Alien break the rules of the Valiant Universe!

[Ryan]

I get where Ryan is coming from in terms of the creative and production similarities and narrative threads, but I keep losing him on the issue of whether or not that makes them the same company and can't make him see that they're not, I don't understand why.

He keeps focusing on the fiction where I'm talking about the corporate structure, and the fact that the *SQUEE* ups at DMG people keep blaming Alien for, particularly re: the Kickstarter, have nothing to do with the latter.

lol what an epic self own this post is for MOTA

I actually can't tell if he really believes all these things or he's in some sort of troll spin

It's just weird to post all the Alien stuff and defend their comics all the time and then never bother to read a single comic. I don't get it. It must be shilling, right? Mota, is it shilling? No, it's the Kickstarter blah blah F-ups at DMG blah blah. No one's mentioned the kickstarter in like a year

I just hope we've all learned a valuable lesson about breaking the rules of the Valiant Universe!

[ManofTheAtom]

I've never said 'they're the same company'. I've said the comics are very similar. It's not a night and day difference like you're suggesting by saying they have absolutely no relation to each other. Which you would know if you read a single comic book by them.

The comics being similar does not mean they are the same company, which is what you and what's his name I put on ignore have spent the last several days insisting on.

Similarities between how the comics DMG published and the ones Alien publishes does not mean they are the same company, period. It also does not mean that Alien is liable for the *SQUEE* ups DMG committed prior to Alien acquiring the license to publish VALIANT comics.

Completely disagree. If you read a Marvel, Valiant, New Universe, and Broadway comic book all from when Shooter was EiC at those companies you will see a ton of similarities in the way that the stories are produced and presented.

Then compare those to a 90's Image comic, a 2000s Bendis comic, and a modern comic. The contrast is quite stark if you look closely at the details.

The EiC (or Senior Editor) has a huge influence in every aspect of how the comics are conceived, created, and presented. Especially at a small company like Valiant that is only producing 3-5 comics per month.

To act like the Senior Editor of DMG Valiant becoming the EiC of Alien Valiant is just 'hiring one of the employees' with no real impact is either willful ignorance or a total misunderstanding of how comics are produced.

That doesn't mean that VALIANT and Marvel were the same company just like it doesn't mean that DMG and Alien are the same company.

[Ryan]

I've never said 'they're the same company'. I've said the comics are very similar. It's not a night and day difference like you're suggesting by saying they have absolutely no relation to each other. Which you would know if you read a single comic book by them.

The comics being similar does not mean they are the same company, which is what you and what's his name I put on ignore have spent the last several days insisting on.

Similarities between how the comics DMG published and the ones Alien publishes does not mean they are the same company, period. It also does not mean that Alien is liable for the *SQUEE* ups DMG committed prior to Alien acquiring the license to publish VALIANT comics.

Completely disagree. If you read a Marvel, Valiant, New Universe, and Broadway comic book all from when Shooter was EiC at those companies you will see a ton of similarities in the way that the stories are produced and presented.

Then compare those to a 90's Image comic, a 2000s Bendis comic, and a modern comic. The contrast is quite stark if you look closely at the details.

The EiC (or Senior Editor) has a huge influence in every aspect of how the comics are conceived, created, and presented. Especially at a small company like Valiant that is only producing 3-5 comics per month.

To act like the Senior Editor of DMG Valiant becoming the EiC of Alien Valiant is just 'hiring one of the employees' with no real impact is either willful ignorance or a total misunderstanding of how comics are produced.

That doesn't mean that VALIANT and Marvel were the same company just like it doesn't mean that DMG and Alien are the same company.

I get it, the only way you can 'win' the argument is if you make it about me saying that 'DMG and Alien are the same company'. I never said that, and if you interpreted something as meaning that, I'm telling you now that's not what was meant.

I never said 'DMG and Alien are the same company'. I don't think that. If I said it by mistake, then I'm telling you now that's not what I meant. DMG and Alien are not the same company, but the Valiant comics they make are similar. Clear?

[ManofTheAtom]

I get it, the only way you can 'win' the argument is if you make it about me saying that 'DMG and Alien are the same company'. I never said that, and if you interpreted something as meaning that, I'm telling you now that's not what was meant.

I never said 'DMG and Alien are the same company'. I don't think that. If I said it by mistake, then I'm telling you now that's not what I meant. DMG and Alien are not the same company, but the Valiant comics they make are similar. Clear?

