VALIANT December 2013 and End of Year Sales Discussion

[jedimarley]

So we're not seeing a growth in readership, we're seeing a growth in titles. And a shuffling of readership from one title to another.
100K seems to be the number of readership between single issues and tpbs per month. I guess that is sustainable.

[greg]

So we're not seeing a growth in readership, we're seeing a growth in titles. And a shuffling of readership from one title to another.
100K seems to be the number of readership between single issues and tpbs per month. I guess that is sustainable.

Per monthly title, Valiant may be under 10,000 (paper plus digital), but as far as total readership goes, I think there are a lot of readers who use trade paperbacks (which are always in print) and the numbers just don't show on the monthly sales.

It would not surprise me if 20,000+ people read X-O Manowar or Harbinger... but they may not read it the week (or month) it's released.

[lorddunlow]

So we're not seeing a growth in readership, we're seeing a growth in titles. And a shuffling of readership from one title to another.
100K seems to be the number of readership between single issues and tpbs per month. I guess that is sustainable.

Per monthly title, Valiant may be under 10,000 (paper plus digital), but as far as total readership goes, I think there are a lot of readers who use trade paperbacks (which are always in print) and the numbers just don't show on the monthly sales.

It would not surprise me if 20,000+ people read X-O Manowar or Harbinger... but they may not read it the week (or month) it's released.

I know for a fact that, at my LCS, the sale of TPBs for VEI greatly exceeds the sale of single issues to the point that he only orders 1-2 extra copies for the shelf above the few subscription orders he has, but his TPB supply is in constant turnover.

[BugsySig]

For those who don't want to sift through the list:

121 Unity 2* $3.99 Valiant 18,845
190 X-O Manowar 20 $3.99 Valiant 9,941
194 Eternal Warrior 4 $3.99 Valiant 9,645
197 Shadowman 13 $3.99 Valiant 9,403
199 Harbinger 19 $3.99 Valiant 9,237
208 Quantum & Woody 6 $3.99 Valiant 8,855
216 Archer & Armstrong 16 $3.99 Valiant 8,608
222 Bloodshot & Hard Corps 17 $3.99 Valiant 8,142

118 X-O Manowar Vol. 4 Homecoming $14.99 Valiant 1,043
150 Shadowman Vol. 3 Deadside Blues $14.99 Valiant 842
222 Valiant Masters Rai HC Vol. 1 $24.99 Valiant 563

[lorddunlow]

I am continually amazed that Archer and Armstrong is at the bottom of the list.

[Phoenix8008]

For those who don't want to sift through the list:

121 Unity 2* $3.99 Valiant 18,845
190 X-O Manowar 20 $3.99 Valiant 9,941
194 Eternal Warrior 4 $3.99 Valiant 9,645
197 Shadowman 13 $3.99 Valiant 9,403
199 Harbinger 19 $3.99 Valiant 9,237
208 Quantum & Woody 6 $3.99 Valiant 8,855
216 Archer & Armstrong 16 $3.99 Valiant 8,608
222 Bloodshot & Hard Corps 17 $3.99 Valiant 8,142

118 X-O Manowar Vol. 4 Homecoming $14.99 Valiant 1,043
150 Shadowman Vol. 3 Deadside Blues $14.99 Valiant 842
222 Valiant Masters Rai HC Vol. 1 $24.99 Valiant 563

Thanks, that'll save me time later when I go to enter that data!

[Phoenix8008]

I am continually amazed that Archer and Armstrong is at the bottom of the list.

And Harbinger is below both Shadowman and Eternal Warrior!!

[rjrjr]

For those who don't want to sift through the list:

121 Unity 2* $3.99 Valiant 18,845
190 X-O Manowar 20 $3.99 Valiant 9,941
194 Eternal Warrior 4 $3.99 Valiant 9,645
197 Shadowman 13 $3.99 Valiant 9,403
199 Harbinger 19 $3.99 Valiant 9,237
208 Quantum & Woody 6 $3.99 Valiant 8,855
216 Archer & Armstrong 16 $3.99 Valiant 8,608
222 Bloodshot & Hard Corps 17 $3.99 Valiant 8,142

118 X-O Manowar Vol. 4 Homecoming $14.99 Valiant 1,043
150 Shadowman Vol. 3 Deadside Blues $14.99 Valiant 842
222 Valiant Masters Rai HC Vol. 1 $24.99 Valiant 563

Just so everyone sees the trend for TPB sales (I'm using X-O Manowar):

August 2013
74 X-O Manowar Vol. 3 Planet Death $14.99 Valiant 1,174

April 2013
68 X-O Manowar Vol. 2 Enter Ninjak $14.99 Valiant 1,638

December 2012
27 X-O Manowar (Ongoing) Vol. 1 By The Sword $9.99 Valiant 2,113

This is just initial TPB orders, so this data may be meaningless.

