BobLayton.com: Unpublished VALIANT Yearbook Cover Timewalker

[ManofTheAtom]

Vern: You think Mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?
Teddy: What are you, cracked?
Vern: No, I saw him on TV the other day, he was holding five elephants in one hand.
Teddy: Boy, you don't know nothing. Mighty Mouse is a cartoon. Superman's a real guy. There's no way a cartoon could beat up a real guy.
Vern: I guess you're right. It'd be a good fight though.

I always thought the humor in that scene came from the kids thinking Superman was "a real guy."

He's not.

He's a make believe guy.

Just like Mighty Mouse.

Except Mighty Mouse is a make believe mouse, not a guy. But he's a guy mouse. The point is, they're both make believe. Neither is any more or less "real" than the other.

And when exactly did you loose the passion for this?

Let me guess, now when you watch Star Wars instead of being impressed by the light sabers you wonder how they managed to cover the wooden sticks with green and red light, right?

[mavros]

So then, your answer is that it would not have been a reboot.

So all Fabien would have had to do to make VH2 not be a reboot, would have been for all of the characters to have read comic book versions of themselves.

Sounds to me like somebody wants DC Lite.

Actually all Fabian had to do was NOT replace one universe with another using rules set up by DC and Marvel 40 years ago.

Imagine, if only he had edited VALIANT like they were VALIANT comics instead of pretending they were DC or Marvel.

How in the hell can X-O Manowar have a crossover with Iron Man?

Answer that one.

I'm going to guess the same way that Magnus and Predator had a crossover?

(...which was written by Jim Shooter... the man behind the 'world outside your window' concept... not to be confused with the man outside your window... that would be the Easter Bunny).

[ManofTheAtom]

So then, your answer is that it would not have been a reboot.

So all Fabien would have had to do to make VH2 not be a reboot, would have been for all of the characters to have read comic book versions of themselves.

Sounds to me like somebody wants DC Lite.

Actually all Fabian had to do was NOT replace one universe with another using rules set up by DC and Marvel 40 years ago.

Imagine, if only he had edited VALIANT like they were VALIANT comics instead of pretending they were DC or Marvel.

How in the hell can X-O Manowar have a crossover with Iron Man?

Answer that one.

I'm going to guess the same way that Magnus and Predator had a crossover?

(...which was written by Jim Shooter... the man behind the 'world outside your window' concept... not to be confused with the man outside your window... that would be the Easter Bunny).

Predators aren't comic book characters or cartoons.

[mavros]

So then, your answer is that it would not have been a reboot.

So all Fabien would have had to do to make VH2 not be a reboot, would have been for all of the characters to have read comic book versions of themselves.

Sounds to me like somebody wants DC Lite.

Actually all Fabian had to do was NOT replace one universe with another using rules set up by DC and Marvel 40 years ago.

Imagine, if only he had edited VALIANT like they were VALIANT comics instead of pretending they were DC or Marvel.

How in the hell can X-O Manowar have a crossover with Iron Man?

Answer that one.

I'm going to guess the same way that Magnus and Predator had a crossover?

(...which was written by Jim Shooter... the man behind the 'world outside your window' concept... not to be confused with the man outside your window... that would be the Easter Bunny).

Predators aren't comic book characters or cartoons.

So therefore the X-men and Star Trek crossover is justified?

[ManofTheAtom]

So therefore the X-men and Star Trek crossover is justified?

I guess. It doesn't make it any less lame.

[mavros]

So therefore the X-men and Star Trek crossover is justified?

I guess. It doesn't make it any less lame.

Oh, I won't dispute that.

But basically this seems to boil down to the writer's execution of the crossover and reader preference rather than what media each of the characters are crossing over from.

[ManofTheAtom]

So therefore the X-men and Star Trek crossover is justified?

I guess. It doesn't make it any less lame.

Oh, I won't dispute that.

But basically this seems to boil down to the writer's execution of the crossover and reader preference rather than what media each of the characters are crossing over from.

Not really. It has more to do with the compability of the concepts as well as where the source material comes from.

Woody Woodpecker in the ER could be the best written, acted, and directed episode of the series, but it would still be Woody Woodpecker in the ER.

[mavros]

So therefore the X-men and Star Trek crossover is justified?

I guess. It doesn't make it any less lame.

Oh, I won't dispute that.

But basically this seems to boil down to the writer's execution of the crossover and reader preference rather than what media each of the characters are crossing over from.

Not really. It has more to do with the compability of the concepts as well as where the source material comes from.