What you said was,

There's no truth to the claim that DMG and Alien are completely separate entities.

Fact is that DMG and Alien ARE completely separate entities. Similarities between the VALIANT comics published by the two does not mean that they the same. it merely means that Alien is continuing the branding DMG began just like they are the narrative threads.

It's no different from the VH 1 comics that Acclaim published still resembling the ones Voyager Communications published.

Do you see those similarities in their other comics that are not part of the VALIANT brand?

So, let's try to recapitulate yet once again.

You accused me of shilling for Alien.

I wasn't.

I was doing my *SQUEE* best to try to get people here to stop bashing Alien for DMG's *SQUEE* ups, particularly those concerning the Kickstarter.

Whatever those *SQUEE* ups were, no one at Alien had anything to do with them since they had nothing to do with the production of those comics, and they are not the same as DMG. They are an entirely separate company, period.

Just because Alien chose to continue the same narrative threads that DMG started instead of creating VH 4 or VH 5 or VH 6, it does not mean that one company owns the other.

[Ryan]

Fact is that DMG and Alien ARE completely separate entities. Similarities between the VALIANT comics published by the two does not mean that they the same. it merely means that Alien is continuing the branding DMG began just like they are the narrative threads.

It's no different from the VH 1 comics that Acclaim published still resembling the ones Voyager Communications published.

Do you see those similarities in their other comics that are not part of the VALIANT brand?

So, let's try to recapitulate yet once again.

You accused me of shilling for Alien.

I wasn't.

I was doing my *SQUEE* best to try to get people here to stop bashing Alien for DMG's *SQUEE* ups, particularly those concerning the Kickstarter.

Whatever those *SQUEE* ups were, no one at Alien had anything to do with them since they had nothing to do with the production of those comics, and they are not the same as DMG. They are an entirely separate company, period.

Just because Alien chose to continue the same narrative threads that DMG started instead of creating VH 4 or VH 5 or VH 6, it does not mean that one company owns the other.

So I guess you're interpreting my using 'entities' as being 'business entities' or I guess in your mind that became 'companies'. What I meant by entities, is 'publishing entities'. As in, from a reader's perspective, they don't feel like separate entities, the comics feel very similar, oh the EiC (aka SE) is the same person, that makes sense.

Maybe my use of 'entities' was incorrect or imprecise, so I retract that statement. It was a typo. I've now typed 50 times in this thread, DMG and Alien are not the same company. But you will ignore that because it doesn't fit the argument you want to make.

That doesn't mean that VALIANT and Marvel were the same company

The fact that you intentionally misinterpret my saying 'a Marvel and a Valiant comic both made when Shooter was EiC have a lot of similarities' into me saying 'Valiant and Marvel are the same company' is ridiculous and just shows your only intention is to be dishonest and twist what people are saying into whatever you want to argue against.

[ManofTheAtom]

So I guess you're interpreting my using 'entities' as being 'business entities' or I guess in your mind that became 'companies'. What I meant by entities, is 'publishing entities'. As in, from a reader's perspective, they don't feel like separate entities, the comics feel very similar, oh the EiC (aka SE) is the same person.

Maybe my use of 'entities' was incorrect or imprecise, so I retract that statement. It was a typo. I've now typed 50 times in this thread, DMG and Alien are not the same company. But you will ignore that because it doesn't fit the argument you want to make.

You stated that there's no truth to the claim that DMG and Alien are completely separate entities, and then used the fact that Alien hired the same editor that worked at DMG as "proof" to demonstrate that they are the same company. That's like arguing that Acclaim Comics and Voyager were the same company because Bob Layton worked at both before the former hired Nicieza to do VH 2.

You did that in response to my saying this,

I'm not going to indulge your lunacy of blaming one company for the failings of another. Alien had nothing to do with DMG's *SQUEE* ups. They weren't around when they happened. They only recently became involved with publishing VALIANT comics.

You were arguing against me stating that Alien is not to blame for DMG's *SQUEE* ups and that they are two different companies.

There was nothing to misinterpret into what you were saying.

The fact that you intentionally misinterpret my saying 'a Marvel and a Valiant comic both made when Shooter was EiC have a lot of similarities' into me saying 'Valiant and Marvel are the same company' is ridiculous and just shows you have only intention is to be dishonest and twist what people are saying into whatever you want to argue against.

