Next "new" story?

[BloodOfHeroes]

I think a female Rai would certainly be interesting...no reason that it couldn't be done.
Chris

I'd love to see what St Pierre could do. Read some intriguing hints of what might have been (and what could yet be) here.

[ManofTheAtom]

I think a female Rai would certainly be interesting...no reason that it couldn't be done.
Chris

I'd love to see what St Pierre could do. Read some intriguing hints of what might have been (and what could yet be) here.

NIO = Blah

Statue of Previous Rai = Potential.

[ManofTheAtom]

Hey, BOH.

You know that quote you like to use about insanity and doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result?

Ever considered applying that to VH 2 and VH 3?

Just look at the picture of the three Bloodshots on your site

What I mean is that aren't VH 2 and VH 3 just multiple attempts to reach a different result (turn VH 2's failure into VH 3 success similar to original VALIANT's success)?

[BloodOfHeroes]

MOTA,

I'm a big believer in Einstein's definition of insanity.

At the time VH-2 was tried, re-doing VH-1 would have been insanity.

I think VH-2 failed because too many people thought it *was* VALIANT [and stayed away] and not because a few hundred thought it *wasn't* [and dropped the titles]. The orders were never there in the first place, in large part because the "typical" comics reader thought it was VALIANT, back from the grave. Re-read the letters pages from those early VH-2 issues to see what I mean.

VEI is taking a different approach than both post-Shooter VALIANT and Acclaim did. I'm very impressed with their overall strategy and patience, so far.

Only time will tell if the third time will indeed be the charm. I know we're all predicting a victory this time around. But VEI seems far from "insane" to date. Start with the titles and issues that had large followings, re-publish, regain interest and see what happens. Picking up with Bloodshot #52 would just result in the same lackluster response. Even the favorable reviews for HARB & X-O all talk about the drop in quality. VEI is working to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Bring on the animated Rai series! I'm ready for it!



BoH

[superman-prime]

I think shadowman will be Darque
and Rai should be Grandmother kinda a evolution to how she bacame and meat 1-a

I always liked the early Rai stuff

[ManofTheAtom]

Picking up with Bloodshot #52 would just result in the same lackluster response.
BoH

That's not going to happen. Don't expect to see a "Quantum & Woody #32"-style scenario.

The numbering will most likely not be continued, but the CONTENT can follow up from where the issues left off.

That's what Shooter did with Magnus.

Let's not forget that Shooter's original plan for the super hero universe was to publish "Magnus trades" that would bring people up to speed on character and concepts before they rolled out of the "new material" (and that new material was not a reboot, it was a continuation of the stories found in the trades).

What is VEI doing if not following up on Shooter's original idea?

They started out by releasing hardcovers of the original material to bring new readers up to speed and introduce the characters and concepts before they roll out the new material.

Hopefully that new material will NOT be a reboot as well and it'll continue the story from where it left off.

Like I said in another thread, considering the era in which the original Magnus comics were published, it's very likely that at least one of those stories had ideas that were worse than the X-O bike or even a four-legged beast on a first name basis... I can't finish that sentence with a straight face. Not even the 60's were that stupid...

Anyway, it is likely that at least one Magnus comic had a worse idea than the X-O bike, but for Shooter that did not disqualify it from being in continuity and it still counted, he just didn't bring it up.

VEI can do the same. Yes, the X-O bike is in continuity, no it doesn't matter one way or another.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Picking up with Bloodshot #52 would just result in the same lackluster response.
BoH

That's not going to happen. Don't expect to see a "Quantum & Woody #32"-style scenario.

I don't. For that, you see, would be insane.

[ManofTheAtom]

One thing I'd like to do is to stop talking about VEI's upcoming material in the abstract, like we don't know what they're going to do.

We already know what they are doing thanks to the stories in the hardcovers.

They are filling in holes in established VALIANT continuity with stories that enhance the origins and roles of established characters (like Harada and Lydia), as well as introducing characters that will be important for the VALIANT Universe (like Rowena and Noriko).

These stories give us a concrete idea of what VEI is doing, the only question is where things will stand, continuity-wise, when the new line relaunches.

