What exactly is a Valiant Continuity Bible?

brianlock · Post by **brianlock** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:56 pm

I know this has been discussed in the past, but I'd appreciate it if someone could fill me in on this apparently rare item. I know it contains an outline of the Valiant U, but how much of it is unpublished or "secret" info? Why is it so rare/expensive if there are already copies of it floating around? Why aren't there more copies? Please let me know. Thanks!

Todd Luck · Post by **Todd Luck** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:37 pm

Typically "bibles" are in-office books that outline who the characters are, where they're going, the details of their universe etc. Since they're mainly for reference for a small group of writers, editors, etc I wouldn't think that many copies would be in existance, so they would be very rare. There are some unpublished details about various things in there. How much, I don't know.

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:33 pm

I wouldn't mind posting a full debrief on this story if it didn't *SQUEE* me off so much. So I'll let someone else do it.

brianlock · Post by **brianlock** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:47 pm

I just did a bit of "research" and found out the general info of what the "bible" is. Now I'd like to know why it is so vaunted and why it causes people so much grief. Apparently, unlimited copies of it were offered at cost not too long ago. I don't get it...

Daniel Jackson · Post by **Daniel Jackson** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:52 pm

The other copies were made before the new owners came into play.

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:35 am

I made copies at cost.

I even made a copy for one of the new owners, before he was an owner.

Last June, I was told to stop making anymore copies by this new owner.

I need a new suit.....just not a lawsuit.---Steve

Besides, everytime I tried to post my offer, it was erased because this site's Adminisrator was trying to protect himself from getting negative flack from this hypocritical new owner. JMO.

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:46 am

Vault-Keeper wrote:hypocritical new owner.

nail on the head.

~Unblessed

myron · Post by **myron** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:24 am

ManofTheAtom · Post by **ManofTheAtom** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:27 am

Hey, guys. Let's not go down the same path again, heh.

Let's concentrate on talking about the content of the bible instead of the other stuff, k?

So, Yuri Pierce... I wonder what untold story he came from.

Trenton Sy · Post by **Trenton Sy** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:56 am

I know, I got here just a little late for VK's 2005 printing of the VCB and BOG - and I am still trying to find them somewhere or at least some of the info - ah well, someday I will get ahold of one. I am stil looking for the GBA demo of the Static Shock game that was cancelled by Midway too - I would be suprised if I found either but I am hopeful.

Will · Post by **Will** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:38 pm

Is all the "you can't do that" crap from the character owners or the name owners?

All this time, I've been feeling that name owners are the *skree* and that the character owners are getting screwed, but this is someone's chance to steer me straight.

Is Greg getting crap from both? Or is the the Hypocritical Owner getting panties in a bunch?

Someone help.

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:28 pm

Will wrote: Someone help.

I am reminded of the song from Office Space Damn it feels good to be a gangsta. Particularly the line where the one gansta sings:

"But real gangsta-a$s *****s don't flex much
Cuz real gangsta-a$s *****s know they got em."

~Unblessed

magnusr · Post by **magnusr** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:32 am

Will wrote:all the "you can't do that" crap

Might very well be a complete misunderstanding, but from some old posts I had gotten the impression that all sides of this mess had to walk on egg-shells, becuase of how unclear and legally sensitive the situation is.

brianlock wrote:but how much of it is unpublished or "secret" info

Pretty much nothing. Most of it is a summary of the comics published by then. There are some guidelines on the workings of the universe which per se could be seen as partially unpublished, but not secret.

brianlock wrote:Now I'd like to know why it is so vaunted

The original copies as such are rare memoribilia from the Valiant days.

The copies, or to be precise, the contants, I would assume are appreciated because they are the concentration of what we all loved - the tight universe and good writing.

/Magnus

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:31 am

You would think that the new owners would appreciate anything or anybody who was trying to keep interest in a Dead Universe alive. But that's apparently not the case.
From what I understand, both VIP & the new owners watch this board like hawks when it comes to looking for any form of copyright infringements.

Although the original reasons behind the new owners asking me not to print anymore copies of the VCB may not be valid today (due to complex circumstances), there is still a strong will from both sides to curtail any suspected infringements with threat of lawsuit.

There are several ways around the assumed legalities, by changing a few things in the title & content, or giving copies away for free. But since I was doing it at cost & as a favor to the board, it isn't worth my risk to push the issue. I have nothing positive to gain from the endevor that outweighs my potential harm. To be honest, I'm surprised that Greg allowed the sale of John Hickman's copy, given the usually stressful responses to anything involving the VCB anymore.---Steve

Will · Post by **Will** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:37 am

Vault-Keeper wrote:You would think that the new owners would appreciate anything or anybody who was trying to keep interest in a Dead Universe alive. But that's apparently not the case.
From what I understand, both VIP & the new owners watch this board like hawks when it comes to looking for any form of copyright infringements.

