Jim Shooter's Post Unity VALIANT Universe

[BloodOfHeroes]

I'm not contradicting that, that's accepted fact.

What I'm saying is that, given the solicits in the PDF, plans changed and that it's possible that when the solicits were submitted to Previews the plan was to indeed turn Andar into Geomancer, and that it wasn't until after they went out that the plan changed.

Shooter could have been the one that changed the plan, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was changed because he left.

I never said why it was changed. What I said was that Andar the Geomancer (a book solicited, but apparently not plotted, drawn or scripted) didn't contradict Rai #0, which--I added later--had already been plotted by Shooter and drawn by Lapham, showing an adult Geoff as a Geomancer sometime in our future.

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

That's the error. You think it wasn't plotted. If it hadn't been plotted, the solicit wouldn't have gone out.

Those things aren't written in a vaccum.

At the time the solicit was written (which is long before the comic would be pencilled), the original plot was to replace Geoff with Andar.

In the time AFTER the solicit went out, the plot changed.

[BloodOfHeroes]

VanHook told me that the reason he was so quickly promoted to SOLAR writer was because he had been working with Shooter on the title and had the best understanding of where it was going to go. Shooter had always planned to make him a writer; this was a "battlefield promotion" is all.

My point is that Rai #0 was plotted by Shooter with a middle-aged Geoff. Shooter planned on Andar as a Geomancer. You seem to think that both events couldn't have happened in the same continuity. I disagree.



And, as past performance is the best indicator of future behavior, I will leave you to your differening opinion, rather than get mired in the ol' back and forth.

Happy Holidays, everyone!
BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

You're working off the assumption that Rai #0 was always plotted to have Geoff, that it's impossible for the comic to have at one time been plotted with Andar in mind.

[xodacia81]

VanHook told me that the reason he was so quickly promoted to SOLAR writer was because he had been working with Shooter on the title and had the best understanding of where it was going to go. Shooter had always planned to make him a writer; this was a "battlefield promotion" is all.

My point is that Rai #0 was plotted by Shooter with a middle-aged Geoff. Shooter planned on Andar as a Geomancer. You seem to think that both events couldn't have happened in the same continuity. I disagree.



And, as past performance is the best indicator of future behavior, I will leave you to your differening opinion, rather than get mired in the ol' back and forth.

Happy Holidays, everyone!
BoH

The thing is, I think, that it seemed at times to be indicated that there was only ever one Geomancer in the world. However, given how enormous the planet is, I doubt such a thing would have been feasible. Perhaps there were supposed to be other Geomancers and that was an aspect of the overall plot which never made it. I think that what is lost is that there was what Shooter wanted, there was what they did anyways and there was what was left of what he wanted, three things which often mixed in very unusual ways. In any case, as always, speculation as to original intent is fun but I enjoyed what we DID get. AND, I would take the word of an insider over speculation from outsiders based on advertizements.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, you are correct, that is the way the concept works. There can only be a teacher and a student, no more. There can be people who flunked the course, like N'Dour, but there cannot be two Geomancers at the same time.

At best, Andar would have needed a teacher (maybe Geoff thought him how to become a Geomancer during the 157/158 days he spent in the Lost Land).

Now, given that there can only be a main Geomancer at once, and that the solicit says that Andar was planned to become the Geomancer, the only possible explanation is that the plan changed AFTER the solicit went out, and that originally they intended to kill Geoff during Unity (as shown in Eternal Warrior #2).

Clearly, for whatever reason, that plan changed and they decided to have him live after all.

[xodacia81]

It WAS stated, you say? Was this stated for CERTAIN pre or post SHOOTER? I don't recall exact information in Solar 10 or 11 on this subject, mostly just later on...which indicates to me that the CONCEPT we know may have changed from it's ORIGINAL direction.

[ManofTheAtom]

It WAS stated, you say? Was this stated for CERTAIN pre or post SHOOTER? I don't recall exact information in Solar 10 or 11 on this subject, mostly just later on...which indicates to me that the CONCEPT we know may have changed from it's ORIGINAL direction.

