The new Valiant - no revolution but a restoration

[krylox]

thanks for the additional warm welcoming guys!

i also think the management of valiant is very capable and very much hope they see the need for action on this issue, namely developing new property. truth to be told, i was 100% sure that the next book, even unity, would be something really brand new. i was wondering if they would re-imagine some characters like solar and magnus in a whole new way and doing so avoid buying the old properties. especially magnus is crucial for bridging the universe into the future, which was a big appeal with the first valiant universe.

i guess that's where the big disappointment with the unity announcements came from in the first place. i expected a bolder move by now...

there are so many great writers nowadays... it would be so cool if the next moves wouldn't be editorial-driven but more creator-driven. let spurrier, kot or some stablished veteran like waid come up with a whole new concept.

can't wait for that to happen.

Mark Waid!? Can I refer you to XO Manowar 'the Acclaim years'!

yes, you can (obviously)
sorry, haven't read anything from acclaim besides a few issues of q&w. i really like waid's daredevil right now, but i have to admit, that i couldn't name a lot of his past highlights (besides fantastic four which was pretty nice, if not super-memorable or anything) for me he feels like a very american writer of superheroes: pretty straight story, good dramaturgy/plot, satisfying reveals... a good craftsman who knows his stuff. very similar to kurt busiek, imho.
not in awe with his work, mind you, but this is as mainstream as my taste can go.
but you didn't wanna know this in the first place, right?

so his x-o sucks. good to know. just grabbing some acclaims, mainly bloodshot, from ebay...

[lorddunlow]

thanks for the additional warm welcoming guys!

i also think the management of valiant is very capable and very much hope they see the need for action on this issue, namely developing new property. truth to be told, i was 100% sure that the next book, even unity, would be something really brand new. i was wondering if they would re-imagine some characters like solar and magnus in a whole new way and doing so avoid buying the old properties. especially magnus is crucial for bridging the universe into the future, which was a big appeal with the first valiant universe.

i guess that's where the big disappointment with the unity announcements came from in the first place. i expected a bolder move by now...

there are so many great writers nowadays... it would be so cool if the next moves wouldn't be editorial-driven but more creator-driven. let spurrier, kot or some stablished veteran like waid come up with a whole new concept.

can't wait for that to happen.

Mark Waid!? Can I refer you to XO Manowar 'the Acclaim years'!

yes, you can (obviously)
sorry, haven't read anything from acclaim besides a few issues of q&w. i really like waid's daredevil right now, but i have to admit, that i couldn't name a lot of his past highlights (besides fantastic four which was pretty nice, if not super-memorable or anything) for me he feels like a very american writer of superheroes: pretty straight story, good dramaturgy/plot, satisfying reveals... a good craftsman who knows his stuff. very similar to kurt busiek, imho.
not in awe with his work, mind you, but this is as mainstream as my taste can go.
but you didn't wanna know this in the first place, right?

so his x-o sucks. good to know. just grabbing some acclaims, mainly bloodshot, from ebay...

I'm enjoying this debate on a serious level, but I can't pass up the opportunity:

Bull$#!t

[Dallow Spicer1]

thanks for the additional warm welcoming guys!

i also think the management of valiant is very capable and very much hope they see the need for action on this issue, namely developing new property. truth to be told, i was 100% sure that the next book, even unity, would be something really brand new. i was wondering if they would re-imagine some characters like solar and magnus in a whole new way and doing so avoid buying the old properties. especially magnus is crucial for bridging the universe into the future, which was a big appeal with the first valiant universe.

i guess that's where the big disappointment with the unity announcements came from in the first place. i expected a bolder move by now...

there are so many great writers nowadays... it would be so cool if the next moves wouldn't be editorial-driven but more creator-driven. let spurrier, kot or some stablished veteran like waid come up with a whole new concept.

can't wait for that to happen.

Mark Waid!? Can I refer you to XO Manowar 'the Acclaim years'!

yes, you can (obviously)
sorry, haven't read anything from acclaim besides a few issues of q&w. i really like waid's daredevil right now, but i have to admit, that i couldn't name a lot of his past highlights (besides fantastic four which was pretty nice, if not super-memorable or anything) for me he feels like a very american writer of superheroes: pretty straight story, good dramaturgy/plot, satisfying reveals... a good craftsman who knows his stuff. very similar to kurt busiek, imho.
not in awe with his work, mind you, but this is as mainstream as my taste can go.
but you didn't wanna know this in the first place, right?

so his x-o sucks. good to know. just grabbing some acclaims, mainly bloodshot, from ebay...

Are you sure you're German? Your use of 'casual English' (I just invented that phrase) is too good (although I am aware Germans and Scandinavians usually speak excellent English). Am I right to be uber impressed?

