Thinking about what books will matter to Valiant 2012...

iggy101us · Post by **iggy101us** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:00 pm

sanman wrote:
xodacia81 wrote:
iggy101us wrote:What about Playing God? I thought that it was written with the possibility that it can be part of continuity.
We shall see.
I didn't know this was a possibility.

http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29432

dellamorte wrote:The story does take place in '97, a time after the original Valiant line had ceased publishing and I would think prior to any relaunch that might be in continuity with the original Valiant stories.

We were very careful in what we did and who we did it with so that the story could be in continuity. I tried to write some things that could be parts of other big lost story lines just in case VEI chose to include the story in continuity. These things were minor in the Playing God story (Why was Sting where he was?, What was going on in the Lost Land? Just what were Gunny and Clay going to help Otherman with? and a few others I can't think of right now.) but would have been important to the overall universe story line if it was being told at the time.

The short answer is it could be in continuity if VEI wants it to be.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:13 pm

Wow, and to think I thought I was just supporting a great fan project.

MoonChild · Post by **MoonChild** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:35 pm

Well put, totally agree, also agree with wrunow's comment. I hope they can and will use Phil. Shooter mentioned owning some things Valiant, not sure if Phil is one of them.

Jersen wrote:I'm really interested to see how the Valiant 2012 Universe is handled. It seems like it would be very difficult and overly complicated to take a sort of "pick up where we left off" type of approach, even if it were picking some arbitrary point in continuity and starting from there, ignoring everything in the original Valiant Universe that came after that point.

I think it would be a much better idea to make a fresh start with the properties that they still own, which would not only make this relaunch very new-reader-friendly, but will afford the publisher the opportunity to incorporate or ignore different aspects/issues that they feel will make their books and continuity as strong as possible (One example might be to actually have Sting as a homosexual this time around, or to tie Ivar more seamlessly into Gilad and Aram's family history--I've always thought that he was one of the most ham-fisted retcons in EARLY Valiant).

It seems like VEI recognizes the strong potential they have with their properties--even in the absence of the GK3--and I can see massive possibilities for a continuity that is just as strong as Shooter's tenure that is built more on the immortal brothers, Harbinger/H.A.R.D.Corps, X-O, and Bloodshot/Rai instead of Magnus and Solar.

I also think that it speaks to the strength of Valiant's original properties that the three headline villains of Valiant--Harada, Master Darque, and the Spider Aliens--did not rely on any of the GK properties to work.

greg · Post by **greg** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:45 pm

MoonChild wrote:I hope they can and will use Phil. Shooter mentioned owning some things Valiant, not sure if Phil is one of them.

Phil Seleski as a name is probably owned by Valiant, but his origin is a nuclear accident that gives him god-like power.
That's Dr. Solar, Man of the Atom.

What does he wear while he's doing these god-like things? A red suit... Dr. Solar's suit.

It would be unwise for Valiant to do anything that could start another lawsuit.

Changing Phil Seleski's origin would be a possibility,
not having him wear the suit would be a possibility...
but if you change the origin and the appearance,
then why would he need to be named Phil Seleski?

xodacia81 · Post by **xodacia81** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:50 pm

greg wrote:
MoonChild wrote:I hope they can and will use Phil. Shooter mentioned owning some things Valiant, not sure if Phil is one of them.
Phil Seleski as a name is probably owned by Valiant, but his origin is a nuclear accident that gives him god-like power.
That's Dr. Solar, Man of the Atom.

What does he wear while he's doing these god-like things? A red suit... Dr. Solar's suit.

It would be unwise for Valiant to do anything that could start another lawsuit.

Changing Phil Seleski's origin would be a possibility,
not having him wear the suit would be a possibility...
but if you change the origin and the appearance,
then why would he need to be named Phil Seleski?