If these stories and characters, as the information that VEI has released thus far, will trully be important for VALIANT continuity, the question is where that continuity will start from.

A reboot has to be out of the question because if they reboot then these stories will loose their importance and the expense of buying the hardcovers solely for the stories will anger the readers (and the last thing that VEI needs is to look bad in the customer base's eyes. They cannot and must not appear to be doing these expensive hardcovers solely for the profit and sell them under false pretenses).

So, with a reboot out of the question, and new stories and characters that have been promised to be important for the future of VALIANT continuity, the question is "where will that continuity start".

There are those who feel very strongly that it should start after Unity, mostly because A) that was when Shooter left and these readers propose the universe lost its focus, and B) because they don't think that the stories and characters that followed (i.e. Armorines, Visitor, X-O bike, etc) fit within the VALIANT idea.

There are many problems with picking up after Unity.

For one thing, the event took place in 1992, so the only way to pick up from there would be to have the new material take place in the early 90's.

Another option would be for the characters to come out of Unity in 2009 due to something Solar did... but such a move would be extremely anti-dramatic and lame.

Take Shadowman for instance. In Unity he learns that he's going to die in 99 only to return from the Lost Land a decade after his supposed death.

Then there's Harbinger and Pete's conflict with Harada. The notion that Harada would not have conquered the world in the decade since Pete and the others vanished is ridicolous.

That's just two reasons why picking up after Unity with the heroes arriving in the present doesn't work.

The reason why picking up after Unity with the heroes arriving in 92 doesn't work because that would be a move that would be severely anti-VALIANT as far as the real time aspect of the story is concerned.

A third option would be to pick up after Unity with the heroes arriving in 92 and then jump 17 years into the future and pretending that some published stories happened and others didn't... but that would really suck.

Picking up after Unity simply doesn't track.

That discounts a reboot and picking up after Unity, leaving picking up a decade after the cliffhangers and cancelation of the series.

[BloodOfHeroes]

I think you're going to be a very surprised and shaken man when VEI finally rolls out full-scale, MOTA.

As I've said before there are no favourites, no extra information given to anyone save project specific work such as Mota and the Book of Geomancer wiki, Greg and the integration of the message board. Those who claim to know something that is not public are misinformed.

(viewtopic.php?t=20652)
I can easily think of at least 5 ways VEI might do something differently than you've outlined here.

[Ryan]

One thing I'd like to do is to stop talking about VEI's upcoming material in the abstract, like we don't know what they're going to do.

We already know what they are doing thanks to the stories in the hardcovers.

They are filling in holes in established VALIANT continuity with stories that enhance the origins and roles of established characters (like Harada and Lydia), as well as introducing characters that will be important for the VALIANT Universe (like Rowena and Noriko).

These stories give us a concrete idea of what VEI is doing, the only question is where things will stand, continuity-wise, when the new line relaunches.

If these stories and characters, as the information that VEI has released thus far, will trully be important for VALIANT continuity, the question is where that continuity will start from.

A reboot has to be out of the question because if they reboot then these stories will loose their importance and the expense of buying the hardcovers solely for the stories will anger the readers (and the last thing that VEI needs is to look bad in the customer base's eyes. They cannot and must not appear to be doing these expensive hardcovers solely for the profit and sell them under false pretenses).

So, with a reboot out of the question, and new stories and characters that have been promised to be important for the future of VALIANT continuity, the question is "where will that continuity start".

There are those who feel very strongly that it should start after Unity, mostly because A) that was when Shooter left and these readers propose the universe lost its focus, and B) because they don't think that the stories and characters that followed (i.e. Armorines, Visitor, X-O bike, etc) fit within the VALIANT idea.

There are many problems with picking up after Unity.

For one thing, the event took place in 1992, so the only way to pick up from there would be to have the new material take place in the early 90's.

Another option would be for the characters to come out of Unity in 2009 due to something Solar did... but such a move would be extremely anti-dramatic and lame.

Take Shadowman for instance. In Unity he learns that he's going to die in 99 only to return from the Lost Land a decade after his supposed death.

Then there's Harbinger and Pete's conflict with Harada. The notion that Harada would not have conquered the world in the decade since Pete and the others vanished is ridicolous.

