Forbes Shooter artical

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:56 pm

When I emailed Shooter back in 99 to ask him about Unity 2000, he said that part of the reason he took that job was to help finance Daring, but in the six years since then, nothing's happened

Man, that bites. Another venture ruined by the foul stench of Acclaim.

depluto · Post by **depluto** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:13 am

jedimarley wrote:What's Daring?

Wearing white after Labor Day.

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:56 am

depluto wrote:Wearing white after Labor Day.

That's always gone completely over my head. What does it mean?

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:08 am

ManofTheAtom wrote:
depluto wrote:Wearing white after Labor Day.
That's always gone completely over my head. What does it mean?

Something to do with virgins?

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:41 am

White after labor day has to do with fashion, boys. Different colors are associated with different seasons. A fashionable person doesn't wear light yellows and pinks and oranges unless it is summer. A fashionable male doesn't go near that stuff at all. Labor day is the absolute end of the summer. Thus you don't wear white after labor day.

I thought some of you had wives and others of you girlfriends...

-Dave

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:09 am

We do. We just ignore then

Is it me, or does DJ know a little to much about fashion?

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:47 am

Peter Parker wrote:I realize this may read like a "holier than thou" statement..but

If Layton was such a boy scout, he should have left WITH Shooter :x It's MY opinion than Layton had no balls, and did indeed betray the business partnership he had with Shooter.

In life, ultimately, you are the company you keep...and Layton kept with the losers in the end

Very easy to say, much harder to do.

I have a wife and daughter. If I was working for a company, getting a steady paycheck, and my boss who brought me in and then was fired, I don't know what I would do. It's one thing to say you have high ideals, its another thing to sacrifice a steady income and watch bills go through the roof and watch your family suffer. Without knowing what Bob's circumstances were, I think it is hypocritical to say that he should have left.

Chris

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:41 am

cjv wrote:
Peter Parker wrote:I realize this may read like a "holier than thou" statement..but

If Layton was such a boy scout, he should have left WITH Shooter :x It's MY opinion than Layton had no balls, and did indeed betray the business partnership he had with Shooter.

In life, ultimately, you are the company you keep...and Layton kept with the losers in the end
Very easy to say, much harder to do.

I have a wife and daughter. If I was working for a company, getting a steady paycheck, and my boss who brought me in and then was fired, I don't know what I would do. It's one thing to say you have high ideals, its another thing to sacrifice a steady income and watch bills go through the roof and watch your family suffer. Without knowing what Bob's circumstances were, I think it is hypocritical to say that he should have left.

Chris

Chris,

I understand completely what you're writting about, but I have to disagree. Yes, a job and income for supporting ones family takes a backseat to almost nothing, except one thing...integrity!

Of course its not an easy decision, its a VERY difficult one, but Bob Layton was not a nobody, and WOULD have found other work if he'd left Valiant with Shooter. There are somethings in life that are bigger than we are, and it takes a "man" to grab his balls and stand behind his word, ESPECIALLY in the face of turmoil.

Success in life is directly correlated to the chances one is willing to take. In order to ever truly succeed one must strive to be diffferent, and roll the dice of life. Good things happen in life, and bad things happen in life, EACH educates, and tests a persons intestinal fortitude and perspective.

Its hypocrisy you say for me to offer up this opinion

I don't agree again, i'm no hypocrite, I know what I know about my life and how I live it each day, and I would have left in a heart beat. However, as "Cinlach" correctly wrote yesterday..."not all men have the balls to do so" and that is not only an accurate statement in general, but certainly a fact that we know about Bob Layton

cinlach@aol.com · Post by **cinlach@aol.com** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:51 am

i just realized that virtually no one here knows my name...lol

james here...sorry about that!

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:54 am

Peter Parker wrote: I understand completely what you're writting about, but I have to disagree. Yes, a job and income for supporting ones family takes a backseat to almost nothing, except one thing...integrity!

huh....too easy

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:11 am

Too easy? too easy

Look, when I write on this board or any other board for that matter, i'm offering up MY OPINION on a particular subject. In MY life, and in MY opinion, I would sell my integrity for NOBODY!!! that's right, NOBODY (not even my WIFE or KID)!