He could be a nuclear scientist that gets involved in a deal with Doctor Silk and Ninjak has to go after him. All 3 die. Very sad. Except for the audience. Then we are all happy.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:50 pm

I'm kind of picking a few oddballs here, but here are a few things that I thought were really good about the VU that were brief:

- Shadowman 11 - Death runners - this is a concept that is pretty cool and more could be done with it.

- Harbinger 28 - Origin of Butch. This was one of very few characters in the VU that had a back story and it was a pretty good one. More back stories to connect your readers to the characters, please.

- Secret Weapons #1 - or at least the concept of a team book. I think they just tried way too much to make this a star studded book like JL or Avengers. This book was good when the focus was on Stronghold and Livewire with others moving into and out of the story.

One thing that I could completely do without in the new VU is Dr. Eclipse. He is the epitome of lame and cliche.

MoonChild · Post by **MoonChild** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:17 pm

Well Harada Showed up in the DK books so Id say fair game or maybe that's being crule, lol. anyway Phil could have had that happen to him and him not turn into solar, he could chose something different and just be himself at first.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:30 pm

Jay Tomio wrote:It's just a good move to not have strings attached even if you could get the license. As a new start-up a license is problematic if it doesn't come with a base worth talking about (Gold Key is obviously not Star Wars). I realize obviously that the license wouldn't cost nearly as much, but I think we can all agree that not enough people go "Holy *SQUEE*, it's Magnus and Solar" and order enough books to get by, especially a new start-up. If it was FREE I could see it, but why pay for something that really isn't going to help your bottom line in any significant way. If anything, at this point it would confuse people and I think you can use the departure as a natural break from your past work, both creatively and with your marketing. The proof is in the pudding right now, the GK characters last seen weren't blowing up the comics world.

You make a good point about the GK characters and the DH fiasco, but I think they would fare better if they were back in the VU. It was the perfect fit for the Magnus and Solar and they were a huge driving force in the early Valiant. Magnus and Solar on their own are not that captivating, but put them into a mix of other great characters and they really shine. Turok never really found a place in the VU and definitely did not live up his potential, but Magnus and Solar made a big impact. Dark Horse really seems to be dropping the ball with the rights and that's a shame. They deserve better.

400yrs · Post by **400yrs** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:40 pm

I've said it before, but I'd rather not see them in the new VU after the DH cluster****. If they want to continue the future line, they could build around Rai or even create new characters. I'm really hoping for alot of new characters. Re-hashing with the same old, same old isn't going to allow this line to make it.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:40 am

Jay Tomio wrote: Daniel, You're hitting on something I'm in the middle of blogging about that of that relates to both what you said something 400 said in another post (all by chance, they are actually quite unrelated thoughts). I'll pm you when I get done, because I'd like your thoughts.

I will say this though. While I think no one can discount the relevance of Solar and Magnus, and the classic stories they brought to the VALIANT U, I think we did see their "worth" in terms today's market, or at least something really close to it. I think there's very little question that Dark Horse has an established infrastructure and base (how big or little is debatable, but I think we can all admit they aren't at Kinkos printing comics) and they even got THE name associated with the characters to bring them back. I don't think the comic market works like "oh, it's with VALIANT now, let's order 10 more copies per LCS". While I admit that has nothing to do with the quality of the comics, I also don't think LCS ordering on a relaunch has anything to do with the quality of comics either.

If VALIANT is depending on the base that yearns for the old Solar and Magnus days, THAT is a mistake IMHO and one that actually has extra cost and risk attached to it.

Getting a lot of ideas though, let me get back to this later, I have some more thoughts on this!

The comic book landscape has changed since the launch of those early Valiant titles, that's for certain. This is not the best time to be in the comic industry unless you're in the movie business as well. Without the GK characters they have a tough void to fill, but it can be done. I'm not saying that VEI should go back to the exact way they were doing things at the early Valiant, but having Magnus and Solar in the mix would have went a long way to ensuring success, IMO.