Ps I've read some of Waids DD and it was 'ok' but I'd still be interested in what he could do for VEI. I also think he's a 'big name' who could pull in new readers.

[krylox]

Are you sure you're German? Your use of 'casual English' (I just invented that phrase) is too good (although I am aware Germans and Scandinavians usually speak excellent English). Am I right to be uber impressed?

Ps I've read some of Waids DD and it was 'ok' but I'd still be interested in what he could do for VEI. I also think he's a 'big name' who could pull in new readers.

haha, thanks man. yeah, pretty sure i'm german. my native language is romanian, though (i'm also a history buff and very interested in the roman-dacian conflict AND now i'm kind of excited how the war between aric in romania will turn out... )
i learned english basically while reading comics. when i was a kid, most american comics weren't properly translated into german, so i sat down with my x-men inferno comics and a dictionary at my side and tried to figure out what mr sinister and this hot chick madelyne prior were all about...

still, i'm a far cry compared to basically any scandinavian bus driver or street sweeper who's not only super-fluent in english but also has the perfect accent. it's cause they don't synchronize nothing in scandinavian television (sadly, they do in germany), so they grow up hearing proper american slang every day...

[Dallow Spicer1]

Are you sure you're German? Your use of 'casual English' (I just invented that phrase) is too good (although I am aware Germans and Scandinavians usually speak excellent English). Am I right to be uber impressed?

Ps I've read some of Waids DD and it was 'ok' but I'd still be interested in what he could do for VEI. I also think he's a 'big name' who could pull in new readers.

haha, thanks man. yeah, pretty sure i'm german. my native language is romanian, though (i'm also a history buff and very interested in the roman-dacian conflict AND now i'm kind of excited how the war between aric in romania will turn out... )
i learned english basically while reading comics. when i was a kid, most american comics weren't properly translated into german, so i sat down with my x-men inferno comics and a dictionary at my side and tried to figure out what mr sinister and this hot chick madelyne prior were all about...

still, i'm a far cry compared to basically any scandinavian bus driver or street sweeper who's not only super-fluent in english but also has the perfect accent. it's cause they don't synchronize nothing in scandinavian television (sadly, they do in germany), so they grow up hearing proper american slang every day...

Well I'm pretty sure your English is better than most people on the board's German! Although (and I may be biased on this), if you are learning English spoken slang then learn it from the Mother country and not our American cousins!

Yeah, I'm sure you are paying special attention to the current XO story line, you'll have to tell V Ditti if his depiction of Rumania is off track!

[The Dirt Gang]

Welcome to the boards. This is a great discussion and I feel where you're coming from. For the most part, I'm really happy with the way VEI is handling things.

For me, one of the things that made VH1 stand out to me as a kid was what to me at the time seemed like really original concepts. Of course, I wasn't rooted in older comics and didn't necessarily see a lot of the connections (i.e. XO as a Conan Iron Man) or even know anything about Gold Key - to me they were all new original characters. Anyhow, a lot of the story concepts were so fantastic and unlike anything else I'd seen. The way the future timeline and current timeline worked so well together and really tied together well in Unity. From EW being mind wiped in the future to Torque and Kris' baby being escorted to the future to become Magnus. It all seemed so fresh to me.

In my opinion, VEI is telling really good stories, I just haven't seen a lot of those really different and original (if anything is original) concepts. However, I also realize I'm viewing a lot of this through adult eyes as compared to early teenager eyes. I also think VEI is definitely capable of these concepts. The debris ring around Earth is just one such concept. It's a brilliant idea that can lead to all sorts of great stories and outcomes. In the case of a character like Bloodshot, I think they did a brilliant job mashing the VH1 and Acclaim Bloodshot together. The VEI concept of Bloodshot is so much more interesting to me than either of the others.

As it's been said elsewhere, I do think a lot of VH1 now feels dated. I think guys like Venditti and Dysart have given the characters more nuisance that has led to much better stories. Aric is far more real than the grunting caveman he was before and Torque is a huge improvement over the original.

For me, it's hard to overcome that childhood excitement and nostalgia but I think VEI is steering the ship in the right direction and could really put together a universe and stories as brilliant as the best of VH1 (which for me was really only great when Shooter was around ). Although, I do like some Bob Hall Shadowman.

Anyhow, my . Welcome to the boards and thanks for starting a great conversation!

[mero19]

Welcome to the board.

While I agree most of us would like to see something totally new , like " The Amazing Squeeman " , from what I've read over the years a superhero comic is only as good as the universe in inhibits. Are there exceptions to the rule , yes. When VE1 launched it was just before what I see as one of the big upswells in collectors and readers. Every company could throw out many old/new ideas and there was enough readers buying , a comic could find its readers. I see the market very different today. I've really liked the relaunch , and as long as they keep building the existing universe well and keep having strong stories for the titles they have been recycling, I'm in.