Not necessarily (and there was no VALIANT pre-Shooter . The term is Shooter or Post Shooter)

There is no VALIANT comics written during Shooter's tenure or after it that supports the notion that there can be two Geomancers at once.

In fact, the idea is counterproductive to the core of the concept. The Geomancers are the spokepersons for the planet Earth.

WHY would the Earth need TWO people to speak for it, when ONE is more than enough?

What possible benefit could there be to having two Geomancers at once, when all they're going to do is repeat each other?

That's why there can be only ONE Geomancer and ONE chosen successor (with an endless list of wash outs who failed to become a Geomancer).

[xodacia81]

It WAS stated, you say? Was this stated for CERTAIN pre or post SHOOTER? I don't recall exact information in Solar 10 or 11 on this subject, mostly just later on...which indicates to me that the CONCEPT we know may have changed from it's ORIGINAL direction.

Not necessarily (and there was no VALIANT pre-Shooter . The term is Shooter or Post Shooter)

There is no VALIANT comics written during Shooter's tenure or after it that supports the notion that there can be two Geomancers at once.

In fact, the idea is counterproductive to the core of the concept. The Geomancers are the spokepersons for the planet Earth.

WHY would the Earth need TWO people to speak for it, when ONE is more than enough?

What possible benefit could there be to having two Geomancers at once, when all they're going to do is repeat each other?

That's why there can be only ONE Geomancer and ONE chosen successor (with an endless list of wash outs who failed to become a Geomancer).

Mea Culpa, I DID mean PRE Unity or POST Shooter. Also, I don't think it was so much a matter of THE spokseperson as much as A, which could be more than one. As far as the two repeating, who knows. Maybe the stuff with Geoff getting stuck in the Lost Land during Chaos Effect was meant to set up something that had originally been intended. Who knows? The point is, of course, that two Geomancers could pose an interesting problem. It simply said the NEW Geomancer. Recall that BUCK wasn't dead but was no longer ACTING as Geomancer. Maybe Geoff wasn't going to die but simply realized-or the earth did-that he wasn't up to the challenge?

[ManofTheAtom]

It WAS stated, you say? Was this stated for CERTAIN pre or post SHOOTER? I don't recall exact information in Solar 10 or 11 on this subject, mostly just later on...which indicates to me that the CONCEPT we know may have changed from it's ORIGINAL direction.

Not necessarily (and there was no VALIANT pre-Shooter . The term is Shooter or Post Shooter)

There is no VALIANT comics written during Shooter's tenure or after it that supports the notion that there can be two Geomancers at once.

In fact, the idea is counterproductive to the core of the concept. The Geomancers are the spokepersons for the planet Earth.

WHY would the Earth need TWO people to speak for it, when ONE is more than enough?

What possible benefit could there be to having two Geomancers at once, when all they're going to do is repeat each other?

That's why there can be only ONE Geomancer and ONE chosen successor (with an endless list of wash outs who failed to become a Geomancer).

Mea Culpa, I DID mean PRE Unity or POST Shooter. Also, I don't think it was so much a matter of THE spokseperson as much as A, which could be more than one. As far as the two repeating, who knows. Maybe the stuff with Geoff getting stuck in the Lost Land during Chaos Effect was meant to set up something that had originally been intended. Who knows? The point is, of course, that two Geomancers could pose an interesting problem. It simply said the NEW Geomancer. Recall that BUCK wasn't dead but was no longer ACTING as Geomancer. Maybe Geoff wasn't going to die but simply realized-or the earth did-that he wasn't up to the challenge?

Given that there was a "death-scene" written into the story, I don't agree with that.

Geoff's escape was handled rather poorly, it seemed like it was an afterthought and that's why they had to make it the focus of the Rai Companion, to explain how he survived AFTER the fact.