Woody Woodpecker in the ER could be the best written, acted, and directed episode of the series, but it would still be Woody Woodpecker in the ER.

Yep. Compatibility is important.

And your example of Woody Woodpecker in ER would be ludricous... but I don't see how two comic book characters who wear armor crossovering are as incompatible as the example you present.

[ManofTheAtom]

So therefore the X-men and Star Trek crossover is justified?

I guess. It doesn't make it any less lame.

Oh, I won't dispute that.

But basically this seems to boil down to the writer's execution of the crossover and reader preference rather than what media each of the characters are crossing over from.

Not really. It has more to do with the compability of the concepts as well as where the source material comes from.

Woody Woodpecker in the ER could be the best written, acted, and directed episode of the series, but it would still be Woody Woodpecker in the ER.

Yep. Compatibility is important.

And your example of Woody Woodpecker in ER would be ludricous... but I don't see how two comic book characters who wear armor crossovering are as incompatible as the example you present.

Iron Man is a comic book character in X-O Manowar's world, so how can the two of them meet?

[mavros]

So therefore the X-men and Star Trek crossover is justified?

I guess. It doesn't make it any less lame.

Oh, I won't dispute that.

But basically this seems to boil down to the writer's execution of the crossover and reader preference rather than what media each of the characters are crossing over from.

Not really. It has more to do with the compability of the concepts as well as where the source material comes from.

Woody Woodpecker in the ER could be the best written, acted, and directed episode of the series, but it would still be Woody Woodpecker in the ER.

Yep. Compatibility is important.

And your example of Woody Woodpecker in ER would be ludricous... but I don't see how two comic book characters who wear armor crossovering are as incompatible as the example you present.

Iron Man is a comic book character in X-O Manowar's world, so how can the two of them meet?

Well, you'd have to read the comic book to find out how Fabian did that.

But precedent established by in Predator versus Magnus would allow it. Predator is a movie in the Valiant Universe as well.

[ManofTheAtom]

Well, you'd have to read the comic book to find out how Fabian did that.

But precedent established by in Predator versus Magnus would allow it. Predator is a movie in the VALIANT Universe as well.

You're assuming that. There's no proof whatsoever that Predator is a movie in the VALIANT U (or at least in Shooter's comics).

As for how Fabian did it, he had Iron Man's world affect Aric's through the Cosmic Cube.

That's like watching Star Trek and being transported onboard the Enterprise, which wouldn't happen.

That's why I mentioned Last Action Hero, which was a case of the "real world" affecting Jack Slater's fictional world through the magic ticket.

[mavros]

Well, you'd have to read the comic book to find out how Fabian did that.

But precedent established by in Predator versus Magnus would allow it. Predator is a movie in the VALIANT Universe as well.

You're assuming that. There's no proof whatsoever that Predator is a movie in the VALIANT U (or at least in Shooter's comics).

As for how Fabian did it, he had Iron Man's world affect Aric's through the Cosmic Cube.

That's like watching Star Trek and being transported onboard the Enterprise, which wouldn't happen.

That's why I mentioned Last Action Hero, which was a case of the "real world" affecting Jack Slater's fictional world through the magic ticket.

It's an assumption, but it's a safe one.

Well, if Batman is a comic book character in Shooter's world as established when Zephyr gets the toys for Christmas (again, working on an assumption as all I can recall seeing were the toys and not comic books).

Batman does have a crossover in comics with Predator in 1991 (prior to the 1992 publication of Magnus vs. Predator).

So is it logically to assume that all the comics with Batman that came out in our own reality also came out as well in the Valiant U? If not, why not?

I haven't read the Iron Man crossover but the way you describe it seems like it was a question of execution rather than incompatibility of concepts. Rather than the cosmic cube, would a more suitable device for a crossover involve Solar having a mental meltdown and popping out comic book characters that he read about?

[muzzsucker]

Well, you'd have to read the comic book to find out how Fabian did that.

But precedent established by in Predator versus Magnus would allow it. Predator is a movie in the VALIANT Universe as well.

You're assuming that. There's no proof whatsoever that Predator is a movie in the VALIANT U (or at least in Shooter's comics).

As for how Fabian did it, he had Iron Man's world affect Aric's through the Cosmic Cube.

That's like watching Star Trek and being transported onboard the Enterprise, which wouldn't happen.

That's why I mentioned Last Action Hero, which was a case of the "real world" affecting Jack Slater's fictional world through the magic ticket.

It's an assumption, but it's a safe one.

