Why are you under whelmed by Shadowman?

[Donovan]

Shadowman #4 was where the book lost me. It just felt like everything was wrapped up magically. (pun intended).

I really have to sit down and read #1-4 in one sitting at some point to see if I understood the arc. But the fact that I don't even feel motivated to do that speaks volumes about my attitude to the title.

Zircher and Reber were fantastic on it, however.

[manga4life]

Shadowman #4 was where the book lost me. It just felt like everything was wrapped up magically. (pun intended).

I really have to sit down and read #1-4 in one sitting at some point to see if I understood the arc. But the fact that I don't even feel motivated to do that speaks volumes about my attitude to the title.

Zircher and Reber were fantastic on it, however.

Have you read issue #5 or #6 yet? Read what everyone is saying about issue #5 and then go check it out, the series is totally back on track and ready to rock n' roll from here on out. Issue #4 was terrible, and when I mean terrible I mean......REALLY terrible. I did enjoy issues 1-3, though.

[Donovan]

Oh yeah, I've been enjoying #5 and 6! But given the letdown from the first 4 issue arc, I'm worried about how this one will wrap up!

And I'm collecting this book until the end of time, so I won't be dropping it!

[The Dirt Gang]

I'll preface this by saying I've had to drop every comic book I was purchase for financial reasons. (I'm hoping to pick up Valiant issues in trade at some point)

I picked up Shadowman through issue 2 at which point I had to drop all titles. However, I found both issues underwhelming especially given how good, Harbinger, XO, A&A and too a lesser degree Bloodshot were.

Shadowman's redesign was the first thing I didn't like in the new Valiant world. I didn't mind the staff but really didn't like his "utility" belt. I used to work in film and tv and it reminded me of the belts the hair and make-up people wear. I've always had a soft spot for the old blue footie pajama costume (that's probably just nostalgia).

The 2 issues I read, I thought the writing was cheesy and not what I came to expect from the Valiant relaunch. I also agree while Zircher's artwork looks great but tonally I don't think it works for Shadowman. I really like the look and tone of the Acclaim relaunch and liked Zero better than this incarnation. One thing I enjoyed about the original series was how much New Orleans felt like a character in the story, Jack being a jazz musician probably helped as well. I felt like Dox being midget was a little too on the nose for my taste (maybe that's too picky). Darque felt too much like Hellraiser (Barker's Pinhead). Everything seemed a little too much like what I would expect in a comic book. I always enjoyed that in the original series Jack was just a regular guy trying to find his way with this new power and even Darque had a more real world feel. Darque didn't seem or look like your typical comic book villain. Jack's story in Unity was one of my favorites because he wasn't a superhero.

Overall, I think Shadowman sort of lacked some of the originality I saw in the other VEI titles. It felt like a superhero title I could find at either of the big two.

I'll still be picking up the first trade to finish out the arc. I'm willing to give it a chance but it by far my least favorite.

[KXXX]

At what point did you drop? I have doubles I may be willing to part with for free.

[mrozisik]

the problem is less to do with art, more to do with the story. This is one title in VE that needs a new writer, asap.

I looked at the track record of Justin Jordan. He hasn't written anything of any significance before joining Valiant. And he is continuing that trend.

They must find a better replacement for Justin Jordan quickly to save this title from mediocracy.

[The Dirt Gang]

At what point did you drop? I have doubles I may be willing to part with for free.

I'd have to check. I dropped about the end of the year but I don't remember if it was Nov or Dec. I think I have 2 issues of Shadowman but I'd have to look. That would be amazing! I'll send you message once I get home and hopefully we can work something out.

[KXXX]

the problem is less to do with art, more to do with the story. This is one title in VE that needs a new writer, asap.

I looked at the track record of Justin Jordan. He hasn't written anything of any significance before joining Valiant. And he is continuing that trend.

They must find a better replacement for Justin Jordan quickly to save this title from mediocracy.

INSTRUCTIONS: Apply liberally to burned area. Repeat as necessary.

[KXXX]

At what point did you drop? I have doubles I may be willing to part with for free.

I'd have to check. I dropped about the end of the year but I don't remember if it was Nov or Dec. I think I have 2 issues of Shadowman but I'd have to look. That would be amazing! I'll send you message once I get home and hopefully we can work something out.

