Why are you under whelmed by Shadowman?

[CallMeBloodshot]

I'm underwhelmed by Shadowman because I feel like I've read (or seen) all of this before. It's unoriginal and written to a formula just to sell the movie rights. They took away everything that was great about Jack and Darque and replaced it all with stereotypes. Jack is not exciting. Darque is not creepy. I only keep buying it because it's Valiant. But if I drop a title, this will be the first to go.

ouch!

Tell us what you really think

[Heath]

ouch!

Tell us what you really think

I usually do!

[CallMeBloodshot]

ouch!

Tell us what you really think

I usually do!

Haha well I feel your pain on Shadowman for the most part.

[lorddunlow]

I'm underwhelmed by Shadowman because I feel like I've read (or seen) all of this before. It's unoriginal and written to a formula just to sell the movie rights. They took away everything that was great about Jack and Darque and replaced it all with stereotypes. Jack is not exciting. Darque is not creepy. I only keep buying it because it's Valiant. But if I drop a title, this will be the first to go.

ouch!

Tell us what you really think

Don't get him started on variants if you were impressed by this sentiment.

[Heath]

Don't get him started on variants if you were impressed by this sentiment.

Actually, I'm fine to just ignore them now. I get one copy of each title. If a title has a non-premium variant (such as the pull-box), then I choose the cover I like most and forget any others. The sheer number of variants has made the idea of variants meaningless. That goes for all publishers.

[CallMeBloodshot]

Don't get him started on variants if you were impressed by this sentiment.

Actually, I'm fine to just ignore them now. I get one copy of each title. If a title has a non-premium variant (such as the pull-box), then I choose the cover I like most and forget any others. The sheer number of variants has made the idea of variants meaningless. That goes for all publishers.

It's a money grab

[Knightt]

Don't get him started on variants if you were impressed by this sentiment.

Actually, I'm fine to just ignore them now. I get one copy of each title. If a title has a non-premium variant (such as the pull-box), then I choose the cover I like most and forget any others. The sheer number of variants has made the idea of variants meaningless. That goes for all publishers.

It's a money grab

Anybody feel that the announcement "Valiant Title #X goes to Second Printing" because people/shops were buying the regular issues in order to pick up the variant ? Maybe the money maker for Valiant right now is their variant issues and not the stories ?

I don't know the comic math (don't care for a lecture either) but I seriously doubt any regular Valiant issues are appreciating in value (i.e. Walking Dead, Invincible, etc) vice any Valiant variant covers.

I know that I can go to Hastings and pick any number of early numbered (new) Valiant titles for $.99 a pop.

I'm not being a naysayer here, I'm just asking (and not wanting to spend the time trolling through what I am sure to be an already contested (Ad nauseam) topic.

For that matter, have any early issues (aside from variant covers) peaked past the point of $.99 to cover price ? (Invincible #1 from Image Comics seems pretty hot $#!t right now... how many variants of that #1 were there ?

[lorddunlow]

Oh no. I'm so sorry I derailed this onto variants. I'm so sick of this conversation. It was just a poke at Heath since he disappeared for months following a rather heated debate about variants during the relaunch.

[JustinJordan]

Just thought of this and never seen it explained anywhere (let alone in the comic) but what do these people (like Devereaux) get by helping Master Darque? As of right now it makes absolutely no sense.

I can tell you that's not a mistake or something I've ignored. What makes you think the Bretheren know what Darque is actually up to?

[CallMeBloodshot]

Just thought of this and never seen it explained anywhere (let alone in the comic) but what do these people (like Devereaux) get by helping Master Darque? As of right now it makes absolutely no sense.

I can tell you that's not a mistake or something I've ignored. What makes you think the Bretheren know what Darque is actually up to?