I'd also be curious on 'new characters' in statistics from the big 2. Comics like the x-men titles or batman titles might introduce 10 + new characters a year, but honestly how many actaully can make it to the point of getting there own comic. Not every new character is a Deadpool ,a Joker, or a Rai but can be great as part of a story.

To me, Valiant has been about its universe and how the comics interact with each other, not just about certain characters.

[krylox]

For me, one of the things that made VH1 stand out to me as a kid was what to me at the time seemed like really original concepts.

...

In my opinion, VEI is telling really good stories, I just haven't seen a lot of those really different and original (if anything is original) concepts. However, I also realize I'm viewing a lot of this through adult eyes as compared to early teenager eyes. I also think VEI is definitely capable of these concepts. The debris ring around Earth is just one such concept. It's a brilliant idea that can lead to all sorts of great stories and outcomes. In the case of a character like Bloodshot, I think they did a brilliant job mashing the VH1 and Acclaim Bloodshot together. The VEI concept of Bloodshot is so much more interesting to me than either of the others.

As it's been said elsewhere, I do think a lot of VH1 now feels dated. I think guys like Venditti and Dysart have given the characters more nuisance that has led to much better stories. Aric is far more real than the grunting caveman he was before and Torque is a huge improvement over the original.

For me, it's hard to overcome that childhood excitement and nostalgia but I think VEI is steering the ship in the right direction and could really put together a universe and stories as brilliant as the best of VH1 (which for me was really only great when Shooter was around ). Although, I do like some Bob Hall Shadowman.

Anyhow, my . Welcome to the boards and thanks for starting a great conversation!

very VERY much agree with your post. i was also very psyched about the relaunch and i'm still liking the line as a whole, but there's some fatigue regarding the constant recycling of old concepts and characters. i would argue that, if you look at vei from an "complexity&originality" angle, they're far behind where vh1 was at this point (namely 15 months in).

i'm also thinking the creators, at least some of them (dysart, swierczynski, venditti, kindt) have the caliber to create some interesting meta-concepts, so i guess the fact that it didn't happen yet means the editorial staff isn't up for it. that was the great and wonderful thing about vh1, when shooter was still on board: the man at the top was first and foremost a passionate (and talented) storyteller.

i'm missing the bold creations and the crazy creativity! vei is playing it too safe. their comics feel like "yeah, we've being doing this for the past 5 years". which is good, cause it means they're done in a professional manner and they seem reliable and all. you can feel a lot of energy and enthusiasm coming from the editors in interviews but i hardly get this from the stories they're creating. yes, they're pretty good, some even very good. but they don't feel new and exciting.

look at the numbers for july. even if there is some miscalculations (i think there is), it's obvious the titles are not gaining momentum.
and truth to be told, i think dark horse, boom, black mask, IMAGE!!! .. hell, even dynamite, marvel and dc are putting out a lot of pretty good books out, nowadays. can't remember when the market was that diverse and exciting in the past. it's not by chance they sell a lot more comics compared to those dark times when we only had the same old marvel&dc superhero-recycling...

so, i think, as exciting as this new market is, or BECAUSE it is that exciting it's like: either you truly stand out and are different... or you'll be gone.

[krylox]

Welcome to the board.

While I agree most of us would like to see something totally new , like " The Amazing Squeeman " , from what I've read over the years a superhero comic is only as good as the universe in inhibits. Are there exceptions to the rule , yes. When VE1 launched it was just before what I see as one of the big upswells in collectors and readers. Every company could throw out many old/new ideas and there was enough readers buying , a comic could find its readers. I see the market very different today. I've really liked the relaunch , and as long as they keep building the existing universe well and keep having strong stories for the titles they have been recycling, I'm in.

I'd also be curious on 'new characters' in statistics from the big 2. Comics like the x-men titles or batman titles might introduce 10 + new characters a year, but honestly how many actaully can make it to the point of getting there own comic. Not every new character is a Deadpool ,a Joker, or a Rai but can be great as part of a story.

To me, Valiant has been about its universe and how the comics interact with each other, not just about certain characters.

true. what's also true is, that it might be quite tricky for corporate comics to attract interesting artists doing their creations on a work-for-hire basis. even if they get some kind of share in the creation, why wouldn't they take it to image and have all of it?

[CallMeBloodshot]

I think it's plenty fresh. It's not easy pioneering in the storytelling element anymore as most nearly every story has been told. It's the details and characters and way in which its told as well as themes that can really make stories unique. And yes sometimes people do something never done, but you can't expect that to happen all the time, it just does when it does.