I will send you one of everything if you shave the Harbinger emblem in your chest hair and take a picture to post here!

[The Dirt Gang]

At what point did you drop? I have doubles I may be willing to part with for free.

I'd have to check. I dropped about the end of the year but I don't remember if it was Nov or Dec. I think I have 2 issues of Shadowman but I'd have to look. That would be amazing! I'll send you message once I get home and hopefully we can work something out.

I will send you one of everything if you shave the Harbinger emblem in your chest hair and take a picture to post here!

You drive a hard bargin. I'm going to have a lot of questions to answer when the wife and kids come back from their spring break. Guess I better go charge the razor.

[KXXX]

At what point did you drop? I have doubles I may be willing to part with for free.

I'd have to check. I dropped about the end of the year but I don't remember if it was Nov or Dec. I think I have 2 issues of Shadowman but I'd have to look. That would be amazing! I'll send you message once I get home and hopefully we can work something out.

I will send you one of everything if you shave the Harbinger emblem in your chest hair and take a picture to post here!

You drive a hard bargin. I'm going to have a lot of questions to answer when the wife and kids come back from their spring break. Guess I better go charge the razor.

Honestly, brother... they're yours either way. But it would be *SQUEE* hilarious. It's all karma, baby. I give you something, you give us all a chuckle and the world's a slightly better (and less hairy) place.

[greg]

I will send you one of everything if you shave the Harbinger emblem in your chest hair and take a picture to post here!

You drive a hard bargin. I'm going to have a lot of questions to answer when the wife and kids come back from their spring break. Guess I better go charge the razor.

Just tell them you were inspired by this.

[Xtianhardy]

I liked the original series but that is not why I don't like current series. I have been vocal in these boards of not trying to compare the current incarnations to previous incarnations when I was defending X-O Manowar and Archer and Armstrong.

The problem with the book for me is that the lead character is uninteresting. His motivations for transitioning from hating his father and then suddenly embracing the Shadowman legacy was not fleshed out, and it is something I expected to have been fleshed out a bit already given that the storytelling is decompressed. What's the hook for Jack? Why should we care for him?

The supporting cast is actually ok, specially Jaunty, Dox and Darque. Alyssa, despite her extended panel time, is not developed as a character. Fred Van Lente has given Sister Thomas Aquinas more character with half the number of panels used.

I will totally agree about the design for Josiah. That is who I thought Shadowman was supposed to look like. I have grown to like Jack's look and the fact that there is a toy coming out with that look makes it easier to like

This is another source of contention for me. Patrick Zircher's art is good but it adds to the confusion of what this title wants to be. Is it a superhero book, which fits Zircher's art and the design of Jack's Shadowman? Or is it more of a horror/magic book, given the voodoo elements and the characterization of Darque and Baron Zamedi? Right now the book is confused. Personally, I would prefer that they go second route. I think this explains why I find Dave Johnson's covers more appealing than Zircher's. And the best art is in issue #5, the one drawn by Roberto dela Torre which is just so full of mood. Look at the following comparison:

In the second, the mystic mood of the Deadside is all Brian Reber. In the first, dela Torre contributes to the mood with his linework.

I also agree about this title being better than most Marvel and DC titles. I have completely dropped them and don't miss them. I am all in Valiant.

Not to drag this thread into a very different discussion but if you actually see this Shadowman as better than Waid and Samnee's Daredevil, Fraction and Aja's Hawkeye, Hickman's Avengers titles, Remender and Romita Jr.'s Captain America, Fraction's Thor, Spurrier's X-Men: Legacy or even Bendis' reinvigorated X-Men titles, I don't think we will come to an agreement on what a good comic book reads like.

I pretty much agree with everything you've got to say here erwinrafael. Especially with regards to Jack as a bland, uninteresting lead. As you said, this book is very confused about what it wants to be: is this a superhero book with supernatural overtones or is it a horror/supernatural story that takes place in a superhero universe? Try compare Scott Snyder's recent run on Swamp Thing to Alan Moore's more introspective, horror-focused run. They represent two completely different tones and have very different relationships to the superhero genre. Shadowman seems to be more of a superhero comic with supernatural elements, but it's approach with the supernatural is far too middle-of-the-road to interest me as a horror/fantasy fan. When Dark Horse publishes like 3-4 B.P.R.D/Hellboy Universe comics a month, why would I buy this? "Valiant loyalty" isn't enough for me to overlook the mixed/poor quality of the book.