[jedimarley]

So tpb numbers are trending down , too.

[lorddunlow]

I would really think the TPB numbers mean nothing. Subsequent sales are just as valid as initial sales, but the list is only the initial sales.

[jedimarley]

Where can we find those numbers?

[Phoenix8008]

So tpb numbers are trending down , too.

I'd say it makes sense for the Trade numbers to be trending down. While there are some who will just collect the trades and not the monthlies, trades are more often for getting off the shelf months later. It's more likely that a store could sell volume 1 of a trade since that's the start of the story. For every Volume #1 that is sold, there are fewer likely buyers for a volume 2, and fewer again for a volume 3. Also, the same rule applies for the trades as does for the monthlies: When X-O trade volume 1 came out, it was the ONLY Valiant trade. Later volumes were competing against Valiants' own other trades for shelf space, so retailers may have ordered less of each individual trade while still buying a greater total amount as time went on. Too bad the numbers for thos sales are too low to register on later months lists of top sellers.

My bottom line is this: as long as VEI is making comics, I'll be buying them to support them. If they can last a few years they may solidify their position and start growing more. Even Walking Dead didn't really explode until year 3 or so (something like that).

[Phoenix8008]

Where can we find those numbers?

I don't think anybody has those numbers. Ask VEI to publish their own sales numbers, that's about as likely as finding them anywhere else.

[lorddunlow]

So tpb numbers are trending down , too.

I'd say it makes sense for the Trade numbers to be trending down. While there are some who will just collect the trades and not the monthlies, trades are more often for getting off the shelf months later. It's more likely that a store could sell volume 1 of a trade since that's the start of the story. For every Volume #1 that is sold, there are fewer likely buyers for a volume 2, and fewer again for a volume 3. Also, the same rule applies for the trades as does for the monthlies: When X-O trade volume 1 came out, it was the ONLY Valiant trade. Later volumes were competing against Valiants' own other trades for shelf space, so retailers may have ordered less of each individual trade while still buying a greater total amount as time went on. Too bad the numbers for thos sales are too low to register on later months lists of top sellers.

My bottom line is this: as long as VEI is making comics, I'll be buying them to support them. If they can last a few years they may solidify their position and start growing more. Even Walking Dead didn't really explode until year 3 or so (something like that).

Definitely. TWD Vol. 1 continues to be Image's highest selling book year after year. If you want to check a book out, of course you start with vol. 1. I would say Vol. 2 would be the best indicator of how many actual readers there are.

[BugsySig]

Where can we find those numbers?

Comichron also posts top 300 TPBs every month, but they won't appear in subsequent months unless they sell enough to make it into the top 300. The end of year totals are the closest you'll get.

So tpb numbers are trending down , too.

They almost always do. That's why Marvel constantly renumbers and retitles books.

[jedimarley]

Well, we're coming up on year three. Explode or implode. Take your pick.

[BugsySig]

For those who don't want to sift through the list:

121 Unity 2* $3.99 Valiant 18,845
190 X-O Manowar 20 $3.99 Valiant 9,941
194 Eternal Warrior 4 $3.99 Valiant 9,645
197 Shadowman 13 $3.99 Valiant 9,403
199 Harbinger 19 $3.99 Valiant 9,237
208 Quantum & Woody 6 $3.99 Valiant 8,855
216 Archer & Armstrong 16 $3.99 Valiant 8,608
222 Bloodshot & Hard Corps 17 $3.99 Valiant 8,142

118 X-O Manowar Vol. 4 Homecoming $14.99 Valiant 1,043
150 Shadowman Vol. 3 Deadside Blues $14.99 Valiant 842
222 Valiant Masters Rai HC Vol. 1 $24.99 Valiant 563

Just so everyone sees the trend for TPB sales (I'm using X-O Manowar):

August 2013
74 X-O Manowar Vol. 3 Planet Death $14.99 Valiant 1,174

April 2013
68 X-O Manowar Vol. 2 Enter Ninjak $14.99 Valiant 1,638

December 2012
27 X-O Manowar (Ongoing) Vol. 1 By The Sword $9.99 Valiant 2,113

This is just initial TPB orders, so this data may be meaningless.

XO Vol 1 sold an additional 1,900 copies in 2013 based on the year end numbers. And could easily sell a similar amount next year for all we know.

[rjrjr]

Well, we're coming up on year three. Explode or implode. Take your pick.

I think consistent is going to be the likely outcome unless new characters and new titles are introduced or another media outlet is announced.