Nothing is being misinterpreted. You keep using similarities in the way the comics look and the continuation of narrative threads from one company to the other as proof that the two companies are the same and, therefore, Alien is to blame for DMG's *SQUEE* ups from BEFORE Alien licensed the characters to produce these comics.

That's what you've been doing for the last two or three days, until now, when you're finally retracting it.

[ManofTheAtom]

The fact of the matter is that if Alien had not hired Hawkins and had started continuity from scratch, then the argument that the two companies are the same would have NEVER happened. No one would have made it.

That shows how flimsy the argument was to begin with.

[Chiclo]

I get where Ryan is coming from in terms of the creative and production similarities and narrative threads, but I keep losing him on the issue of whether or not that makes them the same company and can't make him see that they're not, I don't understand why.

He keeps focusing on the fiction where I'm talking about the corporate structure, and the fact that the *SQUEE* ups at DMG people keep blaming Alien for, particularly re: the Kickstarter, have nothing to do with the latter.

lol what an epic self own this post is for MOTA

I actually can't tell if he really believes all these things or he's in some sort of troll spin

It's just weird to post all the Alien stuff and defend their comics all the time and then never bother to read a single comic. I don't get it. It must be shilling, right? Mota, is it shilling? No, it's the Kickstarter blah blah F-ups at DMG blah blah. No one's mentioned the kickstarter in like a year

I just hope we've all learned a valuable lesson about breaking the rules of the Valiant Universe!

Maybe, just maybe, he is trying to keep in their good graces hoping that Alien will eventually let him write a Valient book.

[Chiclo]

The fact of the matter is that if Alien had not hired Hawkins and had started continuity from scratch, then the argument that the two companies are the same would have NEVER happened. No one would have made it.

That shows how flimsy the argument was to begin with.

Would you say that Alien has inherited DMG's mistakes?

[ManofTheAtom]

I get where Ryan is coming from in terms of the creative and production similarities and narrative threads, but I keep losing him on the issue of whether or not that makes them the same company and can't make him see that they're not, I don't understand why.

He keeps focusing on the fiction where I'm talking about the corporate structure, and the fact that the *SQUEE* ups at DMG people keep blaming Alien for, particularly re: the Kickstarter, have nothing to do with the latter.

lol what an epic self own this post is for MOTA

I actually can't tell if he really believes all these things or he's in some sort of troll spin

It's just weird to post all the Alien stuff and defend their comics all the time and then never bother to read a single comic. I don't get it. It must be shilling, right? Mota, is it shilling? No, it's the Kickstarter blah blah F-ups at DMG blah blah. No one's mentioned the kickstarter in like a year

I just hope we've all learned a valuable lesson about breaking the rules of the Valiant Universe!

Maybe, just maybe, he is trying to keep in their good graces hoping that Alien will eventually let him write a Valient book.

I'm not the one who brought that up.

[ManofTheAtom]

The fact of the matter is that if Alien had not hired Hawkins and had started continuity from scratch, then the argument that the two companies are the same would have NEVER happened. No one would have made it.

That shows how flimsy the argument was to begin with.

Would you say that Alien has inherited DMG's mistakes?

Why would I say that? Alien had nothing to do with *SQUEE* ups like the Kickstarter, so why would they be held responsible for it?

You might as well blame VALIANT for Marvel refusing to return Kirby's artwork because Shooter worked at both.

[Chiclo]

The fact of the matter is that if Alien had not hired Hawkins and had started continuity from scratch, then the argument that the two companies are the same would have NEVER happened. No one would have made it.

That shows how flimsy the argument was to begin with.

Would you say that Alien has inherited DMG's mistakes?

Why would I say that? Alien had nothing to do with *SQUEE* ups like the Kickstarter, so why would they be held responsible for it?

You might as well blame VALIANT for Marvel refusing to return Kirby's artwork because Shooter worked at both.

Could Alien have inherited DMG's mistakes regarding poor stewardship of the Valiant continuity, through lazy editing and poor creative teams?

Come on, MotA. We both know you have thoughts about lazy editing regarding the Valiant universe. At least, for the books you have read.

[ManofTheAtom]

The fact of the matter is that if Alien had not hired Hawkins and had started continuity from scratch, then the argument that the two companies are the same would have NEVER happened. No one would have made it.

That shows how flimsy the argument was to begin with.