[xodacia81]

In the light of everything that happened, does any of this really matter? I am saying here that when a new writer comes into a situation like this, it is up to them to respect the past but also to take the story where they see fit. If Shooter had already written and seen published the death of Geoff, then that would be one thing. The truth, as far as we know, is only that there were at the very least outlines regarding Andar being the Geomancer. Of course, you must also think back to the Harbinger and XO ads that had characters missing when compared to the final product, proving that what is seen in advance previews does not mean that it was/is cannon which was/is ignored but rather that there was, for whatever reason, a change of story. We got several great years of VALIANT and I for one am glad of it.

[ManofTheAtom]

It WAS stated, you say? Was this stated for CERTAIN pre or post SHOOTER? I don't recall exact information in Solar 10 or 11 on this subject, mostly just later on...which indicates to me that the CONCEPT we know may have changed from it's ORIGINAL direction.

In Solar #28 Phil meets an aborigen who Buck had chosen to be his successor that failed the course. When Phil asked him if he was a Geomancer, the man (Simon) said that no, that there could be only one Geomancer and that was Geoff.

[Ryan]

Maybe someone could get an interview with Shooter that would address some of this stuff. Andar as geomancer sounds cool as squee to me.

[BloodOfHeroes]

Maybe someone could get an interview with Shooter that would address some of this stuff. Andar as geomancer sounds cool as squee to me.

He showed he could pull off the wardrobe. Kinda like how they elect the Pope based solely on whether or not the tall hat'll fit his head... A Cinderella tale of holiness, as it were.

BoH

[BloodOfHeroes]

Well, there's no reason to believe that Geoff would have been the Geomancer in Rai #0 if Andar had become the Geomancer.

Also from http://www.gregholland.com/valiant/joe/shoot2/

See- I plotted Rai #0. And everything that I plotted is part of this Universe that includes this "my group of people" I'm taking about. But when (Bob Layton) actually wrote the dialogue... see- at the time, as I was writing and plotting VALIANT books, since I was sitting there with the artist every day, I could actually lay out the panel and tell them what to draw [emphasis added] knowing what I was going to write and work with (David Lapham) that way, so I happened to have left before I had the chance to write the dialogue; someone else took my pictures [emphasis added] and wrote the dialogue and did a lot of things I neccesarily would not have done, so the same picture could have vastly different meanings.

Well, what would you have done? You wouldn't have laid everything out? You wouldn't have been so specific?

Oh no- like I said, I plotted every panel of that, and the pictures in there were intended for my story, [emphasis added] it's the words with the pictures that changed the intent of the pictures that deviated my course; my plan. So basically, there's a subtle difference between the history presented in Rai #0- printed, and the history I intended to be in print, so I'm going with the one I intended (laughs).

Reason (and validation) enough for me to believe it.

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

Reason (and validation) enough for me to believe it.

BoH

It still keeps going over your head.

The plotting Shooter is talking about would have been done AFTER the solicit that says that Andar was going to be a Geomancer was sent to Previews.

CLEARLY, when that solicit was written AT VALIANT, the plan was to make Andar the Geomancer, then AFTER the solicit went out, the plan changed and Rai #0 was plotted WITH Geoff in it.

[BloodOfHeroes]

It still keeps going over your head.

I think quite the opposite, actually.

The plotting Shooter is talking about would have been done AFTER the solicit that says that Andar was going to be a Geomancer was sent to Previews.

CLEARLY, when that solicit was written AT VALIANT, the plan was to make Andar the Geomancer, then AFTER the solicit went out, the plan changed and Rai #0 was plotted WITH Geoff in it.

MOTA--the fact that Shooter was there for the artwork to be completed on Rai #0 and apparently NOT for the Solar issue seems, to me, strong evidence that you have your order of events mixed up. Again--Andar as a Geomancer could have been a short-term event, with Geoff returning to the role before the depicted events in Rai #0.

What I started out saying was that Andar as a Geomancer doesn't contradict anything in Rai #0. PERIOD.

Re-read that and then look at where you took this thread. Shame on you!

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

MOTA--the fact that Shooter was there for the artwork to be completed on Rai #0 and apparently NOT for the Solar issue seems, to me, strong evidence that you have your order of events mixed up. Again--Andar as a Geomancer could have been a short-term event, with Geoff returning to the role before the depicted events in Rai #0.