Although the original reasons behind the new owners asking me not to print anymore copies of the VCB may not be valid today (due to complex circumstances), there is still a strong will from both sides to curtail any suspected infringements with threat of lawsuit.

There are several ways around the assumed legalities, by changing a few things in the title & content, or giving copies away for free. But since I was doing it at cost & as a favor to the board, it isn't worth my risk to push the issue. I have nothing positive to gain from the endevor that outweighs my potential harm. To be honest, I'm surprised that Greg allowed the sale of John Hickman's copy, given the usually stressful responses to anything involving the VCB anymore.---Steve

True. I guess if I had just dropped $1M on something that VIP--for something like $30--had just turned into a steaming pile of of cow dung, I would act like a [A NOUN], too.

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:54 am

Will wrote:
Vault-Keeper wrote:You would think that the new owners would appreciate anything or anybody who was trying to keep interest in a Dead Universe alive. But that's apparently not the case.
From what I understand, both VIP & the new owners watch this board like hawks when it comes to looking for any form of copyright infringements.

Although the original reasons behind the new owners asking me not to print anymore copies of the VCB may not be valid today (due to complex circumstances), there is still a strong will from both sides to curtail any suspected infringements with threat of lawsuit.

There are several ways around the assumed legalities, by changing a few things in the title & content, or giving copies away for free. But since I was doing it at cost & as a favor to the board, it isn't worth my risk to push the issue. I have nothing positive to gain from the endevor that outweighs my potential harm. To be honest, I'm surprised that Greg allowed the sale of John Hickman's copy, given the usually stressful responses to anything involving the VCB anymore.---Steve
True. I guess if I had just dropped $1M on something that VIP--for something like $30--had just turned into a steaming pile of of cow dung, I would act like a [A NOUN], too.

Without going into details that I'm not at liberty to discuss, let's just say that the situation is more complex than that, Will.

Sure, close to 1 mil might have been spent, but the unrealized potential in various media markets far exceeds that initial cost. My reprinting of a 'glorified' interoffice memo doesn't even register on the map. IMO.

The situation in general will unfold in due time, and hindsight on this part of the process will produce a better understanding of what is currently going on. 'Nuff said.---Steve

Unblessed · Post by **Unblessed** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:03 am

Can someone scan it in and host it on a site? "but that's wrong...."

Rai #0 is hosted on a [nameless] site and Solar #0 was the last time I checked.

~Unblessed

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:10 am

Unblessed wrote:Can someone scan it in and host it on a site? "but that's wrong...."

Rai #0 is hosted on a [nameless] site and Solar #0 was the last time I checked.

~Unblessed

I am unable to scan it, & other parties who could haven't bothered. The Rai #0 & Solar #0 were shut down, the last I knew, due to copyright issues.---Steve

Will · Post by **Will** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:27 am

Vault-Keeper wrote:
Unblessed wrote:Can someone scan it in and host it on a site? "but that's wrong...."

Rai #0 is hosted on a [nameless] site and Solar #0 was the last time I checked.

~Unblessed
I am unable to scan it, & other parties who could haven't bothered. The Rai #0 & Solar #0 were shut down, the last I knew, due to copyright issues.---Steve

And it's a good thing they were. I'd hate it if someone were doing some free advertising for me, too.

DawgPhan · Post by **DawgPhan** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:28 am

Vault-Keeper wrote:You would think that the new owners would appreciate anything or anybody who was trying to keep interest in a Dead Universe alive. But that's apparently not the case.
From what I understand, both VIP & the new owners watch this board like hawks when it comes to looking for any form of copyright infringements.

Although the original reasons behind the new owners asking me not to print anymore copies of the VCB may not be valid today (due to complex circumstances), there is still a strong will from both sides to curtail any suspected infringements with threat of lawsuit.

There are several ways around the assumed legalities, by changing a few things in the title & content, or giving copies away for free. But since I was doing it at cost & as a favor to the board, it isn't worth my risk to push the issue. I have nothing positive to gain from the endevor that outweighs my potential harm. To be honest, I'm surprised that Greg allowed the sale of John Hickman's copy, given the usually stressful responses to anything involving the VCB anymore.---Steve

but Arch's new VCB is apparently getting blessings from everyone...

Vault-Keeper · Post by **Vault-Keeper** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:42 am

DawgPhan wrote:but Arch's new VCB is apparently getting blessings from everyone...