Would you say that Alien has inherited DMG's mistakes?

Why would I say that? Alien had nothing to do with *SQUEE* ups like the Kickstarter, so why would they be held responsible for it?

You might as well blame VALIANT for Marvel refusing to return Kirby's artwork because Shooter worked at both.

Could Alien have inherited DMG's mistakes regarding poor stewardship of the Valiant continuity, through lazy editing and poor creative teams?

Come on, MotA. We both know you have thoughts about lazy editing regarding the Valiant universe. At least, for the books you have read.

You're not talking about Alien, you're talking about Hawkins, and your belief that the decisions she'll make at Alien will continue any perceived bad ones she made at VALIANT when DMG published the comics.

I asked people what Antos did that *SQUEE* them off and I barely got any answers to that other than accusations levied at her of making VALIANT woke and *SQUEE*.

If you want to attribute those bad decisions to Hawkins you have to discern how involved she was at VALIANT when they were made, or if she was just doing what those above her told her to do.

I don't know.

Are the editors that worked under Nicieza to blame for VH 2, or were they just doing their job supporting their EiC's idea?

[Chiclo]

It is my understanding that Lysa Hawkins and Heather Antos were more or less equals during the latter's tenure at Valiant? Was Antos the Senior Editor for a little while?

There was a point that Valiant had more editors than monthly titles.

[ManofTheAtom]

It is my understanding that Lysa Hawkins and Heather Antos were more or less equals during the latter's tenure at Valiant? Was Antos the Senior Editor for a little while?

There was a point that Valiant had more editors than monthly titles.

As Ryan has pointed out, Alien has published 20 comics already. So, the answer to your question would be in whether or not those 20 comics continue the same narrative problems that began at DMG or not.

Those who've read them both would have to decide that.

[Ryan]

So I guess you're interpreting my using 'entities' as being 'business entities' or I guess in your mind that became 'companies'. What I meant by entities, is 'publishing entities'. As in, from a reader's perspective, they don't feel like separate entities, the comics feel very similar, oh the EiC (aka SE) is the same person.

Maybe my use of 'entities' was incorrect or imprecise, so I retract that statement. It was a typo. I've now typed 50 times in this thread, DMG and Alien are not the same company. But you will ignore that because it doesn't fit the argument you want to make.

You stated that there's no truth to the claim that DMG and Alien are completely separate entities, and then used the fact that Alien hired the same editor that worked at DMG as "proof" to demonstrate that they are the same company. That's like arguing that Acclaim Comics and Voyager were the same company because Bob Layton worked at both before the former hired Nicieza to do VH 2.

You did that in response to my saying this,

I'm not going to indulge your lunacy of blaming one company for the failings of another. Alien had nothing to do with DMG's *SQUEE* ups. They weren't around when they happened. They only recently became involved with publishing VALIANT comics.

You were arguing against me stating that Alien is not to blame for DMG's *SQUEE* ups and that they are two different companies.

There was nothing to misinterpret into what you were saying.

The fact that you intentionally misinterpret my saying 'a Marvel and a Valiant comic both made when Shooter was EiC have a lot of similarities' into me saying 'Valiant and Marvel are the same company' is ridiculous and just shows you have only intention is to be dishonest and twist what people are saying into whatever you want to argue against.

Nothing is being misinterpreted. You keep using similarities in the way the comics look and the continuation of narrative threads from one company to the other as proof that the two companies are the same and, therefore, Alien is to blame for DMG's *SQUEE* ups from BEFORE Alien licensed the characters to produce these comics.

That's what you've been doing for the last two or three days, until now, when you're finally retracting it.

You're just a wholly dishonest person, and its tiresome.

[ManofTheAtom]

You're just a wholly dishonest person, and its tiresome.

Nothing I've said has been dishonest. I'm responding to what you've said and repeating it back to you.

The core problem is that we're debating two different things and you refuse to acknowledge that.

While I'm discussing the fact that Alien and DMG are to entirely different companies, you're focused solely on the former continuing the latter's narrative threads and incorrectly using that to argue that it makes them the same.

[ManofTheAtom]

The only reason this argument has gone as long as it has is because of people's refusal to acknowledge the easily acceptable fact that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and, therefore, should not be blamed for *SQUEE* ups with Kickstarters, NFTs, or any of that other *SQUEE* DMG was responsible for, and should instead be judged by what they ACTUALLY do.