My point is, all it seems they want is more time. They're already rich and powerful, so I'm guessing they want to prolong their dominance over others. Seems like something we've seen so many times before, and its never made much sense if you think about it. I don't want these characters' motivations to fall victim to this trope of simplistic one dimensional villains: Those who are evil just for the sake of being evil. Ones where We're only meant to know that they want to do bad and that their motivation is to continue to prolong that end, yet we never are meant to understand the means for that end. I hate mindless followers in any medium. They're played out, nonsensical and unrealistic. The show The Following is a perfect example.

I hope I don't sound like a royal prick as I'm a fan of the book. And maybe Im jumping the gun on you too, but I just think there's too many questions unanswered. And they're not questions that add to the mystery of the mythos IMO. They're essential details that need fleshed out otherwise they take away from the logic of the story.

I actually very much enjoy your writing and appreciate that you provide feedback. I'm just not a fan of the brethren concept as it stands.

[Shadowman99]

Just thought of this and never seen it explained anywhere (let alone in the comic) but what do these people (like Devereaux) get by helping Master Darque? As of right now it makes absolutely no sense.

I can tell you that's not a mistake or something I've ignored. What makes you think the Bretheren know what Darque is actually up to?

My point is, all it seems they want is more time. They're already rich and powerful, so I'm guessing they want to prolong their dominance over others. Seems like something we've seen so many times before, and its never made much sense if you think about it. I don't want these characters' motivations to fall victim to this trope of simplistic one dimensional villains: Those who are evil just for the sake of being evil. Ones where We're only meant to know that they want to do bad and that their motivation is to continue to prolong that end, yet we never are meant to understand the means for that end. I hate mindless followers in any medium. They're played out, nonsensical and unrealistic. The show The Following is a perfect example.

I hope I don't sound like a royal prick as I'm a fan of the book. And maybe Im jumping the gun on you too, but I just think there's too many questions unanswered. And they're not questions that add to the mystery of the mythos IMO. They're essential details that need fleshed out otherwise they take away from the logic of the story.

I actually very much enjoy your writing and appreciate that you provide feedback. I'm just not a fan of the brethren concept as it stands.

Oh dear...

I wanted to say "Not that I'm taking sides", but I suppose I am...

Ideally, I would have let a few more books hit the shelves before asking this question myself. I completely agree with you that the concept of the Brotherhood and Darque's deal is (as of writing) unresolved, but I'm 100% confident that the scenario will be played out in its due course. As Justin said, I don't think for a second that he's forgotten about the Brotherhood at all: I think that the plotline simply has yet to reach its denouement.

And again, I agree with your thoughts on typical characterisation, but I think perhaps you've just been a bit premature with the question. I'm sure it'll all happen in the comics soon enough

[Chiclo]

I'm underwhelmed by Shadowman because I feel like I've read (or seen) all of this before. It's unoriginal and written to a formula just to sell the movie rights. They took away everything that was great about Jack and Darque and replaced it all with stereotypes. Jack is not exciting. Darque is not creepy. I only keep buying it because it's Valiant. But if I drop a title, this will be the first to go.

As is frequently the case, I agree with Heath up and down the line.

[JustinJordan]

Just thought of this and never seen it explained anywhere (let alone in the comic) but what do these people (like Devereaux) get by helping Master Darque? As of right now it makes absolutely no sense.

I can tell you that's not a mistake or something I've ignored. What makes you think the Bretheren know what Darque is actually up to?

My point is, all it seems they want is more time. They're already rich and powerful, so I'm guessing they want to prolong their dominance over others. Seems like something we've seen so many times before, and its never made much sense if you think about it. I don't want these characters' motivations to fall victim to this trope of simplistic one dimensional villains: Those who are evil just for the sake of being evil. Ones where We're only meant to know that they want to do bad and that their motivation is to continue to prolong that end, yet we never are meant to understand the means for that end. I hate mindless followers in any medium. They're played out, nonsensical and unrealistic. The show The Following is a perfect example.

I hope I don't sound like a royal prick as I'm a fan of the book. And maybe Im jumping the gun on you too, but I just think there's too many questions unanswered. And they're not questions that add to the mystery of the mythos IMO. They're essential details that need fleshed out otherwise they take away from the logic of the story.