Shadowman is merely average as a superhero comic, and its a failure as a horror comic. Feel free to argue that Shadowman is not meant to be a horror-title, but then what is it supposed to be? A supernatural superhero comic? I already read The Darkness, which is ostensibly a supernatural superhero book, and David Hine is killing it on that title by taking it back to its horror roots. Swamp Thing seems to be heading back into the horror direction as well. I doubt Spawn fans are going to check this out as its neither as dark nor as established as that title.

I was hopeful about this book after #5 but the latest issue was a letdown of both story and art. I've gone back and forth on this title since it came out, and I think 6 issues is all I need to read to be certain that there are better books I could be reading ("Hey there, Abe Sapien #1! Oh hai American Vampire").

[The Dirt Gang]

I will send you one of everything if you shave the Harbinger emblem in your chest hair and take a picture to post here!

You drive a hard bargin. I'm going to have a lot of questions to answer when the wife and kids come back from their spring break. Guess I better go charge the razor.

Just tell them you were inspired by this.

That is inspiring! Although, after checking out my chest hair in my workplace bathroom, I don't know that I can pull that off (I'm not that hairy) I'll definitely come up with something else if I can't pull it off.

[Bone-A-Fach-ee]

Overall, I think Shadowman sort of lacked some of the originality I saw in the other VEI titles. It felt like a superhero title I could find at either of the big two.

I think that hits the nail on the head. Uninspired. Though, great art. I mean, if you put this up against Harbinger, there's no friggin way you could even think it was in the same league!

[mrozisik]

Overall, I think Shadowman sort of lacked some of the originality I saw in the other VEI titles. It felt like a superhero title I could find at either of the big two.

I think that hits the nail on the head. Uninspired. Though, great art. I mean, if you put this up against Harbinger, there's no friggin way you could even think it was in the same league!

I am glad you mentioned it. Shadowman has an uninspired writer but a solid art team, Harbinger has a super inspired writer with incredible mediocre artwork. Could they not afford proper artists on one of their flagship books?

I find it bizzare, as the art on ALL the titles except Harbinger has been above average. Khari Evans, Philippe Briones?

Harbinger is the only VE title I have not actively seeked to buy the original art for. Can do with an improvement.

[Xtianhardy]

the problem is less to do with art, more to do with the story. This is one title in VE that needs a new writer, asap.

I looked at the track record of Justin Jordan. He hasn't written anything of any significance before joining Valiant. And he is continuing that trend.

They must find a better replacement for Justin Jordan quickly to save this title from mediocracy.

While I agree with you regarding Jordan's work on this book it's wrong to suggest that he hadn't written anything of significance before Shadowman. The Strange Talent of Luther Strode , which he wrote for Image, was a critical hit and sold very well for a creator-owned book by a new writer. The sequel to that miniseries, The Legend of Luther Strode, has sold very well and has continued to receive positive reviews from critics. I may not be a fan of Shadowman, but Luther Strode is great and Jordan is definitely worth my respect as a fan for writing it.

[mrozisik]

the problem is less to do with art, more to do with the story. This is one title in VE that needs a new writer, asap.

I looked at the track record of Justin Jordan. He hasn't written anything of any significance before joining Valiant. And he is continuing that trend.

They must find a better replacement for Justin Jordan quickly to save this title from mediocracy.

While I agree with you regarding Jordan's work on this book it's wrong to suggest that he hadn't written anything of significance before Shadowman. The Strange Talent of Luther Strode , which he wrote for Image, was a critical hit and sold very well for a creator-owned book by a new writer. The sequel to that miniseries, The Legend of Luther Strode, has sold very well and has continued to receive positive reviews from critics. I may not be a fan of Shadowman, but Luther Strode is great and Jordan is definitely worth my respect as a fan for writing it.

I have not read his work with Image. I have, however, read his work with DC, and it was no different to what he is doing with Shadowman. That title deserves a better writer, quickly, before they lose the good will of the fans.

