Queer eye for a straight guy- Sting?!!!!!

[Jaknife]

wEtEon-
I do respect you and hope that you can respect me as well, after all: after re-reading the Harbinger aspects of Unity I decided that Sting was meant to have a thing for Torque. Regarding the death bit, though- there isn't any indication of who said that line (at least on the copies I've seen). My interpretation was that it was coming from outside of Torque's head, probably Kris or 'Mingo.

-Dave

you mispelled it again. you forgot the 'H' this time, and you missed a 't'. that is too funny.

but agreed, he and joe are just chilling on his bed and hangin out.

if anyone shoulda been gay, it shoulda been geoff, archer, or maybe harada. archer is say, because he was raised by a bunch of dudes in a temple, and he hates his mother so frickin much he wouldnt want to go near girls. geoff i never really liked, so they coulda revealed he was really a girl with nuts and i wouldnt care.

[DJSpecter]

you mispelled it again. you forgot the 'H' this time, and you missed a 't'. that is too funny.

Nothing gets passed you, Jacnyph.

Although, that Harada thing sounds somewhat likely. "Your true love-Kris?.. People like you and I can't feel love." (I can't recall seeing Harada ever interested in anyone, male or female; but he was the one to jump into a woman's body, and he lived out that body's life before jumping, he obviously felt comfortable enough in it.)

-Dave

[DawgPhan]

man, why Sting? why couldn't it be Aric, i mean, we all know Ken wanted his *SQUEE*.

but Sting had to at least be bisexual. i mean, he does have kids. his decendent John is the one that kills Harada.

Because Aric was a badass. I mean he was a barbarian with alien technology. How can that be gay? Not that there is anything wrong with it. I think that Ken might have been a little light in the loafers, but not Aric...

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

you mispelled it again. you forgot the 'H' this time, and you missed a 't'. that is too funny.

Nothing gets passed you, Jacnyph.

-Dave

Now THAT'S humor.

Ladies and gentlemen....the Master of the Obvious awards will be handed out later this year at Athens.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

man, why Sting? why couldn't it be Aric, i mean, we all know Ken wanted his *SQUEE*.

but Sting had to at least be bisexual. i mean, he does have kids. his decendent John is the one that kills Harada.

Because Aric was a badass. I mean he was a barbarian with alien technology. How can that be gay? Not that there is anything wrong with it. I think that Ken might have been a little light in the loafers, but not Aric...

<laughs out loud>...some of the manliest men I've ever met in my life were 'mos. You can be a 'badass'...and still like men.

In some circles....it's a requirement.....

Chew on that one for a while....

[dino]

Chew on that one for a while....

Is that what "badass "mo's" say?????

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I was re-reading issue #0 and decided that it was simply two friends hanging out. They’re no signs at all of Peter and his friend being gay. As for issue #6, well, he undoubtedly said he loved Torque but when a friend of yours is dying and you’re trying to wish him well... it didn't come of as gay but more like a reassuring plead to basically say "stay cool man". In fact if it wasn't for Shooter saying he was gay then I wouldn't have followed.

Hey weddyahn...I had to admit, I didn't see it the first time I read Harb #0 many years ago.... but reread it today, and....well...look, two guys don't lie UNDER the covers pf a bed after puberty unless they're foolin' around. And yes, they're UNDER the covers...check out the bed. And, Pete's lying across Joe.

Just doesn't happen.

Conclusion: Sting's a 'mo.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

Chew on that one for a while....

Is that what "badass "mo's" say?????

I didn't say *I* was a badass 'mo.

[DJSpecter]

check out the bed. And, Pete's lying across Joe.

And the cards were for playing strip poker, of course, it all makes sense. And they would be positioned somehow else to illustrate "Joe knocked his soda off the night stand" (Joe had to be closed to the opening of the bed) "I caught the glass before it hit the floor" (Pete had to reach over Joe; notice pete is for the most part visible, and from the angle he is reaching at the glass he's have to either be sitting on the bed or lying over the covers perpendicular to Joe; Joe was certainly under the covers the normal way one would be if reading in bed or such.)

I'm not saying he's not just that this is ambiguous at best.

-Dave

[myron]

check out the bed. And, Pete's lying across Joe.