I do see some of your concerns though and bringing a modern touch to the books is going to be their benefit, but in doing so I hope they don't lose what made Valiant unique.

Acclaim tried to modernize and revamp the characters and it flopped big time. Following that kind of path will lead to a very short relaunch. Acclaim did get a few things right though and in some cases the characters and premises were better. Hopefully they can find the right balance to make a successful new line of books.

iggy101us · Post by **iggy101us** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:43 am

I like Acclaim Master Darque and Q&W. Hope VEI can use them somehow.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:54 am

iggy101us wrote:I like Acclaim Master Darque and Q&W. Hope VEI can use them somehow.

Indeed. I also really enjoyed the Deadside premise of Shadowman and the Fireseed lineage/light burden for Turok. Even without Turok in the picture, the story stands well on it's own. It would also be nice to see them use Dr. Tomorrow as well.

iggy101us · Post by **iggy101us** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:00 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
iggy101us wrote:I like Acclaim Master Darque and Q&W. Hope VEI can use them somehow.
Indeed. I also really enjoyed the Deadside premise of Shadowman and the Fireseed lineage/light burden for Turok. Even without Turok in the picture, the story stands well on it's own. It would also be nice to see them use Dr. Tomorrow as well.

Yes, Deadside was pretty good. I thought Dr Tomorrow was just OK, better than some other Acclaim properties but not top tier.

I don't know if VEI will use any characters with the slightest ties or similarities to the GK characters at this point for fear of any possible legal actions.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:09 pm

If they use the Acclaim version of Shadowman, that might turn me off of the whole line.

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:06 pm

Daniel Jackson wrote:
Jay Tomio wrote: Daniel, You're hitting on something I'm in the middle of blogging about that of that relates to both what you said something 400 said in another post (all by chance, they are actually quite unrelated thoughts). I'll pm you when I get done, because I'd like your thoughts.

I will say this though. While I think no one can discount the relevance of Solar and Magnus, and the classic stories they brought to the VALIANT U, I think we did see their "worth" in terms today's market, or at least something really close to it. I think there's very little question that Dark Horse has an established infrastructure and base (how big or little is debatable, but I think we can all admit they aren't at Kinkos printing comics) and they even got THE name associated with the characters to bring them back. I don't think the comic market works like "oh, it's with VALIANT now, let's order 10 more copies per LCS". While I admit that has nothing to do with the quality of the comics, I also don't think LCS ordering on a relaunch has anything to do with the quality of comics either.

If VALIANT is depending on the base that yearns for the old Solar and Magnus days, THAT is a mistake IMHO and one that actually has extra cost and risk attached to it.

Getting a lot of ideas though, let me get back to this later, I have some more thoughts on this!
The comic book landscape has changed since the launch of those early Valiant titles, that's for certain. This is not the best time to be in the comic industry unless you're in the movie business as well. Without the GK characters they have a tough void to fill, but it can be done. I'm not saying that VEI should go back to the exact way they were doing things at the early Valiant, but having Magnus and Solar in the mix would have went a long way to ensuring success, IMO.

I do see some of your concerns though and bringing a modern touch to the books is going to be their benefit, but in doing so I hope they don't lose what made Valiant unique.

Acclaim tried to modernize and revamp the characters and it flopped big time. Following that kind of path will lead to a very short relaunch. Acclaim did get a few things right though and in some cases the characters and premises were better. Hopefully they can find the right balance to make a successful new line of books.

I think that Daniel and Jay have a good idea here. The 'landscape' being changed is a major factor IMO. That has been seen recently with the reimaginings of Solar, Magnus and Turok. When Valiant launched with the old GK characters I believe that there were many readers out there that had a strong memory of Solar and Magnus from GK. This fond memory brought many readers back to comics that might have strayed for whatever reasons or were not particularly pleased with stories coming out of Marvel and DC. So, you had this 'hey I remember Solar and Magnus' from when I was a kid fans picking up these stories with the addition of new readers like (I imagine) many of us. I can speak for myself only but I did not grow up on Magnus or Solar. Heck, I did not even hear of them until I saw them on a Valiant book. But Valiant started taking off with its small reader base perhaps built mainly of 'fond memory readers' and then a fast growing new reader base. The books blew up onto the scene... and it was good. For a while and we know how it all ended.