[erwinrafael]

Overall, I think Shadowman sort of lacked some of the originality I saw in the other VEI titles. It felt like a superhero title I could find at either of the big two.

I think that hits the nail on the head. Uninspired. Though, great art. I mean, if you put this up against Harbinger, there's no friggin way you could even think it was in the same league!

I am glad you mentioned it. Shadowman has an uninspired writer but a solid art team, Harbinger has a super inspired writer with incredible mediocre artwork. Could they not afford proper artists on one of their flagship books?

I find it bizzare, as the art on ALL the titles except Harbinger has been above average. Khari Evans, Philippe Briones?

Harbinger is the only VE title I have not actively seeked to buy the original art for. Can do with an improvement.

Mediocre artwork on Harbinger? For eye candy purposes, sure. But for comic book storytelling purposes, the Harbinger art team is good. I am sorry to sound like a technical elitist but really, looking at pretty pictures as the standard for judging the art in a comic book is so 1990s.

[mrozisik]

Overall, I think Shadowman sort of lacked some of the originality I saw in the other VEI titles. It felt like a superhero title I could find at either of the big two.

I think that hits the nail on the head. Uninspired. Though, great art. I mean, if you put this up against Harbinger, there's no friggin way you could even think it was in the same league!

I am glad you mentioned it. Shadowman has an uninspired writer but a solid art team, Harbinger has a super inspired writer with incredible mediocre artwork. Could they not afford proper artists on one of their flagship books?

I find it bizzare, as the art on ALL the titles except Harbinger has been above average. Khari Evans, Philippe Briones?

Harbinger is the only VE title I have not actively seeked to buy the original art for. Can do with an improvement.

Mediocre artwork on Harbinger? For eye candy purposes, sure. But for comic book storytelling purposes, the Harbinger art team is good. I am sorry to sound like a technical elitist but really, looking at pretty pictures as the standard for judging the art in a comic book is so 1990s.

Comics is a visual medium. It doesn't have to look pretty, but it has to appeal to me on a visual basis. Harbinger artwork is sub par at the moment. VE is able to afford the likes of Cary Nord, Clayton Henry, Emanuella Luppachino, Lee Garbett...so they can afford better with Harbinger, especially as it is written so well.

[bygranddesign]

Shadowman is merely average as a superhero comic, and its a failure as a horror comic. Feel free to argue that Shadowman is not meant to be a horror-title, but then what is it supposed to be? A supernatural superhero comic? I already read The Darkness, which is ostensibly a supernatural superhero book, and David Hine is killing it on that title by taking it back to its horror roots. Swamp Thing seems to be heading back into the horror direction as well. I doubt Spawn fans are going to check this out as its neither as dark nor as established as that title.

I was hopeful about this book after #5 but the latest issue was a letdown of both story and art. I've gone back and forth on this title since it came out, and I think 6 issues is all I need to read to be certain that there are better books I could be reading ("Hey there, Abe Sapien #1! Oh hai American Vampire").

Check out the 5 page preview for Shadowman #0. I think you'll enjoy it, I think it's the style that you might be looking for. Its got a gothic noir feel to it that I think would fit perfectly for this title moving forward. I'm really loving it ... and i'm hoping mico suayan or de la torre become the permanent artists. Hairsine would be good too ... his preview pages for Harbinger #11 also have a noir feel to it that would work for Shadowman.

I think the feel of the book should be a gritty, noir, crimefighter with supernatural/dark magic/voodoo overtones.

Like Batman but with magic not gadgets.

[KXXX]

I just went trhough and read the whole run again.

First off... some of the dialogue is just bad, cliche even. This book needs to ditch the humor that's being forced through and carry a more serious tone. I also don't like the way some things are explained. The Necromantic energy idea is cool, but the whole 'explaining what's going on as it's happening' pattern is a let-down in any book. This was especially bad during the showdown at the end of issue #4 and during Dr. Mirage's intorduction.

I also think there too much in the pot. From an overall, company-wide perspective, bringing Darque back was a great idea. He just doesn't work in the book the way he was introduced and how early. He's lumped in with a whole bunch of other things we're only getting glimpses of, leaving a shallow and unclear impression. Dox shows us that there were more Shadowmen and that they fight evil. Wanna be a little more clear? Could you maybe elaborate a little bit?