That's just two reasons why picking up after Unity with the heroes arriving in the present doesn't work.

The reason why picking up after Unity with the heroes arriving in 92 doesn't work because that would be a move that would be severely anti-VALIANT as far as the real time aspect of the story is concerned.

A third option would be to pick up after Unity with the heroes arriving in 92 and then jump 17 years into the future and pretending that some published stories happened and others didn't... but that would really suck.

Picking up after Unity simply doesn't track.

That discounts a reboot and picking up after Unity, leaving picking up a decade after the cliffhangers and cancelation of the series.

good read. There's also VH-Shooter from Unity 2k which was the Valiant universe as they would have been in 2000 if Shooter had stayed post-1993. There could be something like that, but I think that would only happen if Shooter got total editorial control again, which I don't see happening.

and welcome back dude

[ManofTheAtom]

I think you're going to be a very surprised and shaken man when VEI finally rolls out full-scale, MOTA.

As I've said before there are no favourites, no extra information given to anyone save project specific work such as Mota and the Book of Geomancer wiki, Greg and the integration of the message board. Those who claim to know something that is not public are misinformed.

(viewtopic.php?t=20652)
I can easily think of at least 5 ways VEI might do something differently than you've outlined here.

Let's clarify that I haven't claimed to know anything.

My analysis is based on my own perspective on what I've seen VEI do (i.e. what everyone else has seen), not on anything I may or may not have been told in relation to my work for the Wiki.

[BloodOfHeroes]

I know you've never claimed to have insider knowledge.

I just think you're oversimplifying things to come up with your conclusion and, as a resultm are bound to be disappointed when we see what VEI has planned for their universe, is all.

[ManofTheAtom]

good read. There's also VH-Shooter from Unity 2k which was the Valiant universe as they would have been in 2000 if Shooter had stayed post-1993. There could be something like that, but I think that would only happen if Shooter got total editorial control again, which I don't see happening.

Exactly, which brings us back to BOH's favorite Eisteinian quote.

If VEI were to pick up after Unity (in any possible configuration) they would just be living up to that quote.

and welcome back dude

[ManofTheAtom]

I know you've never claimed to have insider knowledge.

I just think you're oversimplifying things to come up with your conclusion and, as a resultm are bound to be disappointed when we see what VEI has planned for their universe, is all.

We already saw what VEI has planned for their universe in the new short stories

The lingering question is "when in the VALIANT continuity where these new stories we were told are important for the future of the VALIANT universe will the new comics take place in?"

Were VEI to do a reboot they would be negating the importance of these two stories, so a reboot is definitely out of the question.

That leaves picking up after Unity (which would be a journey into insanity) and picking up after the end of the previous series (a la Magnus #1)

[Ryan]

Exactly, which brings us back to BOH's favorite Eisteinian quote.

If VEI were to pick up after Unity (in any possible configuration) they would just be living up to that quote.

I mean picking up in 2009 but in 'VH-Shooter'. Like I said I don't think that will happen but just another possibility IF Shooter is heavily involved.

So let me see if I understand you right. You're saying there should be a re-launch with new #1's, within VH-1 continuity but not necessarily heavily referencing all of it? Sounds good to me, although there are other ways I would be equally happy with. Actually I would just be happy with good Valiant comics again

[ManofTheAtom]

I mean picking up in 2009 but in 'VH-Shooter'. Like I said I don't think that will happen but just another possibility IF Shooter is heavily involved.

Let's not forget that VH Shooter was designed to reveal that the VALIANT characters were created by an artist in VH 2 with magic ink that Lucifer gave him.

To accept VH Shooter from U2K would be to accept that everything Pre Unity was a comic book world in VH 2 created with tools from Hell.

So let me see if I understand you right. You're saying there should be a re-launch with new #1's, within VH-1 continuity but not necessarily heavily referencing all of it? Sounds good to me, although there are other ways I would be equally happy with.

Exactly, a la Magnus #1.

Actually I would just be happy with good Valiant comics again

I want new VALIANT comics too. For them to be "good" they do need to meet certain conditions in order to be VALIANT stories, heh.