Now we fast forward to today... and as Daniel said, the landscape has changed. And part of that change does NOT include those 'fond memory readers' and the 'older readers' from the early Valiant days. What is left is a group of readers (and dealers) that remember being burnt by Valiant and it's bloody demise. The 'new' readers of today that are picking up the DH Solar and Magnus books are exactly that... 'new'. Do these characters have the same 'magic' that they did during the 60s or when Valiant had them in the early 90s ? Sadly, I do not think they can stand up in a new comic book landscape. They are not memorable enough.

While it might be nice to have the GK characters in a new Valiant Universe, they are not the cornerstones OF the Valiant Universe. The New VU can launch and do just as well without them. And after the mess with Dark Horse, having these characters in the new VU would hinder the line more than help it. (IMO)

As for a starting off point with the new VU... I have brought this up before. An 'Ultimate Valiant' is a pretty good idea. You can start things up just like the Ultimates line. It was only retelling the same stories and moving them to a more current time. It is updating the stories to make them more relevant to today's readers. 'Old readers' will remember the stories and 'should' take well to the new versions the same way that many 'old readers' are taking to all of the superhero movies. These movies have the same story but are now set in modern times with a change here and there to accommodate the suspension of belief. I do not think that modernizing the Valiant Universe is going to hurt it in the least. In fact, it MUST be modernized as comics from the early 90s read much differently than the comics of today. I read a 90s Valiant comic and I like it but I also admit that it seems a bit hokey by today's standards. A modernized Valiant ? Armstrong with a new haircut ? Bloodshot with new gen weapons ? I'll buy that.

And as for the problem of 'where' to start or 'what to forget' or 'what to keep'... THIS IS THE EASIEST OF TASKS. Valiant has a clean slate in which to work from because they were GIVEN a 'do over' by Bob Layton. (WARNING * IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE FINAL ISSUE OF X-O MANOWAR STOP READING NOW * WARNING) Bob Layton gave the ultimate do over to both fans, current creators and future creators alike.... he saw the MESS that things had become and wrote what I consider a 'I'm sorry that things got to this point, here is the best thing I can do to fix this comic'. In the last issue of X-O Manowar, Aric wakes up to find that he is BACK in his own time in a centuries spanning JR Ewing moment... people, it was all just a dream. Aric predates everyone and who is to say that ALL of the Valiant 90s universe were not part of Aric's dream ? (Eternal Warrior and Armstrong could of even been a part of this dream). My point is, Layton gave them this 'it was all a dream' ending so that now all VEI has to do is pick things up from that point and move forward WITH EASE. They can retell the Valiant story in a modern time, rework it for a new world and pick and choose what they want to keep and what they want to throw away from Aric's dream (uh, X-O bicycle is a good choice to 'get rid of' i.e. THAT was a bad dream).

I will be very interested to see how all of this plays out. Peter Cuneo had his hand in a 'new vision of heroes' in the Marvel Universe. I believe that there were many parts of that new story about old characters was successful and to drive that statement home even further, look at the new Marvel movies... (IMO) they are taking on the characteristics of an Ultimate Marvel Universe in both origins of the characters and the new styles of their costumes. Cuneo could VERY well be a good helmsman in directing the Valiant flagship titles in the same direction in both the comics and movie industries.

So, I am ready VALIANT... Impress me.

iggy101us · Post by **iggy101us** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:18 pm

Good post, Knightt.

Don't forget that Fabian Nicieza also contributed to a clean slate ala Bad Eggs - Dirty Yellow Mustard #4.

dhudson1 · Post by **dhudson1** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:16 pm

Bottom line: Good stories with good continuity plus good shipping schedule = my support.