The only thing that I sometimes can't shake is that Harbinger is basically X-Men in more ways than one. Obviously I'm a fan of Habinger, but recently getting back into some X-Men stuff and I'm just realizing how its pretty much the exact same idea. Substitute the word "psiots" with "mutants", read it to a friend and they would probably accept it as X-Men. Harada is Magneto, Cronus looks to be exactly like new age revolutionary Cyclops, the leader of "his people" and all. There's even a page in All New X-Men with Jean trying to block out all the voice bubbles like in Harbinger. That idea could have came from Harby first, but idk, I honestly can't help but notice the similarities anymore.

[leonmallett]

I think it's plenty fresh. It's not easy pioneering in the storytelling element anymore as most nearly every story has been told. It's the details and characters and way in which its told as well as themes that can really make stories unique. And yes sometimes people do something never done, but you can't expect that to happen all the time, it just does when it does.

The only thing that I sometimes can't shake is that Harbinger is basically X-Men in more ways than one. Obviously I'm a fan of Habinger, but recently getting back into some X-Men stuff and I'm just realizing how its pretty much the exact same idea. Substitute the word "psiots" with "mutants", read it to a friend and they would probably accept it as X-Men. Harada is Magneto, Cronus looks to be exactly like new age revolutionary Cyclops, the leader of "his people" and all. There's even a page in All New X-Men with Jean trying to block out all the voice bubbles like in Harbinger. That idea could have came from Harby first, but idk, I honestly can't help but notice the similarities anymore.

Those parallels have always been there to a greater or lesser extent, arguably, even if as a mash-up. Archetypes can be traced to other concepts (Shadowman to any number of mystic Marvel heroes of the 1970's for example, similarly to Harada to Magneto)

But I agree with the Harbinger parallel perhaps being the most acutely obvious.

That said, Harbinger feels a much more coherent approach than X-Men ever did for me. I have tried X-Men at various times (including reprints of the 1960's stuff when published in the UK in the 1980's), but ultimately the basic concept has been so warped in so many directions that I just cannot buy into the corner of the MU that the Marvel books represent.

Of course, Harbinger has never been in a position to be weighed down by 50+ years of continuity...

[CallMeBloodshot]

I think it's plenty fresh. It's not easy pioneering in the storytelling element anymore as most nearly every story has been told. It's the details and characters and way in which its told as well as themes that can really make stories unique. And yes sometimes people do something never done, but you can't expect that to happen all the time, it just does when it does.

The only thing that I sometimes can't shake is that Harbinger is basically X-Men in more ways than one. Obviously I'm a fan of Habinger, but recently getting back into some X-Men stuff and I'm just realizing how its pretty much the exact same idea. Substitute the word "psiots" with "mutants", read it to a friend and they would probably accept it as X-Men. Harada is Magneto, Cronus looks to be exactly like new age revolutionary Cyclops, the leader of "his people" and all. There's even a page in All New X-Men with Jean trying to block out all the voice bubbles like in Harbinger. That idea could have came from Harby first, but idk, I honestly can't help but notice the similarities anymore.

Those parallels have always been there to a greater or lesser extent, arguably, even if as a mash-up. Archetypes can be traced to other concepts (Shadowman to any number of mystic Marvel heroes of the 1970's for example, similarly to Harada to Magneto)

But I agree with the Harbinger parallel perhaps being the most acutely obvious.

That said, Harbinger feels a much more coherent approach than X-Men ever did for me. I have tried X-Men at various times (including reprints of the 1960's stuff when published in the UK in the 1980's), but ultimately the basic concept has been so warped in so many directions that I just cannot buy into the corner of the MU that the Marvel books represent.

Of course, Harbinger has never been in a position to be weighed down by 50+ years of continuity...

Yeah there's times where they couldn't be more different, especially in tone. This last issue of Harbinger is pure Harbinger. It's just an interesting similarity, one that may have even been intentional considering the people who came from Marvel bringing ideas over.

Even as an extension of that you could say Bloodshot is similar to Wolverine. PRS is essentially like Weapon X. But instead of adamantium he's got nanites in his blood.

I've even heard people call X-O an amalgam of Captain America, Thor as Iron Man. I believe I've mentioned this on these forums once before, but it bears mentioning here I guess. Now that's not to say its a blatant rip off, but it does seem like whoever created these characters had a certain love for these Marvel characters and certain aspects about them. But I know that the creator (Shooter if my mind serves me right) came from Marvel editorial.

If anything I find it a good way to promote Valiant to non readers. It makes these characters seem more accessible from a glance, when you can juxtapose Valiant's characters with X-Men, Wolverine or whoever.