Once a man has signed away his integrity (for the good of his family or not) you are no longer your own man...period! If your scruples, morals, ethics, are so easily broken down by "threats", or "possibilities" you're probably not strong enough for your family to begin with

For me to be able to get up in the morning, look in the mirror, and feel solid about myself, my integrity MUST be intact, and true...elsewise, I end up being a timid, weak, and cowardly fella. Hence, this is why I never went into criminal defense litigation for example, it bothered my moral senses greatly to do so.

If we continue to use the family model for an example i'd finnish up by writting this:

Ultimately, if you sell your integrity for MONEY or a JOB...you're nothing but cattle, and we know what eventually happens to cattle don't we? In the end you've HURT your family IMO given you no longer have moral high ground, nor control over your choices.

Its complicated (this was a comic post correct?

) but its my perspective, and a mantra I live with everyday!

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:57 pm

It's not that I know too much about fashion, more that when I hear phrases I'm curious as their orientation. I'm into etymology and that's merely an extention.

I have a brother-in-law who quit his great job for his ideals. While we all supported him for doing it, we all, including him realized that it meant that he had to find a different line of work. Neither Shooter nor Layton (nor Massarsky, for that matter) has had financial success with work they've done after Acclaim.

-Dave

cinlach@aol.com · Post by **cinlach@aol.com** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:34 pm

while i know how easy it is to derail a topic and also while i certainly respect peters opinion. i have to say that i don't agree with it.

now i want to tread carefully here, because i know there's a ton of potential to say the wrong thing and severely offend someone, which assuredly i do NOT want to do. besides, i seem to have an amazing talent for saying the absolute wrong thing at the wrong time. there's no anger here towards anyone...i swear to god! lol

i'm not looking to start anything, i figured i'd simply share my opinion on where i feel my integrity fits into my life.

in my life, my wife and my family comes first. if i NEED to, i will do something at work or in life i don't necessarily want to do. i don't feel i'm compromising my integrity. i feel that in taking "one for the team". talk about having the balls to walk away...try having the balls to allow yourself to get kicked in them...for the sake of your family and homelife responsibilities.

now, there's a difference between taking "one for the team" and being the world's punching bag. if all i did all day long was allow the world to rack my billiards at their every whim then yes, i would be selling out my integrity.

but for example, i'm not fond of being a part of "management" at my current job. decisions are made that affect peoples lives and quite frankly i disagree with most of the things that are done and how they are handled. my wife, who works with me...we actually met there, has been reassigned to something that she doesn't really care for or want to do. so she's decided to explore some options and see what else might be out there.

so my choice is this...continue to "buck the system" placing myself and my job at risk, or play nice with the other kiddies until her situation stabilizes itself and i can do some exploring of my own.

i do not feel as though i'm sacrificing my integrity by sucking it up and doing something i'm not especially comfortable with in order to maintain the financial and vocational stability my wife needs in order to make her decisions.

she needs to know that i'm not going to jeopardize my job and trap her into something she's really not enjoying. she is much more unhappy in her situation then i am...i don't come home and cry about unhappy i am. so i owe it to her to allow her the opportunity to try and find something that's a better fit for her.

i guess it comes down to what works for each of us. if there are some others of us who are willing to do things differently then me then i respect that. your financial and personal situations might be vastly different from mine...i simply know my situation and what works best for me and my family.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:51 pm

Keeping ones' integrity and "selling out" is a very thin line to walk. The more responsibilities a man or woman takes on can sway ones' judgment to do the right thing.
In Laytons case, keep in mined, that by turning his back on Shooter he tudned his back on the very idea that Valiant was formed. A comic book company created to compete with Marvel and DC WITH OUT SARIFICING ONES INTEGRETY!!

cjv · Post by **cjv** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:56 pm

So along comes some guy, and he tells you he didn't like the way his boss (or partner, or whatever) was fired from the company he works, and so he says he quit to stay with they guy, joining him in a questionable venture with an uncertain future (since, at the time, if I recall correctly Shooter was not going to be hired by another company, and Broadway/Defiant was far from certain). After talking with him further, you go on to find out that he has a family that he needs to support, and that didn't factor in to his decision, because in his world view, integrity is everything? You would applaud this man?