[Ryan]

Let's not forget that VH Shooter was designed to reveal that the VALIANT characters were created by an artist in VH 2 with magic ink that Lucifer gave him.

To accept VH Shooter from U2K would be to accept that everything Pre Unity was a comic book world in VH 2 created with tools from Hell.

Hey I'm not saying it's a good possibility

Exactly, a la Magnus #1.

I want new VALIANT comics too. For them to be "good" they do need to meet certain conditions in order to be VALIANT stories, heh.

true

[BloodOfHeroes]

He would like to reunite and galvanize fans of original work, repackage and preserve the stories in beautiful new packages, and “despite how difficult they are to work with, we’re working with Shooter and Layton to put these packages together.” He told the crowd that fan approval helps when approaching Hollywood. Although in the end, Brett Ratner might have his interpretation of the property, it helps them to show that there is an audience for the concepts and ensures that the fundamental messages, the archetypes, remain true. “Cosmetically, things can change, but we’ll still enjoy what we’re seeing,” Gomez said.

When asked if future Valiant comics would jump ahead in time or pick up where they’d left off, Gomez laughed that he hadn’t “answered that to Valiant yet!” He is conflicted, because as an editor “I saw the big picture coalescing, but there was little the editors could do to stop the sales numbers sliding.” After Birthquake, the company was a mess, in his words, creatively and behind the scenes. He couldn’t blame them for rebooting as Acclaim, but as predicted, inside the company people preferred the original versions. There was a movement in 1999 to tell a story that would bring back the original universe, “combining it with the new aesthetics,” but that storyline never reached fruition. “We love all 600 of you,” he finally admitted, but Valiant has to design something that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, can relate to, so any new comics will probably not pick up exactly where original storylines left off.

[Emphasis added]

[ManofTheAtom]

He would like to reunite and galvanize fans of original work, repackage and preserve the stories in beautiful new packages, and “despite how difficult they are to work with, we’re working with Shooter and Layton to put these packages together.” He told the crowd that fan approval helps when approaching Hollywood. Although in the end, Brett Ratner might have his interpretation of the property, it helps them to show that there is an audience for the concepts and ensures that the fundamental messages, the archetypes, remain true. “Cosmetically, things can change, but we’ll still enjoy what we’re seeing,” Gomez said.

He's talking about the movie.

In the movie Spider-Man had organic web-shooters, but the archetype of the character (i.e. with great power comes great responability, loser-type, etc) was the same.

When the comics tried to imitate the movie and bring organic webshooters in, the fans (whose approval Gomez credits as important) hated it, so now, after the One More Day soft-reboot, Peter is back to having mechanical webshooters.

When asked if future Valiant comics would jump ahead in time or pick up where they’d left off, Gomez laughed that he hadn’t “answered that to Valiant yet!” He is conflicted, because as an editor “I saw the big picture coalescing, but there was little the editors could do to stop the sales numbers sliding.” After Birthquake, the company was a mess, in his words, creatively and behind the scenes. He couldn’t blame them for rebooting as Acclaim, but as predicted, inside the company people preferred the original versions. There was a movement in 1999 to tell a story that would bring back the original universe, “combining it with the new aesthetics,” but that storyline never reached fruition. “We love all 600 of you,” he finally admitted, but Valiant has to design something that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, can relate to, so any new comics will probably not pick up exactly where original storylines left off.

[Emphasis added]

[cjv]

IMO, if there is a big robot guardian of Japan, the first inclination would be to create some sort of robot guardian - something she controlled potentially. Or maybe a freewill that was modified?

That seems to be the first logical step. Why empower a human? (Unless, of course, in creating a robot guardian, something happened that made her realize she NEEDED to empower a human).

Well, Grandmother herself was a giant robot (the Dragon form that expanded to encompass the entire island of Japan), so she wouldn't create another one (she was making herself a giant robot).

Why not?

If a robot works so well (and she clearly thought she worked pretty well) the presumably a smaller, more mobile "guardian robot" might work just as well.

C'mon - you can't just say "so she wouldn't create another one". What's the reasoning? Why not?

Chris

[ManofTheAtom]

Why not?

If a robot works so well (and she clearly thought she worked pretty well) the presumably a smaller, more mobile "guardian robot" might work just as well.