[Ryan]

The only reason this argument has gone as long as it has is because of people's refusal to acknowledge the easily acceptable fact that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and, therefore, should not be blamed for *SQUEE* ups with Kickstarters, NFTs, or any of that other *SQUEE* DMG was responsible for, and should instead be judged by what they ACTUALLY do.

I never said 'DMG and Alien are the same company'. I don't think that. If I said it by mistake, then I'm telling you now that's not what I meant. DMG and Alien are not the same company, but the Valiant comics they make are similar. Clear?

Where in your brain this becomes 'a refusal to acknowledge that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and Kickstarters blah blah blah' is between you and your own brain.

[Ryan]

The only reason this argument has gone as long as it has is because of people's refusal to acknowledge the easily acceptable fact that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and, therefore, should not be blamed for *SQUEE* ups with Kickstarters, NFTs, or any of that other *SQUEE* DMG was responsible for, and should instead be judged by what they ACTUALLY do.

That's exactly what we're trying to do. Assess the 20+ comics that Alien has already published and put them into context in comparison to the recent "DMG comics era". What's changed, what's the same, are they similar or completely different?

Your the only one bringing up corporate structures, Kickstarters, NFTs, etc. We're trying to discuss the comics.

[syzhang28]

The only reason this argument has gone as long as it has is because of people's refusal to acknowledge the easily acceptable fact that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and, therefore, should not be blamed for *SQUEE* ups with Kickstarters, NFTs, or any of that other *SQUEE* DMG was responsible for, and should instead be judged by what they ACTUALLY do.

Another terrific self own lol

[ManofTheAtom]

The only reason this argument has gone as long as it has is because of people's refusal to acknowledge the easily acceptable fact that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and, therefore, should not be blamed for *SQUEE* ups with Kickstarters, NFTs, or any of that other *SQUEE* DMG was responsible for, and should instead be judged by what they ACTUALLY do.

That's exactly what we're trying to do. Assess the 20+ comics that Alien has already published and put them into context in comparison to the recent "DMG comics era". What's changed, what's the same, are they similar or completely different?

Your the only one bringing up corporate structures, Kickstarters, NFTs, etc. We're trying to discuss the comics.

I brought up in response to your accusing me of shilling for Alien.

Trying to get people to stop *SQUEE* on Alien over DMG's failure to fulfill the Kickstarter is not shilling.

What I was trying to do was get people to "Assess the 20+ comics that Alien has already published and put them into context in comparison to the recent "DMG comics era". What's changed, what's the same, are they similar or completely different?" before they published them.

I'm not responsible for derailing this conversation. The idiot that said I was insane for pointing out that Alien and DMG are two different companies did. You didn't help when you doubled down on that when you claimed that there is no truth to the fact that they are different entities.

[ManofTheAtom]

The only reason this argument has gone as long as it has is because of people's refusal to acknowledge the easily acceptable fact that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and, therefore, should not be blamed for *SQUEE* ups with Kickstarters, NFTs, or any of that other *SQUEE* DMG was responsible for, and should instead be judged by what they ACTUALLY do.

I never said 'DMG and Alien are the same company'. I don't think that. If I said it by mistake, then I'm telling you now that's not what I meant. DMG and Alien are not the same company, but the Valiant comics they make are similar. Clear?

Where in your brain this becomes 'a refusal to acknowledge that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and Kickstarters blah blah blah' is between you and your own brain.

It took you three days to acknowledge it. The troll never will.

[ManofTheAtom]

Just because the Secret Weapons one-shot Alien published continued plot threads introduced in Harbinger Wars 2 it does not mean that Alien and DMG are the same company and that Alien is liable for DMG's failure to fulfill a Kickstarter. Yet, that's the conclusion those who keep arguing that one needs to read the comics to determine whether Alien and DMG are different companies have reached.

[Chiclo]

The only reason this argument has gone as long as it has is because of people's refusal to acknowledge the easily acceptable fact that Alien Books is a different company than DMG and, therefore, should not be blamed for *SQUEE* ups with Kickstarters, NFTs, or any of that other *SQUEE* DMG was responsible for, and should instead be judged by what they ACTUALLY do.

It is kind of hard to be mad about the NFT things, since people that buy NFTs more or less play themselves. Beanie babies of the 2020s.

2010s? Beanie babies of the 2010s? When did NFTs roam the earth?