And the cards were for playing strip poker, of course, it all makes sense. And they would be positioned somehow else to illustrate "Joe knocked his soda off the night stand" (Joe had to be closed to the opening of the bed) "I caught the glass before it hit the floor" (Pete had to reach over Joe; notice pete is for the most part visible, and from the angle he is reaching at the glass he's have to either be sitting on the bed or lying over the covers perpendicular to Joe; Joe was certainly under the covers the normal way one would be if reading in bed or such.)

I'm not saying he's not just that this is ambiguous at best.

-Dave

the ambiguously gay duo!!

[shaxper]

I always kind of thought there was an uncomfortable tension between Pete and Joe, like they were lovers and Pete was the only one who didn't know it. The way Joe got jealous about Kris was especially enlightening. I sincerely doubt the two were gay at the time of Harby 0, but I think they were heading that way and only Joe was starting to realize it. I'm willing to bet they were just wrestling on the bed, but it probably felt REAL good...

Incidentally, I don't buy for a second that Pete had a thing for Torque. He said "I love you" cuz the team was his only real family and Torque was dying. Plus all the crap Sting had given Torque. I'd have said it too. After all, Sting and Torque were more like rivals. Sting was always threatened by the guy. There was no suggestion he was petting his little Harbinger over him.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I sincerely doubt the two were gay at the time of Harby 0, but I think they were heading that way and only Joe was starting to realize it.

Just to clarify, if someone is gay, they're gay, from day 1. It just takes adolescence to bring that out, since sexuality is dormant during childhood.

Ya know, just to clarify.

[shaxper]

I sincerely doubt the two were gay at the time of Harby 0, but I think they were heading that way and only Joe was starting to realize it.

Just to clarify, if someone is gay, they're gay, from day 1. It just takes adolescence to bring that out, since sexuality is dormant during childhood.

Ya know, just to clarify.

That's not proven. I subscribe to the spectrum theory, myself. Everyone's on a spectrum of sexuality, with very few people being absolutely straight or gay. Culture helps push us one way or the other, but a lot of people "become gay" because they're somewhere between straight and gay, but won't settle with being labelled bi. Joe and Pete were probably on that scale (Pete definately isn't just gay), but hadn't determined their places on the spectrum yet.

Hey, you brought science into this. Not me

[Vault-Keeper]

Just to clarify, if someone is gay, they're gay, from day 1. It just takes adolescence to bring that out, since sexuality is dormant during childhood.

Ya know, just to clarify.

Dormant or active sexuality depends more heavily on the enviroment the child is raised in & not so much the age. And you can be open to varying degrees of bisexuality without being a full-blown gay (pu intended).

[myron]

not to turn this into a talk on homosexuality (which it seems to have become...about a fictional, comic book character no less...) My wife tends to be a "gay magnet". In the 16 years that we have been with each other (13 married this august) we have made the aquaintance of many gay (male) couples and become friends with many of those. We have had many discussions with these men, and all of them are quite adament (sp) that it was not a "choice" that they made. They all stated that for as long as they could remember, their (sexual) dreams were about men...never women. They also all tried dating women with varied degrees of success and always wound up back with men...until they eventually stayed with men. They were gay from the get go and none of them stated anything different, but it took many of them a LONG time to get to grips with it.

[shaxper]

I was in no way claiming that people choose whether or not to be gay. They simply become aware of their orientation at different points in time (not necessarily at the onset of puberty and certainly not at birth). I never said choice had anything to do with the matter. Though I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality, why would anyone ever choose to be ostracized and misunderstood by family, friends, the government, and the general public as a whole?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I sincerely doubt the two were gay at the time of Harby 0, but I think they were heading that way and only Joe was starting to realize it.

Just to clarify, if someone is gay, they're gay, from day 1. It just takes adolescence to bring that out, since sexuality is dormant during childhood.

Ya know, just to clarify.

That's not proven. I subscribe to the spectrum theory, myself. Everyone's on a spectrum of sexuality, with very few people being absolutely straight or gay. Culture helps push us one way or the other, but a lot of people "become gay" because they're somewhere between straight and gay, but won't settle with being labelled bi. Joe and Pete were probably on that scale (Pete definately isn't just gay), but hadn't determined their places on the spectrum yet.