Pardon me if I disagree. I might agree that he is a man of high character, or with strong values, but I would also criticize him for not looking at the bigger picture, not weighing all the factors, not consider the impact his decision may have on his family.

Peter, do you have a family/children to support? I don't know your personal story at all. I would venture to guess, however, that you don't, because from my experience when you DO have people counting on you, that influences your decisions quite a bit. IMO, unbending "integrity" (or whatever you want to call it) can be a dangerous thing. Each situation is unique, and needs to be examined in and of itself.

And, from another perspective, which man has more integrity? The man who takes a job he doesn't want, or doesn't like, or one with bosses who are less than moral, simply to provide for his family; or the man who refuses to take that job because it isn't what is best. Can't providing for your family also be considered an issue of integrity - you are putting the needs of others above the needs of yourself.

My only point is that without ALL the details (not shooters point of view, not layton point of view, not massarsky's point of view, but ALL the factual details) we don't really know why Bob stayed, what choices he was given, what factored into his decision, etc. Yes, it might have been very commendable if he followed Shooter out the door, but I think if you simply say he didn't have the guts to do it, you are just jumping to an opinion without all the facts. Is it entirely possible that Bob simply did the easiest thing, I am not saying he didn't. I am simply saying that to judge him as many people are doing, WITHOUT all the facts (and we may never have all the facts) is not too smart a thing to do.

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:16 pm

But didn't Shooter bring Layton in to help him create Valiant. Wasn't Bob one of Jim's "guys". Didn't Jim give Bob the creative freedom to create fresh new characters, storys, and ideas that Bob wasn't geting at Marvel.
I'm not saying Bob should have quite whan Jim was fired. But where was Bob during the weeks and months prior to Jim's firing?
It's one thing to follow a man into the fire, It's another to try and put the fire out.

Sect · Post by **Sect** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:30 pm

You know, it is to easy to criticize others or debate what route we would have taken if we were placed in that siutation.

Integrity, honesty, morals, scruples, etc. In the end, to each his own.

I think the most important thing is that if you can live with it, and you can wake up and look yourself in the mirror and if you can sleep at night, then who is anyone else to judge.

Generally, I find that most people are much harder on themselves than others are on them.

Bob had to do what he had to do, and no matter how we view it, if Bob is okay with himself then who are we to say anything.

On the other hand, the business/romantic relationship was not only unethical and a conflict of interest.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:39 pm

cinlach@aol.com wrote: in my life, my wife and my family comes first. if i NEED to, i will do something at work or in life i don't necessarily want to do. i don't feel i'm compromising my integrity. i feel that in taking "one for the team". talk about having the balls to walk away...try having the balls to allow yourself to get kicked in them...for the sake of your family and homelife responsibilities.

To me, what cinlach just said here is the difference between being a family man and being a deadbeat husband/father with his "own" integrity.
I'd do whatever it takes for my family including taking a couple of shots to the cojones.

DJSpecter · Post by **DJSpecter** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:53 pm

How many times are we going to have the same discussion over and over and over again?

I wasn't even going to respond to this thread at all because I figure if anyone needs to know what I can add to this discussion they can look at the 15 other times we've gone through this since I joined the forum.

I got sucked in with the labor day thing. My mistake.

Let us put a couple of things on the table:

1) A number of the knobs will swear by Massarsky. Is that because they didn't know Shooter? I don't know. I'm fairly certain that Bernard Chang and Tony Bendard and a number of others remain friends with Massarsky to this day.