I actually very much enjoy your writing and appreciate that you provide feedback. I'm just not a fan of the brethren concept as it stands.

The more time part is accurate. But it's not about being evil for the sake of being evil. The Bretheren leaders have achieved a high level of power and wealth, but that doesn't actually buy them a lot more life. Which is what they want. More time to enjoy what they've amassed.

That's the unifying thread for them. Now, individually, most of them have other goals and things they want to accomplish, but seeing as they haven't intersected with Shadowman, we don't see those other things. Or we haven't yet. The lower level Bretheren want various things, and they join for the same reason people join organized crime (or cults - there are different threads) - money and power. Some of them are just people doing a job.

To my mind, no one is in it for the evuls. Well, Twist was. And Deveraux is probably the most malicious of the people we've seen, but the opportunity to screw people is a bonus, not the goal.

[Knightt]

Oh no. I'm so sorry I derailed this onto variants. I'm so sick of this conversation. It was just a poke at Heath since he disappeared for months following a rather heated debate about variants during the relaunch.

As was mine...

[bygranddesign]

The more time part is accurate. But it's not about being evil for the sake of being evil. The Bretheren leaders have achieved a high level of power and wealth, but that doesn't actually buy them a lot more life. Which is what they want. More time to enjoy what they've amassed.

That's the unifying thread for them. Now, individually, most of them have other goals and things they want to accomplish, but seeing as they haven't intersected with Shadowman, we don't see those other things. Or we haven't yet. The lower level Bretheren want various things, and they join for the same reason people join organized crime (or cults - there are different threads) - money and power. Some of them are just people doing a job.

To my mind, no one is in it for the evuls. Well, Twist was. And Deveraux is probably the most malicious of the people we've seen, but the opportunity to screw people is a bonus, not the goal.

Awesome. Thanks for providing us with more insight on the Brethren. I'm hearing the Brethren will be part of the Sect Civil War storyline in Archer and Armstrong which should be interesting - with Master Darque as their leader you would think they'd have a distinct advantage.

[CallMeBloodshot]

Just thought of this and never seen it explained anywhere (let alone in the comic) but what do these people (like Devereaux) get by helping Master Darque? As of right now it makes absolutely no sense.

I can tell you that's not a mistake or something I've ignored. What makes you think the Bretheren know what Darque is actually up to?

My point is, all it seems they want is more time. They're already rich and powerful, so I'm guessing they want to prolong their dominance over others. Seems like something we've seen so many times before, and its never made much sense if you think about it. I don't want these characters' motivations to fall victim to this trope of simplistic one dimensional villains: Those who are evil just for the sake of being evil. Ones where We're only meant to know that they want to do bad and that their motivation is to continue to prolong that end, yet we never are meant to understand the means for that end. I hate mindless followers in any medium. They're played out, nonsensical and unrealistic. The show The Following is a perfect example.

I hope I don't sound like a royal prick as I'm a fan of the book. And maybe Im jumping the gun on you too, but I just think there's too many questions unanswered. And they're not questions that add to the mystery of the mythos IMO. They're essential details that need fleshed out otherwise they take away from the logic of the story.

I actually very much enjoy your writing and appreciate that you provide feedback. I'm just not a fan of the brethren concept as it stands.

The more time part is accurate. But it's not about being evil for the sake of being evil. The Bretheren leaders have achieved a high level of power and wealth, but that doesn't actually buy them a lot more life. Which is what they want. More time to enjoy what they've amassed.

That's the unifying thread for them. Now, individually, most of them have other goals and things they want to accomplish, but seeing as they haven't intersected with Shadowman, we don't see those other things. Or we haven't yet. The lower level Bretheren want various things, and they join for the same reason people join organized crime (or cults - there are different threads) - money and power. Some of them are just people doing a job.