Once again,

Given that there was a DEATH scene and that Geoff's "miraculous" return was so badly written and not explained until many months after the fact, the idea that Geoff was originally meant to survive is not a given.

What I started out saying was that Andar as a Geomancer doesn't contradict anything in Rai #0. PERIOD.

And what I'm telling you is that Rai #0 wasn't necessarily plotted before the solicit went out, and that a solicit isn't written in a vaccum. Someone at VALIANT wrote it, and someone else approved it, before it went out to Diamond to be included in Previews. At the time that process was done, the plan was to turn Andar into the Geomancer, but when the issue went out the plan changed.

You seem to think that the story was plotted BEFORE the solicit went out, and that despite knowing that Geoff was going to survive they sent out a solicit that contradicted that on purpose.

[BloodOfHeroes]

You seem to think that the story was plotted BEFORE the solicit went out, and that despite knowing that Geoff was going to survive they sent out a solicit that contradicted that on purpose.

Nope. Just saying your very narrow reading might be too narrow. We'll never know. You seem to think that Andar the Geomancer would force a change in Rai #0. I think that both stories could have happened as originally intended by JS. Peace, man. We'll just agree to disagree (again).

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

We'll never know.
BoH

Well, no, not necessarily.

I for one already emailed Layton to ask him about the solicits, so maybe he'll address that in the next update to his site after New Year.

You could email Shooter if you'd like to to ask him the same (if you don't have his email, I can give it to you).

The Internet... not just for porn

[BloodOfHeroes]

Thanks, but nah. However, I did find this line on Wikipedia (so it MUST be true). Anyone got readable/scannable copies nearby?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancers_(comics)

Magnus, Robot Fighter #14 shows three possibly unidentified geomancers: One dark-skinned, one dressed in 17th century Puritan garb, and one American Indian. At least the Puritan is not in the list above [omitted for space constraints] and would likely be from the 17th century. It has been mentioned that the American Indian could have been intended to be Andar.

But this one was listed in the aforementioned list. Not sure if it's the same Geomancer or not:

1720 AD (start and end dates unknown): Native American [Eternal Warrior #46]

BoH

[magnusr]

Magnus, Robot Fighter #14 shows three possibly unidentified geomancers: ... one American Indian. ... the American Indian could have been intended to be Andar.... 1720 AD (start and end dates unknown): Native American [Eternal Warrior #46]

This is based on an old version of a list I made long time ago. I have a better one. For instance, it no longer incorrectly refers to Magnus 14. It should be #15. I have no scans, but it does look a bit like Andar. The one in Eternal Warrior is older.

/Magnus

[BloodOfHeroes]

This is based on an old version of a list I made long time ago. I have a better one. For instance, it no longer incorrectly refers to Magnus 14. It should be #15. I have no scans, but it does look a bit like Andar. The one in Eternal Warrior is older.

/Magnus

I shoulda known! Thanks, Magnus!



Here's a scan. By golly, it sure does look like Andar!

BoH

[ManofTheAtom]

To what tribe does that Geomancer belong to?

Can you tell by the feather in his bandana (his only distinguishing mark)?

1720 AD (start and end dates unknown): Native American [Eternal Warrior #46]

Before or from 1836 AD: A Cherokee (it is possible that his mother who dies here was a geomancer too) [Geomancer #6]

There was another Native American Geomancer in an early EW issue that was supposed to be Tonto to Gilad's Lone Ranger.

[BloodOfHeroes]

To what tribe does that Geomancer belong to?

I haven't idea one. IIRC, Turok was assigned to a few different tribes, no? Rags Morales did a lot of research and then authenticated Turok's appearance for the tribe assigned [Kiowa?], but then I'm positive the VH-2 Tal'Set was described as belonging to a completely different tribe [Cherokee, perhaps?].

This is all hazy and would need to be authenticated, as I migt have mis-remembered, here. After all, it's been way too long since I've read these...

BoH