[rjrjr]

For those who don't want to sift through the list:

121 Unity 2* $3.99 Valiant 18,845
190 X-O Manowar 20 $3.99 Valiant 9,941
194 Eternal Warrior 4 $3.99 Valiant 9,645
197 Shadowman 13 $3.99 Valiant 9,403
199 Harbinger 19 $3.99 Valiant 9,237
208 Quantum & Woody 6 $3.99 Valiant 8,855
216 Archer & Armstrong 16 $3.99 Valiant 8,608
222 Bloodshot & Hard Corps 17 $3.99 Valiant 8,142

118 X-O Manowar Vol. 4 Homecoming $14.99 Valiant 1,043
150 Shadowman Vol. 3 Deadside Blues $14.99 Valiant 842
222 Valiant Masters Rai HC Vol. 1 $24.99 Valiant 563

Just so everyone sees the trend for TPB sales (I'm using X-O Manowar):

August 2013
74 X-O Manowar Vol. 3 Planet Death $14.99 Valiant 1,174

April 2013
68 X-O Manowar Vol. 2 Enter Ninjak $14.99 Valiant 1,638

December 2012
27 X-O Manowar (Ongoing) Vol. 1 By The Sword $9.99 Valiant 2,113

This is just initial TPB orders, so this data may be meaningless.

XO Vol 1 sold an additional 1,900 copies in 2013 based on the year end numbers. And could easily sell a similar amount next year for all we know.

Based on this, I'm guessing the current Valiant readership is about 10,000 - 15,000 per title, with lots and lots of overlap for people who buy multiple Valiant titles. 20,000 readers total seems likely.

To me, that is a strong enough base to keep Valiant around indefinitely.

[jedimarley]

You're way off. 10k per title is more realistic. Both single issues and trades combined. Still a good number.

[Phoenix8008]

For reference, I'm trying to post a pick showing the sales numbers for The Walking Dead. First caveat is this, The Walking Dead isn't a shared universe. It's one single book. So there is no pressure for someone getting that title to buy any other titles to 'have it all'. So I'd say that makes it a little easier for people to add to their collection, therefore explaining some of it's higher initial numbers. Let's see if I can post the pic...



Nope.

So, here's the link to the article the image is in: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=40333
It's the second chart shown. You can click on it to enlarge.

Year 1: Started around 7,500 sales and went up to nearly 15,000
Years 2-3: grew slowly until it finally cracked the 20,000 mark.
Years 4-7: stayed between 20,000 and 25,000 issues sold per month. Around the end of year 7, the TV show started...
Year 8/Season 1 of TV show: Climbed from around 27,000/month up to 32,000/month with a couple spikes up to 40k.
Year 9/ After Season 1 of TV show: The comic skyrockets up from 32,000/month to 55,000/month or higher by the end of the 9th year, because their chart stops there half way through 2012.

I go through all this just to show the point that a series can be successful and just coast along for several years and if we're VERY lucky, VEI will be able to branch out into some other media (they are trying to follow the Marvel plan after all) then their exposure jumps and we can maybe have a real hit on our hands. They seem stable enough to me that I'm not gonna worry every month if the numbers wobble some.. Worst case scenerio is they eventually crash and burn and we're left with another dead universe... but I think we're a long way from that point.

[BugsySig]

You're way off. 10k per title is more realistic. Both single issues and trades combined. Still a good number.

Plus digital and international readers (and foreign language sales now, too).

Digital seems to be around 10% of print at this point (by some of our best guesses around here at least) and international is something like 30% of North American sales (Someone can probably correct me if that's wrong).

If we use 9k monthly as a base (since that's about the avg/book minus Unity which just launched):

9k monthly + 2k in trades (for a year that seems realistic, but could be more over multiple years) + ~1k digital + ~3k international = ~16k readers

There is bound to be some overlap with monthlies, trades and digital so 12-15k readers per title may be a realistic estimate.

[rjrjr]

Sales for the TPB for the Walking Dead is not the norm for most TPBs. Most TPBs are printed once at maybe two to three times the initial order and that's it. And many of them *never* sell out. Titles like the Walking Dead, Watchmen, and Batman: The Dark Night Returns are an anomaly, not the norm.

Regardless, I think Valiant is doing just fine. Hey, as long as they are producing comics people like and they are able to continue to keep the doors open selling them, what does it matter how many they sell?

[BugsySig]

Sales for the TPB for the Walking Dead is not the norm for most TPBs. Most TPBs are printed once at maybe two to three times the initial order and that's it. And many of them *never* sell out. Titles like the Walking Dead, Watchmen, and Batman: The Dark Night Returns are an anomaly, not the norm.

Regardless, I think Valiant is doing just fine. Hey, as long as they are producing comics people like and they are able to continue to keep the doors open selling them, what does it matter how many they sell?

I think he was talking about the monthly sales, not the trades.

Sales numbers just give us an idea of how well VEI is doing. Given the past history of VALIANT and other upstart publishers, I think we always worry about their future and use the numbers to hopefully allay our fears.

[jedimarley]

I call bull *SQUEE*. The comics are overpriced and mediocre at best. People are finally figuring that out and it shows in the monthly sales.