To my mind, no one is in it for the evuls. Well, Twist was. And Deveraux is probably the most malicious of the people we've seen, but the opportunity to screw people is a bonus, not the goal.

That's the problem though when using groups with a cult mentality. They're almost always represented as having obvious goals (in this case prolonging their empowerment), yet their methods are always nonsensical. The reason is often for them to be a plot device like that show I mentioned. They exist solely to be this far reaching, unyielding group that the reader can never know the limits of. they exist to further the cause of the main villain and are rarely treated as more than one dimensional characters.

I just dont like how groups like the brethren are ever portrayed. They can have strange motivations, but we could at least understand them if theyre ever developed beyond how they appear on the surface. But they never are. At this point, considering we know nothing about them except their unbending loyalty to Darque, it seems more of that same trope.

[lorddunlow]

Great idea! Pulse can live on in the Deadside!!!!

Just an idea. You can have full rights to this idea if you can bring Pulse back, Mr. Jordan.




Pretty please?

With cherries on top?

[Knightt]

Valiant. Where dead is dead.

[lorddunlow]

Valiant. Where dead is dead.

But she would be dead, just a viable character again.

[Knightt]

I don't think that's whats meant by that statement, bud.

Besides, bringing back characters is old. Live with your grief !!

[bygranddesign]

That's the problem though when using groups with a cult mentality. They're almost always represented as having obvious goals (in this case prolonging their empowerment), yet their methods are always nonsensical. The reason is often for them to be a plot device like that show I mentioned. They exist solely to be this far reaching, unyielding group that the reader can never know the limits of. they exist to further the cause of the main villain and are rarely treated as more than one dimensional characters.

I just dont like how groups like the brethren are ever portrayed. They can have strange motivations, but we could at least understand them if theyre ever developed beyond how they appear on the surface. But they never are. At this point, considering we know nothing about them except their unbending loyalty to Darque, it seems more of that same trope.

if you were going to join a murderous cult

one that provides power, wealth and a chance of immortality is not a bad one to join

i'm not sure what else needs to be said in terms of motivation - there are probably a multitude of reasons why people join cults from religious zealotry, irrational fear, delusions of grandeur, sickening depravities, greed/wealth/power to more innocent reasons regarding faith or just being born into it or in the case of low level thugs money to just get by..

In terms of methods ... I'm not sure where the Brethren have been nonsensical. I'm sure they don't know what Master Darque has planned once he is on Earth ...they only know what they have been told and promised to them. You as the reader have more information than they do about what he is truly about. And we don't really know at this point what Master Darque has planned for the Brethren .. Maybe he will indeed give them great power when he comes to earth and turn everyone else who are not his followers into mindless monsters..

[CallMeBloodshot]

That's the problem though when using groups with a cult mentality. They're almost always represented as having obvious goals (in this case prolonging their empowerment), yet their methods are always nonsensical. The reason is often for them to be a plot device like that show I mentioned. They exist solely to be this far reaching, unyielding group that the reader can never know the limits of. they exist to further the cause of the main villain and are rarely treated as more than one dimensional characters.

I just dont like how groups like the brethren are ever portrayed. They can have strange motivations, but we could at least understand them if theyre ever developed beyond how they appear on the surface. But they never are. At this point, considering we know nothing about them except their unbending loyalty to Darque, it seems more of that same trope.

if you were going to join a murderous cult

one that provides power, wealth and a chance of immortality is not a bad one to join

i'm not sure what else needs to be said in terms of motivation - there are probably a multitude of reasons why people join cults from religious zealotry, irrational fear, delusions of grandeur, sickening depravities, greed/wealth/power to more innocent reasons regarding faith or just being born into it or in the case of low level thugs money to just get by..

In terms of methods ... I'm not sure where the Brethren have been nonsensical. I'm sure they don't know what Master Darque has planned once he is on Earth ...they only know what they have been told and promised to them. You as the reader have more information than they do about what he is truly about. And we don't really know at this point what Master Darque has planned for the Brethren .. Maybe he will indeed give them great power when he comes to earth and turn everyone else who are not his followers into mindless monsters..