The DH failure with the GK characters, I feel is still majorly related to poor shipping schedules. You cannot build a fan base with that kind of delay.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:43 pm

dhudson1 wrote:
The DH failure with the GK characters, I feel is still majorly related to poor shipping schedules. You cannot build a fan base with that kind of delay.

They sure have been very amateurish in the way they've handled the new line, that's for sure. Hardly what you would expect from a company like Dark Horse.

Heath · Post by **Heath** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:55 pm

I think the Dark Horse/Gold Key books "failed" for several reasons. Shipping schedule was definitely a big reason.

But I think (and I may take some heat for this) Jim Shooter's writing style is also to blame. He tells a GREAT story over time, but I think he's slow to get going. He spends a lot of time laying a lot of groundwork. So those first few books come across as being slow paced.

And thirdly, there were times, especially with Magnus, that I felt I was just reading early Valiant all over again. While not necessarily a bad thing, it just seemed like the TV version of a rerun. There didn't seem to be much originality. I think this improved greatly with Solar, but not so much with Magnus.

So you have delayed shipping, slow plots, and books you felt like you've read before.

Burrito Boy · Post by **Burrito Boy** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:17 pm

Knightt wrote:
Now we fast forward to today... and as Daniel said, the landscape has changed. And part of that change does NOT include those 'fond memory readers' and the 'older readers' from the early Valiant days. What is left is a group of readers (and dealers) that remember being burnt by Valiant and it's bloody demise. The 'new' readers of today that are picking up the DH Solar and Magnus books are exactly that... 'new'. Do these characters have the same 'magic' that they did during the 60s or when Valiant had them in the early 90s ? Sadly, I do not think they can stand up in a new comic book landscape. They are not memorable enough.

I think I'm in the minority on this because the Valiant characters are more memorable to me than anything from Marvel or DC aside from say The Warlord or Amethyst.

And maybe The Hulk, but that's because I watched the cartoon when I was a kid, not because I read the comics. I've tried to get into some of the major Marvel and DC characters but they don't do anything for me. Just recently I read a couple of X-Men "Marvel Backpacks" (I think that's what they were called) and they bored me to death. I actually had to force myself to finish them. At any rate, I'm sure you're right for the most part but I just wanted to show that there are freaks like me who can't get into most comics outside of Valiant. Of course there aren't enough people like me to make much difference. I wish there were.

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:42 pm

Heath wrote:I think the Dark Horse/Gold Key books "failed" for several reasons. Shipping schedule was definitely a big reason.

But I think (and I may take some heat for this) Jim Shooter's writing style is also to blame. He tells a GREAT story over time, but I think he's slow to get going. He spends a lot of time laying a lot of groundwork. So those first few books come across as being slow paced.

Makes you wonder if Jim would stepped things up a bit if he knew how long it would be between issues.

Blood of Heroes · Post by **Blood of Heroes** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:57 pm

Knightt wrote: In the last issue of X-O Manowar, Aric wakes up to find that he is BACK in his own time in a centuries spanning JR Ewing moment... people, it was all just a dream.

Wait, what?

Really?

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:19 pm

Blood of Heroes wrote:
Knightt wrote: In the last issue of X-O Manowar, Aric wakes up to find that he is BACK in his own time in a centuries spanning JR Ewing moment... people, it was all just a dream.

Wait, what?

Really?

Yeah, kinda something like that... 'not quite' so that nobody heeding the spoiler warning would get the entire story.

Crow331 · Post by **Crow331** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:52 pm

Heath wrote:If they use the Acclaim version of Shadowman, that might turn me off of the whole line.

I did not like or "get" Acclaim's Shadowman

Knightt · Post by **Knightt** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:19 pm

I really hope that there is a VALIANT universe and any Acclaim will be handled outside of VALIANT continuity.

Just trying to be a purist here.