinking from a firehose.

Dat visual

[Captain Craig]

I decided to read this thread as it's a slow day at work. I was so put off of the issue, again, that it wasn't worth the effort last week to post or read others thoughts on it(which I frankly think I knew).

However, reading this thread was infinitely more enjoyable than the book and may actually have made the issue a hair better. From the standpoint that having read it I know what points you guys have so humorously riffed and derided! It was even funnier than an issue of Q&W!!!

[KXXX]

I'm still for hire

[Dallow Spicer1]

- A new character who keeps "one foot" on each side of two of the levels in Deadside

I thought this issue was pretty disappointing abd after End Times finishes I hope this book goes on hiatus for a while and comes back with (somehow) a new lead character as Shadowman.

As for the new character who 'keeps one foot on each side if Deadside', I actually think this was another art/editorial error (similar to when Bloodshot's cut off arm switched sides), I think the diologue to explain the 'missing leg' switching sides was an after thought to explain the error!

[kjjohanson]

- A new character who keeps "one foot" on each side of two of the levels in Deadside

I thought this issue was pretty disappointing abd after End Times finishes I hope this book goes on hiatus for a while and comes back with (somehow) a new lead character as Shadowman.

As for the new character who 'keeps one foot on each side if Deadside', I actually think this was another art/editorial error (similar to when Bloodshot's cut off arm switched sides), I think the diologue to explain the 'missing leg' switching sides was an after thought to explain the error!

That seems a little too convenient an explanation for what would be an unnecessary scenario to begin with, if the leg situation wasn't intentional.

Like many, I am somewhat underwhelmed with Shadowman. Here's an idea: since he hasn't yet interacted with the rest of the universe in other books, what would everyone think if we found out that this series has not been set in the VEI universe, but some alternate timeline, and that we get a fresh intro to the "real" VEI Shadowman?

[Phoenix8008]

- A new character who keeps "one foot" on each side of two of the levels in Deadside

I thought this issue was pretty disappointing abd after End Times finishes I hope this book goes on hiatus for a while and comes back with (somehow) a new lead character as Shadowman.

As for the new character who 'keeps one foot on each side if Deadside', I actually think this was another art/editorial error (similar to when Bloodshot's cut off arm switched sides), I think the diologue to explain the 'missing leg' switching sides was an after thought to explain the error!

That seems a little too convenient an explanation for what would be an unnecessary scenario to begin with, if the leg situation wasn't intentional.

Like many, I am somewhat underwhelmed with Shadowman. Here's an idea: since he hasn't yet interacted with the rest of the universe in other books, what would everyone think if we found out that this series has not been set in the VEI universe, but some alternate timeline, and that we get a fresh intro to the "real" VEI Shadowman?

I would be dissapointed with VEI if they tried to explain it away in that way. If they need to 'start over', they can do that easily enough with a new Shadowman taking over for Jack after 'End Times'. I don't know if it's been asked yet, but what would people think of Josiah again assuming the mantle of Shadowman? He's obviously got something big going on where he's at and really doesn't want either Jack or the Loa coming near him. Anybody doubt that Jack will revivify Darque to get the info he needs to find Josiah?

[hawkeyeps]

[leonmallett]

Very cool.

Who is the artist?

[lorddunlow]

You have Riley Rossmo tied up in your basement, don't you?

Commissions in exchange for food?

[Baramos]

Something I don't get with this miniseries--didn't Jack meet the ghost of his father in Deadside during one of the earlier issues? Why is his father now alive and in a different dimension from Deadside?

[kjjohanson]

I think that going with a new Shadowman at this point is probably a good idea and I also hope it's a chick.

?

[leonmallett]

The whole series has been a big head ache. I think that going with a new Shadowman at this point is probably a good idea and I also hope it's a chick. The series has had some huge swings in quality and story telling, most is so inconsistent I don't even want to bother figuring it out anymore. The 'End Times" title sounds like a promise haha, like we all hope to see this story end and pick up somewhere else. I am kind of tired of learning new revelations that are forgotten or abandoned an issue later, of this flash fire romance that makes little sense and was literally like "you scumbag murderer....I love you". Shadowman's mission seems to change issue to issue, between panels. It seems like so much is being condensed that you can't get a true sense of where the characters are, and when you finally start settling on who they are they change things up again.

I would love for them to stick with just supernatural tales involving Shadowman, each issue a new unique story, kind of like an episode of Tales from the Crypt wherre Shadowman is the cryptkeeper tying them all together. The ongoing story is just not working very well. I hate that they have to just go to that Mambo chick to fix everything (meanwhile we still don't know what the real deal is with her). So lazy.

I wouldn't mind them going with Josiah for a while as Shadowman. I'm just kind of over the current nonsense.

I wonder if the book will be rested for a while after End Times?

Maybe Jack (or indeed another Shadowman/woman) needs to have some cameos in other titles to better integrate with the VALIANT universe? A stint in Unity maybe after Bloodshot?

As for Josiah; well they DO seem to be setting him up for something, but as much as I think Milligan has been unfortunately a bit heavy-handed, Josiah is no better developed (although Josiah may offer a cleaner slate, with some continuity issues aside....).

[Phoenix8008]

The whole series has been a big head ache. I think that going with a new Shadowman at this point is probably a good idea and I also hope it's a chick. The series has had some huge swings in quality and story telling, most is so inconsistent I don't even want to bother figuring it out anymore. The 'End Times" title sounds like a promise haha, like we all hope to see this story end and pick up somewhere else. I am kind of tired of learning new revelations that are forgotten or abandoned an issue later, of this flash fire romance that makes little sense and was literally like "you scumbag murderer....I love you". Shadowman's mission seems to change issue to issue, between panels. It seems like so much is being condensed that you can't get a true sense of where the characters are, and when you finally start settling on who they are they change things up again.

I would love for them to stick with just supernatural tales involving Shadowman, each issue a new unique story, kind of like an episode of Tales from the Crypt wherre Shadowman is the cryptkeeper tying them all together. The ongoing story is just not working very well. I hate that they have to just go to that Mambo chick to fix everything (meanwhile we still don't know what the real deal is with her). So lazy.

I wouldn't mind them going with Josiah for a while as Shadowman. I'm just kind of over the current nonsense.

I wonder if the book will be rested for a while after End Times?

Maybe Jack (or indeed another Shadowman/woman) needs to have some cameos in other titles to better integrate with the VALIANT universe? A stint in Unity maybe after Bloodshot?

As for Josiah; well they DO seem to be setting him up for something, but as much as I think Milligan has been unfortunately a bit heavy-handed, Josiah is no better developed (although Josiah may offer a cleaner slate, with some continuity issues aside....).

Josiah may not be better developed, but that clean slate could count for a lot. Give him some BIG goal/purpose to work towards and hang the story on that. He obviously had some good reason that was important enough for him to sacrifice the love of his wife and son to disappear (I hope at least). Fold that purpose into him becoming Shadowman again, or put Josiah's big purpose at odds with the Shadowman loa's desires and let the stories spool out from that. See, how hard was that?!

I jest. I'm sure that writing this kind of thing is immensly more difficult than my un-thought out blurb. I just wish they could get something solid going and let it play out for awhile.