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

[BugsySig]

That's the problem though when using groups with a cult mentality. They're almost always represented as having obvious goals (in this case prolonging their empowerment), yet their methods are always nonsensical. The reason is often for them to be a plot device like that show I mentioned. They exist solely to be this far reaching, unyielding group that the reader can never know the limits of. they exist to further the cause of the main villain and are rarely treated as more than one dimensional characters.

I just dont like how groups like the brethren are ever portrayed. They can have strange motivations, but we could at least understand them if theyre ever developed beyond how they appear on the surface. But they never are. At this point, considering we know nothing about them except their unbending loyalty to Darque, it seems more of that same trope.

if you were going to join a murderous cult

one that provides power, wealth and a chance of immortality is not a bad one to join

i'm not sure what else needs to be said in terms of motivation - there are probably a multitude of reasons why people join cults from religious zealotry, irrational fear, delusions of grandeur, sickening depravities, greed/wealth/power to more innocent reasons regarding faith or just being born into it or in the case of low level thugs money to just get by..

In terms of methods ... I'm not sure where the Brethren have been nonsensical. I'm sure they don't know what Master Darque has planned once he is on Earth ...they only know what they have been told and promised to them. You as the reader have more information than they do about what he is truly about. And we don't really know at this point what Master Darque has planned for the Brethren .. Maybe he will indeed give them great power when he comes to earth and turn everyone else who are not his followers into mindless monsters..

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

Dude, its on issue #7...in a book that's not about them...where they aren't even the main antagonist.

I think too many people are either a) spoiled by the generation of twitter and 24 hour news cycles and expect everything immediately, or b) spoiled by trade waiting and are used to reading 4-8 issues at one time.

Justin, et al, have 22 pages to tell a story about Shadowman and Master Darque (who I see as the co-main character). I think they have done a very good job at that story through 8 issues (including #0), especially during the second arc. I can wait to find out what the Brethren's deal is for a few more issues.

[CallMeBloodshot]

That's the problem though when using groups with a cult mentality. They're almost always represented as having obvious goals (in this case prolonging their empowerment), yet their methods are always nonsensical. The reason is often for them to be a plot device like that show I mentioned. They exist solely to be this far reaching, unyielding group that the reader can never know the limits of. they exist to further the cause of the main villain and are rarely treated as more than one dimensional characters.

I just dont like how groups like the brethren are ever portrayed. They can have strange motivations, but we could at least understand them if theyre ever developed beyond how they appear on the surface. But they never are. At this point, considering we know nothing about them except their unbending loyalty to Darque, it seems more of that same trope.

if you were going to join a murderous cult

one that provides power, wealth and a chance of immortality is not a bad one to join

i'm not sure what else needs to be said in terms of motivation - there are probably a multitude of reasons why people join cults from religious zealotry, irrational fear, delusions of grandeur, sickening depravities, greed/wealth/power to more innocent reasons regarding faith or just being born into it or in the case of low level thugs money to just get by..

In terms of methods ... I'm not sure where the Brethren have been nonsensical. I'm sure they don't know what Master Darque has planned once he is on Earth ...they only know what they have been told and promised to them. You as the reader have more information than they do about what he is truly about. And we don't really know at this point what Master Darque has planned for the Brethren .. Maybe he will indeed give them great power when he comes to earth and turn everyone else who are not his followers into mindless monsters..

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

Dude, its on issue #7...in a book that's not about them...where they aren't even the main antagonist.

I think too many people are either a) spoiled by the generation of twitter and 24 hour news cycles and expect everything immediately, or b) spoiled by trade waiting and are used to reading 4-8 issues at one time.

Justin, et al, have 22 pages to tell a story about Shadowman and Master Darque (who I see as the co-main character). I think they have done a very good job at that story through 8 issues (including #0), especially during the second arc. I can wait to find out what the Brethren's deal is for a few more issues.