Jack needs to settle into being angry when he's Shadowman. The whole "You would hurt mine?" attitude was great, I'd love to see Shadowman being an angry and fierce being with an alpha dog streak.

It goes with the dialogue and Jack... but the tone of this book needs to veer into seriousness quick. Twist was goofy. I didn't care the first issue or two, but really... he's a devourer of souls and a warped construct built for the purpose of acting as a bridge between realms. He should (have) act(ed) like it.

[blujay]

I think people are a little hard on Shadowman. By issue #5 I wasn't completely sold on A&A yet, I think it just needs more time to develop. This book is very decompressed so it may take awhile for Justin to explore all of the details we want him to get to. However...

What I'd like to see is:
1. Darker/Grittier Tone (This book is currently less dark than Bloodshot/Harbinger.)

2. More Horror Oriented (we're getting there, however I'd like to get closer to Acclaim Shadowman). Unlike a lot of the board, I actually like "superhero" books and I'm glad this is a superhero book, that being said this book should strive to fill a(n) unique niche like all of the other books in the valiant line. This should be Valiant's Animal Man/Swamp Thing/American Vampire/Blade/Hellblazer/etc.

3. Make Shadowman Angry and, more importantly, make Shadowman more of a curse than a blessing. I don't mind that Jack is kind of goofy but Shadowman should be a completely different beast. Shadowman should have serious rage issues, it would give Jack something to struggle with. So far being Shadowman doesn't seem like it has its downsides.

4. Darque gone Wild. Everybody in the VU is terrified of Master Darque, I think it's time to see why. Darque is a great character and he has potential to be an icon, it's time to crank up the evil/crazy on this guy.

I won't say I'm underwhelmed by it, I just want it to surpass the original as quick as the others did (for me anyways). This book has massive potential and such a rich atmosphere and, like all of you, I only want it to be the best that it can be

[dornwolf]

3. Make Shadowman Angry and, more importantly, make Shadowman more of a curse than a blessing. I don't mind that Jack is kind of goofy but Shadowman should be a completely different beast. Shadowman should have serious rage issues, it would give Jack something to struggle with. So far being Shadowman doesn't seem like it has its downsides.

I've finally tracked down earlier VH-1 era Shadowman and this stands out the most. Shadowman came off angry and Jack completely unhinged basically unable to control his powers and constantly lamenting the curse. The new Jack is basically rolling with the punches easily and just using the powers. He needs to lose control or have none at all

[pixierosa]

3. Make Shadowman Angry and, more importantly, make Shadowman more of a curse than a blessing. I don't mind that Jack is kind of goofy but Shadowman should be a completely different beast. Shadowman should have serious rage issues, it would give Jack something to struggle with. So far being Shadowman doesn't seem like it has its downsides.

I've finally tracked down earlier VH-1 era Shadowman and this stands out the most. Shadowman came off angry and Jack completely unhinged basically unable to control his powers and constantly lamenting the curse. The new Jack is basically rolling with the punches easily and just using the powers. He needs to lose control or have none at all

Couple thoughts here...
I agree that I'd like to see more of Shadowman himself, more about Jack, too. I thought when he was bashing in the guy's head at the diner that we were starting to see control slip, but Shadowman listened to Alyssa when she told him to stop. Could be this version of Shadowman is less feral and is more aware of his purpose.

I am wondering about the whole training that the previous Shadowman "hosts" have had. Was it training in fighting, strategy, magicks, or did it also include training on how to handle being the host and not being overwhelmed? If so, then I would think we would definitely see Shadowman and Jack struggling for dominance. The original Jack had this struggle, but he also had the daytime which inhibited Shadowman and allowed him to function somewhat normally. Doesn't seem to be the case here (the day/night issue), otherwise having an internal power struggle between the two would have needed to be the focus of the early books rather than Darque/Twist.

I don't mind not having an initial epic power struggle between Shadowman and Jack's personalities. I would like to see/learn more about how they work and don't work together. But this type of
"host" dual nature thing has been done so many times in the past (Hulk, Angel, etc) that making it a part of a story rather than the arc focus (especially in the early stages of the book) might not be as interesting to horror/action fans as combining it with conflict from the get-go.