Hey, you brought science into this. Not me

Spectrum theory and genetically gay are not mutually exclusive. The simple fact is, those who are gay do not 'become' gay. You either are gay, bi-sexual, or straight. You cannot change your orientation anymore than you can change the color of your eyes, regardless of how you are 'pushed'. If you need proof of this, look no further than the spectacular failure of the 'ex-gay' movements.

As far as it not being proven....I think I'll take the testimony of millions and millions of gay people as proof enough.

Sorry, folks, but environment has little to nothing to do with sexual orientation....twins who were seperated at birth and lived in VASTLY different environments, both of whom were gay, have proven this.

And..for the record...sexual activity is not the same as sexual orientation. One can CHOOSE to have sex with whomever (and whatever) they want....that doesn't make them gay, straight, or bi-sexual. It's who they WANT to that does.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I was in no way claiming that people choose whether or not to be gay. They simply become aware of their orientation at different points in time (not necessarily at the onset of puberty and certainly not at birth). I never said choice had anything to do with the matter. Though I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality, why would anyone ever choose to be ostracized and misunderstood by family, friends, the government, and the general public as a whole?

99.99999364% of people become aware of their sexuality at puberty...it is, naturally, the way it usually works. No one becomes aware of their sexuality (or much of anything else) at birth.

Whether a gay person comes to GRIPS with it or not at that time is a whole 'nother Oprah.

[shaxper]

99.99999364% of people become aware of their sexuality at puberty...it is, naturally, the way it usually works.

Where's your support for that? I happen to have read a lot of literature on this (I took several courses on gender identity and sexuality) and in most of the cases I'm aware of, though a person's sexual orientation is more or less determined by puberty, they are not necessarily aware of it, largely because of the cultural impact of a society (and often family) that preaches that heterosexual is the default norm. Many people go through the awkward first relationships and some even get married before they realize why they're uncomfortable with it.

No one becomes aware of their sexuality (or much of anything else) at birth.

I definately wasn't saying they do. However, some researchers and groups do believe that these sexual identities are hereditary, and an even smaller number theorize that a child can know early on that they are gay. I actually had a friend who claimed he knew he was gay from when he was a child.. Though I don't personally believe it, I can't scientifically write it off either.

Whether a gay person comes to GRIPS with it or not at that time is a whole 'nother Oprah.

And that's essentially what I've been saying, thanks.

[shaxper]

I sincerely doubt the two were gay at the time of Harby 0, but I think they were heading that way and only Joe was starting to realize it.

Just to clarify, if someone is gay, they're gay, from day 1. It just takes adolescence to bring that out, since sexuality is dormant during childhood.

Ya know, just to clarify.

That's not proven. I subscribe to the spectrum theory, myself. Everyone's on a spectrum of sexuality, with very few people being absolutely straight or gay. Culture helps push us one way or the other, but a lot of people "become gay" because they're somewhere between straight and gay, but won't settle with being labelled bi. Joe and Pete were probably on that scale (Pete definately isn't just gay), but hadn't determined their places on the spectrum yet.

Hey, you brought science into this. Not me

Spectrum theory and genetically gay are not mutually exclusive. The simple fact is, those who are gay do not 'become' gay. You either are gay, bi-sexual, or straight. You cannot change your orientation anymore than you can change the color of your eyes, regardless of how you are 'pushed'. If you need proof of this, look no further than the spectacular failure of the 'ex-gay' movements.

You, my friend, are putting words in my mouth. I did not say anything about "becoming" gay. I was talking about becoming aware of the sexual orientation that was already there or, as you put it, "coming to grips with it".

More specifically, I was saying that when you're somewhere in the middle of gay and straight, it's even harder for this to become clear. In our example, Pete and Joe were probably both somewhere in the middle, but Pete was only aware of his attraction to women (since it's the socially accepted default). Joe seems to have been begining to realize his place on the spectrum.

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

99.99999364% of people become aware of their sexuality at puberty...it is, naturally, the way it usually works.