Well, if Batman is a comic book character in Shooter's world as established when Zephyr gets the toys for Christmas (again, working on an assumption as all I can recall seeing were the toys and not comic books).

Batman does have a crossover in comics with Predator in 1991 (prior to the 1992 publication of Magnus vs. Predator).

So is it logically to assume that all the comics with Batman that came out in our own reality also came out as well in the VALIANT U? If not, why not?

I haven't read the Iron Man crossover but the way you describe it seems like it was a question of execution rather than incompatibility of concepts. Rather than the cosmic cube, would a more suitable device for a crossover involve Solar having a mental meltdown and popping out comic book characters that he read about?

Valiant is the world outside my window right?

Outside my window is a a video store and inside the store is a video called Predator. I'm assuming this also happens in the Valiant Universe, and I don't remember Magnus' saying "Whoa !aren't you the bad guy from that way old AH-nuld movie?"

[slym2none]

Wow.



-slym (will never get that 6 minutes of his life back)

[mavros]

Well, you'd have to read the comic book to find out how Fabian did that.

But precedent established by in Predator versus Magnus would allow it. Predator is a movie in the VALIANT Universe as well.

You're assuming that. There's no proof whatsoever that Predator is a movie in the VALIANT U (or at least in Shooter's comics).

As for how Fabian did it, he had Iron Man's world affect Aric's through the Cosmic Cube.

That's like watching Star Trek and being transported onboard the Enterprise, which wouldn't happen.

That's why I mentioned Last Action Hero, which was a case of the "real world" affecting Jack Slater's fictional world through the magic ticket.

It's an assumption, but it's a safe one.

Well, if Batman is a comic book character in Shooter's world as established when Zephyr gets the toys for Christmas (again, working on an assumption as all I can recall seeing were the toys and not comic books).

Batman does have a crossover in comics with Predator in 1991 (prior to the 1992 publication of Magnus vs. Predator).

So is it logically to assume that all the comics with Batman that came out in our own reality also came out as well in the VALIANT U? If not, why not?

I haven't read the Iron Man crossover but the way you describe it seems like it was a question of execution rather than incompatibility of concepts. Rather than the cosmic cube, would a more suitable device for a crossover involve Solar having a mental meltdown and popping out comic book characters that he read about?

VALIANT is the world outside my window right?

Outside my window is a a video store and inside the store is a video called Predator. I'm assuming this also happens in the VALIANT Universe, and I don't remember Magnus' saying "Whoa !aren't you the bad guy from that way old AH-nuld movie?"

Which is exactly my point. We didn't see that happen. Valiant isn't an exact copy of the world outside your window.

The "world outside your window" premise isnt so concrete that it eliminates any chance of having a crossover with Iron Man based on the simple fact that he is a comic book character if it is executed properly.

Who's to say that the XO/Iron Man Crossover wasn't actually a comic published in XO's reality using a real world celebrity? Sort of like in our reality we have Muhammad Ali reading the comic book in which they have him fight Superman? (That would be one way they could disregard the story...)

[myron]

Wow.



-slym (will never get that 6 minutes of his life back)

MmmHmmmm...reminds you of the line from "Billy Madison":

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[ManofTheAtom]

Which is exactly my point. We didn't see that happen. VALIANT isn't an exact copy of the world outside your window.

The "world outside your window" premise isnt so concrete that it eliminates any chance of having a crossover with Iron Man based on the simple fact that he is a comic book character if it is executed properly.

Who's to say that the XO/Iron Man Crossover wasn't actually a comic published in XO's reality using a real world celebrity? Sort of like in our reality we have Muhammad Ali reading the comic book in which they have him fight Superman? (That would be one way they could disregard the story...)

That's the only way it would work, if everything published by Acclaim starting with the crossover all the way to Unity 2000 #3 took place in comic books published within the VALIANT Universe.

[Heath]

That's the only way it would work, if everything published by Acclaim starting with the crossover all the way to Unity 2000 #3 took place in comic books published within the VALIANT Universe.

Or, what about the reverse? What if everything between Magnus #1, through Unity, and all the way to X-O #68 really happened as comic books published in the Acclaim universe?

[ManofTheAtom]

That's the only way it would work, if everything published by Acclaim starting with the crossover all the way to Unity 2000 #3 took place in comic books published within the VALIANT Universe.

Or, what about the reverse? What if everything between Magnus #1, through Unity, and all the way to X-O #68 really happened as comic books published in the Acclaim universe?

That be lame, but those who want Dumbo to be the captain of the Enteprise would be extremely happy.