C'mon - you can't just say "so she wouldn't create another one". What's the reasoning? Why not?

Chris

Okay, let's put this in perspective.

We're talking about the VALIANT Universe here, which was "world outside our window, real science, real time", etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

That's the Shooter-molded world in which Grandmother was devised, created, employed, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

Agreed?

Okay, so taking that into consideration, let's analyze the "Grandmother creates a guardian robot"

Grandmother gained frewill in 3050, she was the first of her kind. Simply gaining freewill would not instantly give Grandmother the knowledge to create other freewill bots, so suggesting that she could do it herself is out of the question.

Could someone else have created a freewill robot for Grandmother to alter? Not likely as robots of 1-A's sort did not come into existence until many years after Grandmother gained her freedom.

In that time, Grandmother focused her efforts into expanding herself across Japan, until 3216 when she created the first Rai.

The question here is this;

Did freewill robots exist between 3050 (when Grannie gained freewill) and 3216 (when she created the first Rai)?

I think that the answer is no because, since the VALIANT universe abided by the rules mentioned above, the technology didn't exist yet. (unless there's a comic that contradicts that).

[cjv]

One thing I'd like to do is to stop talking about VEI's upcoming material in the abstract, like we don't know what they're going to do.

We already know what they are doing thanks to the stories in the hardcovers.

They are filling in holes in established VALIANT continuity with stories that enhance the origins and roles of established characters (like Harada and Lydia), as well as introducing characters that will be important for the VALIANT Universe (like Rowena and Noriko).

These stories give us a concrete idea of what VEI is doing, the only question is where things will stand, continuity-wise, when the new line relaunches.

If these stories and characters, as the information that VEI has released thus far, will trully be important for VALIANT continuity, the question is where that continuity will start from.

I agree, but it is possible (albeit highly unlikely IMO) that they are simply doing this to generate some cash, name recognizition, or hype (or all three) and then they will simply go in a completely new direction.

Possible, but highly unlikely in my opinion. I think to do that would alienate fans, who are now expecting something along the lines of the old Valiant.

A reboot has to be out of the question because if they reboot then these stories will loose their importance and the expense of buying the hardcovers solely for the stories will anger the readers (and the last thing that VEI needs is to look bad in the customer base's eyes. They cannot and must not appear to be doing these expensive hardcovers solely for the profit and sell them under false pretenses).

So, with a reboot out of the question, and new stories and characters that have been promised to be important for the future of VALIANT continuity, the question is "where will that continuity start".

It is just semantics, but I would consider starting at some point in existing Valiant continuity (ie, re-starting the universe after Unity) a partial reboot.

There are those who feel very strongly that it should start after Unity, mostly because A) that was when Shooter left and these readers propose the universe lost its focus, and B) because they don't think that the stories and characters that followed (i.e. Armorines, Visitor, X-O bike, etc) fit within the VALIANT idea.

There are many problems with picking up after Unity.

For one thing, the event took place in 1992, so the only way to pick up from there would be to have the new material take place in the early 90's.

Or, rewrite Unity 1. Instead of Solar sending everyone back to the correct time, something happens and everyone accidentilly gets sent to 2008. Perhaps Solar was about to send them back to the correct times, but somehow Pierce had a final "failsafe" that disrupted Solar's ability to control where he sent people.

They missed 16 years of their lives, and the world went on without them (except for the future people, who could be sent back to their "nromal" time, or whatever).

Another option would be for the characters to come out of Unity in 2009 due to something Solar did... but such a move would be extremely anti-dramatic and lame.

Hey...I just said that!

I don't think it would be that lame. In fact, think about it. Harada has now how 16 years to build his empire without the interference of Solar, XO, or the Harbinger kids. Presumably only HARDCorp was fighting him. Darque hasn't had to deal with Shadowman - perhaps Nettie and the group made a NEW Shadowman, and Jack is now second fiddle. Timewalker has been searching the timeline franctically for his brothers, since they have been missing for 16 years and no one knows where. The spider aliens may be stronger, XO and Solar haven't been fighting them (although potentially Harada has been holding them off - who knows, maybe HARDCorp has deemed the spider aliens a larger threat than Harada, and has teamed with him to fight them.) Bloodshot has been around, but he has, for all intents and purposes, been the only "hero".