2) Shooter admited in more than one place that he was going behind Massarsky's back to try and buy the company from him. Any Shooter fan would say good for him. But isn't that a bit similar to what he was trying to do at Marvel? (I don't actually know, but I do know that that does not sound like Shooter was trying to work things out any more than Massarsky and Okun were by firing him.)

3) Massarsky has refused comment to the press on a number of occasions. I am aware that his marriage to Okun was hell. (I believe that their official divorce was around the time of the sale to Acclaim, which makes a certain amount of sense.) He once claimed (privately) that his involvement with her was to somehow save Valiant because she had a habit of taking down companies if she didn't get along with their execs. This is not something that the press would hear to favorably, so it's not surprising that he chose to merely keep his mouth closed.

Now. Just throw that into the pot with everything that we already have from Mr. Layton, on his website, and everything that we've all read from interviews with Shooter.

Mr. Layton's choice to stay with the company may be for similar reasons that Massarsky gives to much of his actions. There were a couple dozen young kids with the opportunity to begin their career that would be left on the streets otherwise.

Massarsky's biggest mistake may have been choosing Triumph Capital as Valiant's backers. But when it comes to questioning Bob Layton's integrity because he didn't walk out on Massarsky, you're assuming that for him to have left would have been the moral thing to do. But what will you do when you are stuck with making the choice between becoming a dead martyr with nothing to show for it but your dignity, or staying and protecting people who really don't have anything to do with the politics. They're just trying to achieve.

-Dave

I hope I haven't offended anyone either. But I won't let my ability to add something to the truth be stifled because someone else might be offended.

Peter Parker · Post by **Peter Parker** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:54 pm

WOW

has this thread turned into a study of one's character or what?

Look, this was intended to address my personal opinion of Layton lacking character and integrity based on what "I" felt most likely happened. However, as Chris correctly points out, we just don't know the entire truth, and never will unfortunately.

As for this "integrity" monster I have seemed to create, it's no question a difficult, and controversial statement I made. One's personal vantage point and circumstances on this subject will be always be viewed from divergent opinions.

James and Chris, I respect your opinions and points of view even if we disagree. Yes, a man can have "integrity" if he suffers a job for the sake of his family (its called sacrifice) and does the "good deed" by taking the abuse because he can, and loves them. That however may be a noble choice, but doesn't make it the "right" choice.

Chris...yes, I do have a wife and a 7 month old child, so responsibility and "priorities" are well understood. However, personally, I couldn't live with MYSELF if I had to suffer the indignation, and overall insipid nature of giving up my integrity for the sake of "responsibilities", it would haunt me forever. Now this is ME writing this, offering MY opinion, not an opinion for anyone else, please understand. Once I give that integrity up (even for my family) i've lost a part of my soul, part of who and what I am/was

Look, i've had MANY a confrontation in my life (shocking, I know

) where my integrity was asked to be compromised, and i've rejected it everytime. Had I NOT done so, the vicissitude that has blessed me these days would have never transpired. I kept decisions and choices in MY "house" not at the whim and desires of others :x

So, although I understand completely where you guys stand, I simply could never live that way. Once i've sacrificed "myself" by usurping my integrity for the sake of "the team" i've essentially lost control of my life, i'm indebted to others. Furthermore, my family ultimately will suffer, because as i grow older i'll grow bitter, and angry that my "future" was taken from me because I allowed it, for the sake of my family.

Down the road of life, my family will be worse off because I would never have been the man I could have been...and all because I gave another man/person MY integrity!

just my 2 cents

jedimarley · Post by **jedimarley** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:43 pm

After reading everyones posts I've come to the conclusion that this is the best comic book website.
Nothing better than a sunday afternoon debate.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:41 pm

RE: Daring

I asked Shooter a few years ago about Daring and he told me that the ideas were going to surface in a different form. I assume that means the website he's been developing content for for the last year or so. I forget the name of the website, but he mentions it in those radio interviews that were posted a while back.