[ManofTheAtom]

VALIANT is the world outside my window right?

Outside my window is a a video store and inside the store is a video called Predator. I'm assuming this also happens in the VALIANT Universe, and I don't remember Magnus' saying "Whoa !aren't you the bad guy from that way old AH-nuld movie?"

That doesn't guarantee that the movie exists in the VALIANT Universe.

We know the movie Conan does, but that doesn't mean that Predator does too.

[ManofTheAtom]

It's an assumption, but it's a safe one.

Well, if Batman is a comic book character in Shooter's world as established when Zephyr gets the toys for Christmas (again, working on an assumption as all I can recall seeing were the toys and not comic books).

Batman does have a crossover in comics with Predator in 1991 (prior to the 1992 publication of Magnus vs. Predator).

So is it logically to assume that all the comics with Batman that came out in our own reality also came out as well in the VALIANT U? If not, why not?

I haven't read the Iron Man crossover but the way you describe it seems like it was a question of execution rather than incompatibility of concepts. Rather than the cosmic cube, would a more suitable device for a crossover involve Solar having a mental meltdown and popping out comic book characters that he read about?

The reason why Predators' able to have a crossover with Witchblade, Darkness, Batman, Superman, and all those other characters is because Predators also exist in those universes.

[Heath]

That's the only way it would work, if everything published by Acclaim starting with the crossover all the way to Unity 2000 #3 took place in comic books published within the VALIANT Universe.

Or, what about the reverse? What if everything between Magnus #1, through Unity, and all the way to X-O #68 really happened as comic books published in the Acclaim universe?

That be lame, but those who want Dumbo to be the captain of the Enteprise would be extremely happy.

And we would be really excited if Acclaim had a crossover with Captain Dumbo and the crew!

Dino, if you're reading this, that is an idea you can't pass up! All I want for this marvelous idea is a tribute page on the inside front cover, and 10% of all profits from the issue!

[siren3-4]

That's the only way it would work, if everything published by Acclaim starting with the crossover all the way to Unity 2000 #3 took place in comic books published within the VALIANT Universe.

I didn't read this whole thing, but I caught this and it actually seems like a neat idea.

The only way to keep everything and still possibily be able to publish an acclaim story every now and then. The storys could be written by a Geomancer in the Valiant U so he knows all the people the charachters are based on.

[mavros]

It's an assumption, but it's a safe one.

Well, if Batman is a comic book character in Shooter's world as established when Zephyr gets the toys for Christmas (again, working on an assumption as all I can recall seeing were the toys and not comic books).

Batman does have a crossover in comics with Predator in 1991 (prior to the 1992 publication of Magnus vs. Predator).

So is it logically to assume that all the comics with Batman that came out in our own reality also came out as well in the VALIANT U? If not, why not?

I haven't read the Iron Man crossover but the way you describe it seems like it was a question of execution rather than incompatibility of concepts. Rather than the cosmic cube, would a more suitable device for a crossover involve Solar having a mental meltdown and popping out comic book characters that he read about?

The reason why Predators' able to have a crossover with Witchblade, Darkness, Batman, Superman, and all those other characters is because Predators also exist in those universes.

Actually, no, they don't exist. Batman/Predator is an out-of-canon story in the DC Universe.

You are trying to attach an unyielding rule to the Valiant Universe which isn't so unyielding, even when the architect of the Valiant Universe wrote something that contradicts your rule.

Which is the bigger assumption? ALL the comics published in the real world are the same as the ones published in Valiant U (with the exception of Valiant comics). Or that they produce the same comics that we have but on a selective basis?

Which is the bigger assumption? ALL the movies that came out in the real world are the same as the ones relaeased in the Valiant U. Or that they selectively release them? They've established that Conan does exist, an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, so why is the line arbitrarily drawn at Predator? And if they are going to start eliminating Arnold movies from existence why couldn't they have chosen 'Junior' instead?

There is nothing in any of Shooter's work with Valiant that automatically condemns any attempts at a crossover with another comic book character, if it was done properly.

You're taking the "world outside your window" premise and trying to apply it too literally when something arises that you have no preference for.

[X-O HoboJoe]

Which is exactly my point. We didn't see that happen. VALIANT isn't an exact copy of the world outside your window.

So, it being a fictional universe, pretty much anything that sells comics consistantly goes. It's fueled by the gas of profit and steered by the creativity of the creators. Complaining about it because I'm not the EIC or a writer, artist, etc., seems like an odd way to push my job application to those writing the checks.