Where's your support for that? I happen to have read a lot of literature on this (I took several courses on gender identity and sexuality) and in most of the cases I'm aware of, though a person's sexual orientation is more or less determined by puberty, they are not necessarily aware of it, largely because of the cultural impact of a society (and often family) that preaches that heterosexual is the default norm.

And right there is the proof you're seeking. Because the VAST MAJORITY of people in the world are heterosexual, they simply recognize that they are attracted to members of the opposite sex, without even being aware of what the term 'sexual orientation' means. There's no need; it's self evident. They may not know what it's CALLED...but they know that, all of a sudden, they have sexual desire that didn't exist before.

That's just nature at work. They have become AWARE of their sexuality, regardless of how it expresses itself.

As far as being gay, a gay person may not KNOW what they are is called...and they say 'I didn't know I was gay until 25' or whatnot...but when you probe deeper, you discover that, just like virtually everyone else, they 'had a thing' for members of the same sex right about the time of the onset of puberty.

And that...is the manifestation of their sexuality.

Many people go through the awkward first relationships and some even get married before they realize why they're uncomfortable with it.

Right...but when pressed, you'll find that they 'always knew they were different.'

No one becomes aware of their sexuality (or much of anything else) at birth.

I definately wasn't saying they do. However, some researchers and groups do believe that these sexual identities are hereditary, and an even smaller number theorize that a child can know early on that they are gay. I actually had a friend who claimed he knew he was gay from when he was a child.. Though I don't personally believe it, I can't scientifically write it off either.

Right, I was just agreeing with you. There IS, however, that 'relationship factor' which can manifest itself quite early in life, distinct and seperate from sexuality. It's THAT part that compels pre-pubescent boys and girls to have 'boyfriends and girlfriends' before they have any idea about sexuality. They just gravitate towards that because there's something in the human makeup that compels them to.

Whether a gay person comes to GRIPS with it or not at that time is a whole 'nother Oprah.

And that's essentially what I've been saying, thanks.[/quote]

Yes, that's the point. You're 100% right, our entire WORLD is 'hetero-centric', and there's nothing wrong with that. It is, after all, necessary for the survival of the species. But, there's also a need to recognize the '10%' minority as a valid (genetic or not) variation that is, most importantly, NOT CHOSEN.

[shaxper]

And so, when the smoke clears, we agree.

It sure took a lot of posting to arrive at that

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

I sincerely doubt the two were gay at the time of Harby 0, but I think they were heading that way and only Joe was starting to realize it.

Just to clarify, if someone is gay, they're gay, from day 1. It just takes adolescence to bring that out, since sexuality is dormant during childhood.

Ya know, just to clarify.

That's not proven. I subscribe to the spectrum theory, myself. Everyone's on a spectrum of sexuality, with very few people being absolutely straight or gay. Culture helps push us one way or the other, but a lot of people "become gay" because they're somewhere between straight and gay, but won't settle with being labelled bi. Joe and Pete were probably on that scale (Pete definately isn't just gay), but hadn't determined their places on the spectrum yet.

Hey, you brought science into this. Not me

Spectrum theory and genetically gay are not mutually exclusive. The simple fact is, those who are gay do not 'become' gay. You either are gay, bi-sexual, or straight. You cannot change your orientation anymore than you can change the color of your eyes, regardless of how you are 'pushed'. If you need proof of this, look no further than the spectacular failure of the 'ex-gay' movements.

You, my friend, are putting words in my mouth. I did not say anything about "becoming" gay. I was talking about becoming aware of the sexual orientation that was already there or, as you put it, "coming to grips with it".

More specifically, I was saying that when you're somewhere in the middle of gay and straight, it's even harder for this to become clear. In our example, Pete and Joe were probably both somewhere in the middle, but Pete was only aware of his attraction to women (since it's the socially accepted default). Joe seems to have been begining to realize his place on the spectrum.

No no, you DID say 'become gay', in quotes up there, which is why I responded with the same. It's right up there, from your post. But, we ARE agreeing, honest.

However....I find the 'spectrum' concept to be....well....iffy at best. Perhaps it's cultural, but I just don't see too many men who are 'in the middle'...and a spectrum would suggest that the vast majority of humanity is 'in the middle'. Where's the demonstration of that?