I don't think thts a fair assessment. I'm not even on twitter. Can't a person be critical of a comic anymore without being overgeneralized like that? Geez. Come on man, I even said I enjoy the comic. Doesnt mean i cant find flaws. It's a discussion board about Valiant comics. This tread in particular is about being critical of it. People on here should expect such evaluations. On the appreciation thread I'll appreciate it. On the "what do I find underwhelming about it" thread I'll do just that.

[BugsySig]

That's the problem though when using groups with a cult mentality. They're almost always represented as having obvious goals (in this case prolonging their empowerment), yet their methods are always nonsensical. The reason is often for them to be a plot device like that show I mentioned. They exist solely to be this far reaching, unyielding group that the reader can never know the limits of. they exist to further the cause of the main villain and are rarely treated as more than one dimensional characters.

I just dont like how groups like the brethren are ever portrayed. They can have strange motivations, but we could at least understand them if theyre ever developed beyond how they appear on the surface. But they never are. At this point, considering we know nothing about them except their unbending loyalty to Darque, it seems more of that same trope.

if you were going to join a murderous cult

one that provides power, wealth and a chance of immortality is not a bad one to join

i'm not sure what else needs to be said in terms of motivation - there are probably a multitude of reasons why people join cults from religious zealotry, irrational fear, delusions of grandeur, sickening depravities, greed/wealth/power to more innocent reasons regarding faith or just being born into it or in the case of low level thugs money to just get by..

In terms of methods ... I'm not sure where the Brethren have been nonsensical. I'm sure they don't know what Master Darque has planned once he is on Earth ...they only know what they have been told and promised to them. You as the reader have more information than they do about what he is truly about. And we don't really know at this point what Master Darque has planned for the Brethren .. Maybe he will indeed give them great power when he comes to earth and turn everyone else who are not his followers into mindless monsters..

that's the nonsensical bit. Why get involved with and even dedicate yourself to a man who calls himself Master Darque (from the deadside I might add) without thinking this through? I get their motivation, its how underdeveloped they are that leaves the reader wanting of compelling characterization. As a writer: don't just tell me their loyal brethren, show me why they are.

Also I completely agree with the reasons as to why people join a cult. No one argues that. The point is their usage in this type of media. They're conveniently shortsighted for the sake of being that limitless unrelentingly loyal group that I've spoke of.

Dude, its on issue #7...in a book that's not about them...where they aren't even the main antagonist.

I think too many people are either a) spoiled by the generation of twitter and 24 hour news cycles and expect everything immediately, or b) spoiled by trade waiting and are used to reading 4-8 issues at one time.

Justin, et al, have 22 pages to tell a story about Shadowman and Master Darque (who I see as the co-main character). I think they have done a very good job at that story through 8 issues (including #0), especially during the second arc. I can wait to find out what the Brethren's deal is for a few more issues.

I don't think thts a fair assessment. I'm not even on twitter. Can't a person be critical of a comic anymore without being overgeneralized like that? Geez. Come on man, I even said I enjoy the comic. Doesnt mean i cant find flaws. It's a discussion board about Valiant comics. This tread in particular is about being critical of it. People on here should expect such evaluations. On the appreciation thread I'll appreciate it. On the "what do I find underwhelming about it" thread I'll do just that.

Wasn't directed at you...that's why I said too many people...I just see a lot of "why don't we know more about X background characters motivation" when a book isn't even through its second arc. Complaints about a main character's motivation or characterization I think are legit at such a point in a books life and I have expressed how I am underwhelmed with that as of this point.

You can find any flaws you want, I do it all the time (Hell, I'm the one who pointed out the discrepancy in the waitress' name), I just can't do so yet with a small piece of a book so early in its run. Are the Brethren generic villains right now? Sure. But there is time to developed them and have their motivation explored after the same is done for more important characters IMHO.