I think there are a lot of potential storylines.

Then there's Harbinger and Pete's conflict with Harada. The notion that Harada would not have conquered the world in the decade since Pete and the others vanished is ridicolous.

There could be other people fighting a resistance. HARD Corp could be leading the battle against Harada. Or...maybe Harada HAS taken over a large portion of the world.

A third option would be to pick up after Unity with the heroes arriving in 92 and then jump 17 years into the future and pretending that some published stories happened and others didn't... but that would really suck.

I agree that picking and choosing storylines and plot developments on a case by case basis doens't make much sense. But it doesn't mean they can't do it. Maybe they have thought of a way to do it that works.

Chris

[1st Among Equals]

I thought VEI couldn't print Solar,Turok, and Magnus, but in the X-O HC Solar is in it?

[Dr. Solar]

I thought VEI couldn't print Solar,Turok, and Magnus, but in the X-O HC Solar is in it?

AND he's in the Harbinger hardcover.

Clearly, a little bit here and there isn't going to hurt

Is it shoplifting if you just try out one of the grapes in the store?

[cjv]

Why not?

If a robot works so well (and she clearly thought she worked pretty well) the presumably a smaller, more mobile "guardian robot" might work just as well.

C'mon - you can't just say "so she wouldn't create another one". What's the reasoning? Why not?

Chris

Okay, let's put this in perspective.

We're talking about the VALIANT Universe here, which was "world outside our window, real science, real time", etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

That's the Shooter-molded world in which Grandmother was devised, created, employed, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

Agreed?

Okay, there is a bit of irony is refering to Valiant as "the world outside your window" and then in the next sentence talking about how a giant, sentient dragon robot that controls Japan is created.

Okay, so taking that into consideration, let's analyze the "Grandmother creates a guardian robot"

Grandmother gained frewill in 3050, she was the first of her kind. Simply gaining freewill would not instantly give Grandmother the knowledge to create other freewill bots, so suggesting that she could do it herself is out of the question.

a) I never said the robot that Grandmother created HAD to be a freewill. Perhaps it was simply a highly autonomous robot that was ultimately controlled or programmed by grandmother? Perhaps Grandmother didn't create another freewill, but simply found one (after all, frewills are "created" on their own - you don't have to set out to create a free will. Other than 1A, we don't know much about how many other freewills there were.

According to the timeline, Grandmother was "born" in 3050. The first Rai died in 3216, by anti-Grannies. That is 166 years.

Could someone else have created a freewill robot for Grandmother to alter? Not likely as robots of 1-A's sort did not come into existence until many years after Grandmother gained her freedom.

No one "created" Grandmother - it was an electrical surge that created her. Surely some other, similar accident might create another freewill.

Or, maybe it wasn't a free will, but just a robot that Grandmother controlled (or programmed, if not under direct control). And perhaps someone else took it over, wreaked havoc in Japan, and thus the anti-Granny movement started (since it was "Grandmothers Robot" that was doing the damage).

In that time, Grandmother focused her efforts into expanding herself across Japan, until 3216 when she created the first Rai.

Actually, the first Rai DIED in 3216, according to the timeline. And Anti-grannies already existed at that point, they were the ones that killed the first Rai.

The question here is this;

Did freewill robots exist between 3050 (when Grannie gained freewill) and 3216 (when she created the first Rai)?

I think that the answer is no because, since the VALIANT universe abided by the rules mentioned above, the technology didn't exist yet. (unless there's a comic that contradicts that).

The technology for freewills similar to 1A didn't exist - but freewills DID exist - Granny existed. So it is POSSIBLE for a computer/robot to become freewill - just not the same time of robot that we saw as 1A.

I have no idea what kind of robots they have from 3050 to 3216 (or until 1A was created...when was that?). But even if they were different kinds of robots, they still might have gone freewill.

And, it is also possible that the state of robotics in Japan was entirely different from the state of robotics in North Am. Perhaps Japn was developing positronic robots (and thus freewills) long before Norht Am was doing the same?

Chris