Of the 300 or so members of Valiantcomics.com, how many of them are gay? 10%? That would fit the societal quota, but perhaps the comics culture is skewed towards a far lesser percentage.

Of the rest...how many of them have even BEEN sexually attracted to a member of the same sex, much less acted on it? And I don't mean that adolescent 'fooling around' business, because if you're in the middle of the spectrum, it's going to be a lifelong thing...

So, how many of you have 'done it' with a member of the same sex? Or even just entertained the idea in a fantasy situation? Hmmm?

Because that's what the spectrum suggests....that the majority of them fall 'somewhere in between', but....in reality, how often does that manifest itself into sexual expression?

Is it just our culture the restricts the fluid sexuality of an otherwise vast majority of people 'in the middle of the spectrum'?

Or, is the spectrum model itself entirely suspect?

Or, is the vast majority of humanity really just at 'one end' of the spectrum (say, what, 85%?)? Well, then, it's not really a spectrum, if the vast majority is crammed at one end, by definition.

Ya know?

[ZephyrWasHOT!!]

And so, when the smoke clears, we agree.

It sure took a lot of posting to arrive at that

It's a layered and intense subject; it takes a while to sort out.

[shaxper]

No no, you DID say 'become gay', in quotes up there, which is why I responded with the same. It's right up there, from your post. But, we ARE agreeing, honest.

Ah, so I did. In the context, I meant label-wise, not sexual-orientation wise. It makes sense to me when I read it, but I can see you're extracting that meaning from it. Essentially, in my opinion, if someone is neither fully heterosexual nor fully homosexual, they assume one of the two labels or call themselves "bi". To the outside world, they "become one of these three things", though nothing has physically or chemically changed.

However....I find the 'spectrum' concept to be....well....iffy at best. Perhaps it's cultural, but I just don't see too many men who are 'in the middle'...and a spectrum would suggest that the vast majority of humanity is 'in the middle'. Where's the demonstration of that?

Well there's no way to prove it, especially since we have no physical cause or evidence of homosexuality. All we can draw upon is the word of those who have "come out". But, in my opinion, I think cultural expectation drives the other 90% of us straight. Probably 10% of that 90 truly are completely straight, whereas the rest have varying degrees of inklings toward the same gender. Not to say even most of us are 50/50, but that, without years of cultural programming, many of us would lean the other way now or then. Look at ancient Greece.

The thought of "being" with another guy sickens me, but that's not even an inborn behavioral response. That response is probably cultural. Theoretically, if we could remove all cultural contexts (which is impossible), even if I were 100% straight (and may be), my response to the thought of being with another guy would more likely be disinterested. It just wouldn't appeal to me. The vile sickness I feel in my stomach is 25 years of cultural programming.

Of the 300 or so members of Valiantcomics.com, how many of them are gay? 10%? That would fit the societal quota, but perhaps the comics culture is skewed towards a far lesser percentage.

Really, my point is that, in a cultural vacuum, many of us would probably be at least somewhat inclined toward homosexual acts. Some of us wouldn't be interested at all, some of us once ever, some of us perhaps a lot more. With the heterosexual societal pressures we have, most of us who can get it up for a woman just don't even consider the alternative.

Of the rest...how many of them have even BEEN sexually attracted to a member of the same sex, much less acted on it? And I don't mean that adolescent 'fooling around' business, because if you're in the middle of the spectrum, it's going to be a lifelong thing...

So, how many of you have 'done it' with a member of the same sex? Or even just entertained the idea in a fantasy situation? Hmmm?

Because that's what the spectrum suggests....that the majority of them fall 'somewhere in between', but....in reality, how often does that manifest itself into sexual expression?

Again, cultural programming gets in the way. For all intents and purposes, most of us here are straight. I'm just saying that limitation is imposed more by culture than nature. In ancient Greece, many more of us would probably have had a few gay experiences.

Is it just our culture the restricts the fluid sexuality of an otherwise vast majority of people 'in the middle of the spectrum'?

Yes, or at least that's my take on it.

Or, is the spectrum model itself entirely suspect?

Well anything that can't be proven is (or should be) suspect. However, that doesn't mean it isn't worth considering either.