Those circumstances may have changed somewhat. At this point, nothing is a given. Let's just wait and see what happens...---Steve

justin · Post by **justin** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:49 am

Vault-Keeper wrote:
DawgPhan wrote:but Arch's new VCB is apparently getting blessings from everyone...
Those circumstances may have changed somewhat. At this point, nothing is a given. Let's just wait and see what happens...---Steve

The publishing houses know that there is an issue with copyrights. Their attorneys will be hashing that out as they will be in contact with all the parties this year, once I decide which one of the 2 houses will publish it. I have had talks with 2 of them in great detail. Now its just who will do it truest to what Seaborn and I have envisioned it as.

-justin

justin · Post by **justin** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:50 am

DawgPhan wrote:but Arch's new VCB is apparently getting blessings from everyone...

Not everyone!

-j

ckb · Post by **ckb** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:40 am

Well, since no one is posting a "History of the World, Part 1", I guess I will have to contain my rage and do it.

The first "original" VCB turned up when Kevin (and Carol) VanHook gratiously decided to let some of the stuff from their Valiant days go to the fans of the Valiant community. He posted a bunch of great stuff for sale on the board only. One of the items was a spiral bound "Valiant Continuity Bible" that had been his personal copy when at Valiant. Kevin told us that Seaborn had compiled the summary on his computer, and they were printed as necessary to give to employees as a reference. Seaborn was killed in an accident, and the electronic copy had seemingly been "lost in the flood" (Kudos to those who know the musical reference).

I was lucky enough to win Kevin's copy of the Bible. Before sending it to me, Kevin had made 2-3 copies and sent them to board members (I believe for free). The list of people who got copies (as I remember it - don't crucify me if I am wrong, just correct me) are Greg, x-omatic (Chris), and (Edit:) maybe someone else??.

I bought the item without knowing about the duplication, and protested to Kevin, who offered to nix the deal. To me, it was like going into the store and there were two piles of B&W comic books. One pile was the official version, $3.50 each. The other pile was a photocopy of the original and labeled, "Free". Just multiply by 100 and you can ge tthe idea. I decided to go through with it anyway when Kevin happily agreed to provide me with documentation authenticating the book as his personal copy. Future events surrounding the VCB soured me on the whole thing, though, I have have since sold my original to another board member for what I paid. I will leave it to him to identify himself if he wants to.

There was a much shorter but interesting work that came with the VCB, which was called the "Story of the Geomancer". In case you see it mentioned.

Architect was inspired by the contents of the VCB, and worked with Dino (and others I'm sure) to turn it into an Encyclopedia of sorts. Dino went on later to win the Acclaim auction for the Valiant properties. The Encyclopedia may still see print, and you can search through Justin's posts and threads to get tidbits about that project. He is including Seaborn's suviving family in the publishing agreements to do with the project, which is just a great thing.

Sometime later, Bob Layton came visiting and also decided to part with some of his Valiant treasures, KVH style. His personal copy of the VCB was purchased by Vault-Keeper (Steve). Steve went to Kinkos and had 30 (or so) copies printed and bound. These are pretty much identical except for a notation on the front cover. As far as I know - I have not seen a copy. These were sold on the board for $30, which was what Steve computed as his cost for the duplication. They all sold immediately. Steve asked that buyers agree not to resell the copies for more than they had paid.

At least one of the reproductions has been reportedly sold for $200.

The copies of the VCB originating from VanHook and Layton are the only ones from the original Valiant days that have turned up, as far as I know. Edit: Architect reports he obtained an "original" from an unnamed Valiant insider as well. So that's three.

Steve offered to do another printing, but this was later and after the Valiant propertires had been sold. Greg wisely decided that he did not want the board to have any legal problems, and shut down advertising of the sale on these boards. Greg went on to remove other things on the site that might not fall under "fair use", like the full set of scans of the Rai #0 book which had been on the site for many years.

The above is about as factual as I can get, and now I can opine a bit. It is only a matter of time before scans of the contents of the VCB joins the full set of scanned Valiant books that is now a readily available bittorrent. The whole comic industry needs to be headed to a music industry like showdown over their IP and copyrights. Each week almost every major title is scanned and posted on the newsgroups or file sharing sites, and there is no end in sight.

greg · Post by **greg** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:57 am

CKB's summary is accurate as far as my knowledge goes.

This recent sale...
http://www.valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8244
...was posted and completed before I even saw it.
Also, I believe the creation of this copy pre-dates
the sale of the Valiant/Acclaim properties...
so, it's sort of a "that was then" scenario.